Author Topic: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion  (Read 9167 times)

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Offline joncarrfarrelly

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #60 on: March 05, 2019, 07:03:48 pm »
A note about autogiros, the original ones only got in the air because of
forward motion causing air to travel over an aerofoil surface,
in this case the blade aerofoil of the rotary wing. This also why they
retained fixed wings.
 ;D

The next step was the direct-control type that added a rotor spin-up
drive to get the rotor moving while sitting still, but it still required
forward motion to get off the ground, the new rotor designs also
allowed the elimination of fixed wings. The Bensen and Wallis
"gyro-copters" are of this type, they still require forward motion to
take off.

The final addition was the rotor spin-up with pitch control that allowed
for the introduction of "jump take-off", the only type of autogiro that
doesn't require forward motion to leave the ground.

Cheers.
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline joncarrfarrelly

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #61 on: March 05, 2019, 07:51:22 pm »
I've been thinking about WIG (Wing in Ground Effect) Racers.
Single seat Ekranoplans (land or water based or amphibians) racing on an oval,  closed course, cross country or street circuit (Venice?).
They would be fitted with an altitude sensitive cutout which would shut off the engine should they stray too high.
Preliminary doodles are of a Spitfire fuselage with stubby super broad chord wings with severe anhedral.  Semi retractable undercarriage housed in wingtip spats.

Land ekranoplans are pretty much a non-starter, the water-borne ones have a long
take-off run, even with the under-wing blowing. You'd need some strong wheels and a
very long starting lane to try to use the same principle on land, a big oval out
in a desert somewhere would probably also be the only doable type of course.
A street circuit is completely out, and cross-country questionable as one of the big failings
with the ekranoplan type WIG, is that it does very poorly out of ground effect and can't
handle rapid changes in wave height, the latter being why the KM crashed, so flying over
up and down terrain is a recipe for disaster. Also as you can't bank the wing in a turn,
you'll need a ginormous fin and rudder to give enough control authority.

The truth is they're a crap answer to a question no one asked.  :wacko:

That said there have been skirted WIGs suggested, these would have a retractable
hovercraft type skirt for use when right down on the deck, land or water.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US4151893A/en?oq=4151893

“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline loupgarou

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #62 on: March 06, 2019, 12:06:39 am »
A note about autogiros, the original ones only got in the air because of
forward motion causing air to travel over an aerofoil surface,
in this case the blade aerofoil of the rotary wing. This also why they
retained fixed wings.
 ;D

The next step was the direct-control type that added a rotor spin-up
drive to get the rotor moving while sitting still, but it still required
forward motion to get off the ground, the new rotor designs also
allowed the elimination of fixed wings. The Bensen and Wallis
"gyro-copters" are of this type, they still require forward motion to
take off.

The final addition was the rotor spin-up with pitch control that allowed
for the introduction of "jump take-off", the only type of autogiro that
doesn't require forward motion to leave the ground.

Cheers.

So, a question for the mods, after these clarifications:
Are "classic" autogiros allowed here or excluded?
Owing to the current financial difficulties, the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice.

Offline zenrat

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #63 on: March 06, 2019, 01:39:09 am »
Autogiros are certainly unconventional enough in my book.

I've been thinking about WIG (Wing in Ground Effect) Racers.
Single seat Ekranoplans (land or water based or amphibians) racing on an oval,  closed course, cross country or street circuit (Venice?).
They would be fitted with an altitude sensitive cutout which would shut off the engine should they stray too high.
Preliminary doodles are of a Spitfire fuselage with stubby super broad chord wings with severe anhedral.  Semi retractable undercarriage housed in wingtip spats.

Land ekranoplans are pretty much a non-starter... yadda yadda yadda...

