Contemporary Crusades

[John Howling Mouse]

ooooooo, can you imagine the artistic treatment the bone-domes could get on both sides?  The Black Knight, Saracen headgear....

[BlackOps]

So would the frankish main emblem be the crescent? and would it be green or white in a field of green? have a few ideas but want to get it right


Jeff G.

[Daryl J.]

Just had a totally bonkers idea.....

Why not build the frontage to an aircraft hanger in "Gothic" fashion, like cathedrals???
Cool with a "Spitfire" in front, eh

Radish,

I wish you could see this ''temple'' done with bits and pieces of P-38's and P-51's done by someone up in Seattle.  It was spectacular.

Terry......do you have a picture?



Daryl J.

[jcf]

So would the frankish main emblem be the crescent? and would it be green or white in a field of green? have a few ideas but want to get it right


Jeff G.

Franks is what the Moslems called the Crusaders. Technically the Franks were the Norman and French knights but the name was applied to all of the Western Xtian knights, the Byzantines were called Greeks by both the Moslems and the Franks.

So no, the Frankish symbol would not be the crescent of Islam, but rather the Cross of Christ.

Cheers, Jon

[Radish]

I reckon the Franks/Christians would use the Cross as their symbol in a huge variety of ways, reflecting the time, origin, Order, etc..

The Muslim Forces might use the Black Flag? Like the Turkish Air Force in WW1, a black square or rectangle. Easy to make and do.
That's what my chappies will fly under....perhaps with Arabic slogans on the sides of the fuselage (like Syrian/Egyptian tanks?) and how about long black streamers from interplane struts or radio masts?

Let's remember, in the spirit of the times, there were all sorts of local alliances, agreements, negotiations.....as ever, it was pragmaticism that usually won the day.

Well......

got the fuselage together on my "Spit", and while waiting......started another. The benefit of a huge "stash" that's gradually eroding.

More sales coming soon too.  

[NARSES2]

Also lets posit that the Western Xtians left Byzantium alone thus in later years it was better able to resist the Moslem armies and didn't eventually fall to the Ottoman. How would the aerial cataphracts of Byzantium appear and what would they fly? Bearing in mind that the armies of Byzantium were the direct heirs of Rome. While the city of Rome fell in the early 5th century and the Western Empire finally collapsed in 476, the Eastern Empire survived until the final fall of Constantinople in 1453.

I've long thought that strong, relatively stable Byzantium surviving up to modern times would have produced an entirely different Middle East.

Cheers, Jon

The decline of Byzantium can really be traced back to the defeat at Antioch in 1071. A Middle Eastern "Hastings" in that it changed forever the nature of the area. There were some recoveries after that but the fall of Byzantium to the Fourth Crusade in 1204 was the percursor to the "final" decline. However an alliance between the Crusaders and the Byzantines (which happened in the Second Crusade I think) would be nteresting, but unlikely given the Byzantines previous dealings with the Norman's in Italy & Sicily.

If Byzantium had retained or recovered Anatolia then there is no rise of the Ottomans, and that gets very intersting as you say  B)

As for Byzantine cataphracts  

Chris

[nev]

Well of course the Crusades were instigated by the Byzantine Emperor requesting help from the Pope in resisting Turkish expansion.

Like Chris said, Manzikert, then the loss of Anatolia (and their farmer-soldiers) then the 4th Crusades, coupled with the endless round of in-fighting and civil wars, did Byzantium in.  The sad part is that they had some decent rulers towards the end, but it was too late by then.

So Terry, (just to add some intrest), how does the reformation fit into your AH?  Perhaps some Protestant fighters on the side of the Muslims, the old "better an infidel than a heretic" rule    

[Radish]

Been thinking a bit about the Reformation and Counter Reformation.
Would the latter have been a necessity? You know, everything united under one Chrurch....except that there were the Orthodox Churches of Greece and Russia too, that have had their "spats".

Also, eventually, at least one Grand Master of the Teutonic Knights converted to protestantism.
Remember too, El Cid in Spain had Muslim allies as well as Christian ones.

Pragmatism ruled the day, as it does nowdays.
"The Loonies" have their moments, but eventually loose out until their next moment of inspiration or so on.

Buggar all the story stuff....that can be made to fit anytime....build bloody models!

Been checking through my horde of decals....masses that I can adapt, and I must get rid of some too.
bearing in mind that I've lots of German stuff, I can see lots of Teutonic Knights aircraft (and AFVs) appearing, as well as various English, Scottish, Welsh and French Knight aircraft.
What about Americans?
Can they get in on the act?

Basically the Knight Orders were mercenaries, payment being in a saved soul, so why not?

i need some more Portuguese insignia eventually, but that's not a problem as plenty are around. I've enough for 6 or 7 aircraft anyway.
German decals....better to not ask!!

So then, I reckon I might buy some of those shieldy decals, Chris.....useful as coats of arms. every Knight, of course, will have a family crest.
Got some on a decal sheet I bought for lorries....yes, LORRIES, about 10 years ago. Amazing.

[nev]

What about Americans?
Can they get in on the act?

Hey, someones gotta discover the new world eventually.....

[NARSES2]

Well of course the Crusades were instigated by the Byzantine Emperor requesting help from the Pope in resisting Turkish expansion.

Like Chris said, Manzikert, then the loss of Anatolia (and their farmer-soldiers) then the 4th Crusades, coupled with the endless round of in-fighting and civil wars, did Byzantium in.  The sad part is that they had some decent rulers towards the end, but it was too late by then.

Got to agree there Nev (why did I type Antioc rather then Manzikert  :dum: ) A strong Byzantium is an interesting starting point for an Alt History book I would have though. Anyone know if one has been done ?

Chris - who's third favourite wargames army is Nikephorian Byzantine (Cataphracs and Clibnari)

No 2 is Rennaisance Persian - Lots of Super Heavy Cavalry in the Sassinian tradition

No 1 is Khiat Liao - all those quardruple armed heavy Cataphract types  

[Radish]

Should get "Spitfire number one" built today, so I can spray it with white primer tomorrow.
I'll "sort" the final choice of scheme in a while, but it'll probably feature the red cross on the fuselage, as per the excellent artwork, a white tail having similar features.
The forward fuselage sash will be gold outlined in red and there'll be a red lion within it. The red lion is repeated but smaller on the fin/rudder.
Spinner is red and gold.
All high gloss, but slightly weathered....undersurfaces matt Azure Blue.
 

[Radish]

Forgot to say.....there's some guards and possible groundcrew too....bought a set of Games Workshop Bretagne infantry....which as a sheet of DECALS!!! Yippee, lots available as emblems for Crusader aircraft!
       

[GeorgeC]

Clearly, the F105, the Buccaneer and the VC10 are the inheritors of the cataphract tradition.  Careful examination of the some of the structural components of the latter 2 aircraft reveals them to be interchangeable with medieval plate armour, if somewhat heavier...

Regards

GeorgeC  

[Radish]

A plate armoured F-105 has some terrific appeal, certainly.

I've been waylaid tonight with a few things, but the brain is ticking over....a bit like having Versuvious within the skull....and something startlung might pop out in a day or two.

Until then....plastic, plastic, plastic  

[jcf]

Speaking of Byzantine Cataphracts...howzabout a "Greek" A1-H Skyraider with the applique armour picked out in burnished steel on a gold-coloured, red-trimmed airframe?

Cheers, Jon