Yeah, but nah.  I reject all your logical arguments in favour of my imagination.
 :mellow:
Take for example the Melbourne Ekranoplan Grand Prix.
The racing ekranoplans take off on a very long straight stretch of the Monash Freeway on the outskirts of town which in later laps doubles as a high speed straight.  They exit down a slip road which leads into the street section of the race that takes them twisting and turning between the highrise buildings of the CBD to docklands at which point they take to the water.  Heading downstream they pass beneath the Westgate Bridge before heading out into Port Phillip Bay.  Following a straight run to The Heads they then turn left and hug the coast up The Peninsula passing Sorrento, Portsea, Rye, Rosebud, McRae, Blairgowrie and Dromana before heading inland along the Southern slopes of Mount Martha at Safety Beach.  They then follow a complicated cross country route North rejoining the Monash at Packenham before heading West back towards town for the completion of the lap.
All the racers would start at once (rather than do timed laps) with the first past the post the winner.
When banking in a turn it would not be unusual for the wingtip pods to come into contact with the ground/water which is why the main wheels do not fully retract and are usually mounted at an angle to the vertical.  They all obviously have huge rudders (thanks for the tip, I hadn't thought of that design cue :thumbsup:)
Part of the skill of handling a racing ekranoplan is anticipating changes in the profile of the surface by climbing to maximum height so as to cope with the change without crashing (but not too high or the altitude limiter will cut the engine).

Think of it like the Pod Race in Phantom Menace with Ekranoplans instead of pods.

A rummage in my Wings and Fuselages parts box has resulted in some inner sections of Lancaster wing and a number of possible fuselages including a Spitfire, a Mystere IV and a Viggen...

 :wacko:
« Last Edit: March 06, 2019, 02:39:18 am by zenrat »
Fred

Another ill conceived, lazily thought out, crudely executed and badly painted piece of half arsed what-if modelling muppetry from zenrat industries.

My name is Commander William Riker.  Take me to your women.

Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #64 on: March 06, 2019, 02:14:04 am »

So, a question for the mods, after these clarifications:
Are "classic" autogiros allowed here or excluded?


I'll check with my fellow mod, but I'm inclined to go for it.

This is a VERY generously modded GB after all, and a few mere physical facts shouldn't get in the way of some creative modelling.  ;D
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline NARSES2

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #65 on: March 06, 2019, 06:08:42 am »

So, a question for the mods, after these clarifications:
Are "classic" autogiros allowed here or excluded?

Me and Kit have conversed and the answer is......Yes they are included  :thumbsup:

It is almost impossible to write a set of rules for this build when it comes to what is or what is not allowed. Anything written would immediately draw a response of "ah but in the case of the .....". So I'm basically going to work on the basis of "if it looks odd, or unusual or manages to do what it does by slightly unusual means" then it stands a good chance of being o.k.

At the end of the day we just want people to take part and enjoy themselves. Also there will undoubtedly be GB's in the next season which have quite strict frameworks quite naturally.

Chris
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Offline loupgarou

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #66 on: March 06, 2019, 09:53:09 am »

So, a question for the mods, after these clarifications:
Are "classic" autogiros allowed here or excluded?

Me and Kit have conversed and the answer is......Yes they are included  :thumbsup:

It is almost impossible to write a set of rules for this build when it comes to what is or what is not allowed. Anything written would immediately draw a response of "ah but in the case of the .....". So I'm basically going to work on the basis of "if it looks odd, or unusual or manages to do what it does by slightly unusual means" then it stands a good chance of being o.k.

At the end of the day we just want people to take part and enjoy themselves. Also there will undoubtedly be GB's in the next season which have quite strict frameworks quite naturally.

Chris

Thanks for your kind words, most esteemed moderators. :bow:
I'll try to complete a build this time.  :rolleyes: ;D
Owing to the current financial difficulties, the light at the end of the tunnel will be turned off until further notice.

Offline joncarrfarrelly

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #67 on: March 06, 2019, 01:39:14 pm »
Fred, regarding your concept, you’d probably need either a single large fin and rudder
mounted at roughly the center of the vehicle, or two separate mounted fwd and aft.
A single assembly mounted at the tail ala an aircraft wouldn’t give enough control authority,
or act quickly enough to turn your racer.
Ships and aircraft generally have lots of room to turn so it’s not as much of an issue, also
it wasn’t unusual in the age of the high-power single step hydro to have the rudder mounted
forward of amidships, for a faster reactiontime in turns. Gar Wood’s Miss America X, had
a single rudder fwd, Segrave’s Miss England II had two rudders, one at the stern and one fwd.

“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline kerick

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #68 on: March 06, 2019, 08:42:53 pm »
I was watching some hydroplane drag racing a couple of days ago. As they just went in a straight line that would solve a lot of the control problems if applied to the WIG concept.



Some had small rudders and some had none at all.
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Offline zenrat

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #69 on: March 07, 2019, 01:39:11 am »
Fred, regarding your concept, you’d probably need either a single large fin and rudder
mounted at roughly the center of the vehicle, or two separate mounted fwd and aft.
A single assembly mounted at the tail ala an aircraft wouldn’t give enough control authority,
or act quickly enough to turn your racer.
Ships and aircraft generally have lots of room to turn so it’s not as much of an issue, also
it wasn’t unusual in the age of the high-power single step hydro to have the rudder mounted
forward of amidships, for a faster reactiontime in turns. Gar Wood’s Miss America X, had
a single rudder fwd, Segrave’s Miss England II had two rudders, one at the stern and one fwd.



Thanks for the input Jon.  If I build this it'll be heavily biased towards the "looks right - is right" PoV rather than being feasible technically.
I've done some sketches and a P-47 with a huge rearward rudder and stubby wings looks good to me.
Mind you, a Viggen wth a fin & rudder at each end, hmmmm...
Fred

Another ill conceived, lazily thought out, crudely executed and badly painted piece of half arsed what-if modelling muppetry from zenrat industries.

My name is Commander William Riker.  Take me to your women.

Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #70 on: March 07, 2019, 05:37:19 am »

A single assembly mounted at the tail ala an aircraft wouldn’t give enough control authority,
or act quickly enough to turn your racer.
Ships and aircraft generally have lots of room to turn so it’s not as much of an issue, also
it wasn’t unusual in the age of the high-power single step hydro to have the rudder mounted
forward of amidships, for a faster reactiontime in turns. Gar Wood’s Miss America X, had
a single rudder fwd, Segrave’s Miss England II had two rudders, one at the stern and one fwd.


My fave powerboat of al time, Sony Levi's Delta 28, was woefully unstable as well as being well overpowered and was prone to swap ends while running at speeds of 65 knots or more. I saw it do just that once and it was frightening, goodness knows how the crew survived.  :o

Levi 'updated' it with a MONSTER fin on the stern in an attempt to solve the problem, and it had absolutely no effect whatsoever! That was back in the 60s however so there's more knowledge about such things these days.

Levi solved the problem eventually by radically lengthening the waterline with a 'ram bow', and I've been building an R/C model of Delta 28 in that configuration for at least the last 10 yrs............  :banghead:



With fin.




With ram bow.

Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline joncarrfarrelly

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #71 on: March 07, 2019, 11:21:45 am »
 Thanks for sharing that Kit. :thumbsup:
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Online McColm

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #72 on: March 08, 2019, 01:50:24 am »
I won't be submitting my Heliplane kitbash in this group build as it's too near completion.
Whereas the Martin Marina just needs a shorter rotor blade to avoid hitting the twin tail fins,  I've used three for the Heliplane which come from the 1/72 Mil-26 Halo kit. Just need to find the other two.

Offline wacek85

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #73 on: March 09, 2019, 06:57:57 am »
Jet-Prop An-2 named LALA-1


Offline zenrat

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Re: The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB - Discussion
« Reply #74 on: March 10, 2019, 03:31:09 am »
Ornithopters.






Has anyone here tried making fabric covereded wings by laying PVA soaked tissue over a framework?
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 03:35:36 am by zenrat »
Fred

Another ill conceived, lazily thought out, crudely executed and badly painted piece of half arsed what-if modelling muppetry from zenrat industries.

My name is Commander William Riker.  Take me to your women.