Vautours for the RAF ?

[NARSES2]

I've posted this in my Blog but thought I'd stick a copy here as well.

Whilst looking at Hannants New Releases yesterday I noticed that SH have re-issued their Vautour. Now I've always liked the Vautour and indeed have 2 in the stash, one SH and the other a Hi-Tech kit, and spotting the re-issue got the brain cells working.

So, what if post WWII the Brits and French had got together and formed an actual partnership, with full co-operation in all matters, political, ecconomic and military ? I know it's the most unlikeliest scenario possible, but this is Wiff-World right ?    So the French have Canberra's in the high altitude role and we have Vautours in the interdiction and ground attack roles ? One of mine may well get RAF roundels.

As an aside, when the ECSC (European Coal & Steel Community) was founded Churchill was one of the driving forces as he believed that if France and Germany could co-operate in these such strategic industries than the chances of them going to war would be greatly reduced. Unfortunately by the time the Treaty of Paris was signed he'd been unable to convince his fellow Brits that we should be part of it. The Treaty of Paris was signed in 1951, Treaty of Rome (Common Market) 1957.

[Beermonster58]

Nice idea . I always liked the look of the one with long ,pointy nose! Might look good with four Red Tops etc hanging off the wings. I've also been mulling over the idea of stuffing a couple Spey exhausts  into the hot end of a Mirage IV, ditching the fuselage radome and, giving it a nose mounted radar etc. I believe there WAS an actual proposal for a Spey engined Mirage IV?

[Gondor]

I take it that you're talking about the Vautour. I intend to do one of mine as an Indian Air Force aircraft, which some people punters at shows will think is real.

[PR19_Kit]

I believe there WAS an actual proposal for a Spey engined Mirage IV?

Indeed there was, but it came to naught, as with many such interesting ideas.

[Accidental Loggie]

It's uncanny 😎.  I have 2 SH kits in the stash for RAF use, along the lines you mention: the IIN fighter version will sport Javelin sqn markings and the IIB bomber version will have Canberra sqn markings.  Or possibly showing half l'Armee de l'Air / half RAF markings as an example of a bi-country OCU, along TTTE lines.

And I've got a Heller Mirage IVB and some metal Speys earmarked for connection and subsequent RAF service: probably selected to replace the Valiant following its withdrawal from service after the main spar problems.

[Weaver]

The French actually had quite a few Canberras in real life.

I had a similar idea but in a later timeframe. The Panavia nations (UK, Italy, Germany) all have an excellent strike aircraft, the Tornado, which makes an indifferent fighter, and they all need new fighters. The French have excellent fighters, the Mirage 2000 and 4000, but they can't afford to develop the latter on their own and the former makes an indifferent strike aircraft that's no substitute for a Mirage IV as an ASMP platform.

So a deal is struck: France buys pretty-much off-the shelf, complete Tornados from Panavia production lines for the Force de Frappe, while the Panavia nations buy Mirage 2000s and/or 4000s according to their needs as unfinished "green" airframes which they then complete with much local equipment. Why the difference? Numbers: the French only need about 200 Tornados, while the Panavia nations need about 800 fighters. The UK buys 160 4000s instead of the Tornado ADV, the Germans buy all 2000s to replace Starfighters instead of upgrading the F-4Fs, and Italy buys a mixture of both: 2000s for national air defence and 4000s to escort their Tornados far out over the Med. A similar deal is done on missiles, with BAe's excellent Skyflash seeker head mated to MATRA's blisteringly high performance Super R530D airframe.

I have the kits...

[Weaver]

Nice idea . I always liked the look of the one with long ,pointy nose! Might look good with four Red Tops etc hanging off the wings. I've also been mulling over the idea of stuffing a couple Spey exhausts  into the hot end of a Mirage IV, ditching the fuselage radome and, giving it a nose mounted radar etc. I believe there WAS an actual proposal for a Spey engined Mirage IV?

There was such a proposal, but it was a lot more complicated than just an engine swap. The fuselage was longer and re-contoured, the intakes were bigger, and they were situated much further forward on the airframe (just behind the rear cockpit) even allowing for the fuselage stretch.

[zenrat]

I got an SH example.  It'll be RAAF.  Some sort of package deal with the Mirages.

[chrisonord]

I like the vautour also, and have an IDF version in the stash. Mine was to become a Honduras air force version, either an electronic warfare aircraft, or a standoff missile platform. Or it could get l Ioaded out with rocket pods and gun pods, with some additional pylons. RAF versions do have my saw dust churning though 

[PR19_Kit]

I started to build a PR Vautour some years ago, which rather oddly needed MUCH longer wings  , but it rather fell at the 2nd or 3rd fence as I hadn't looked at the instructions properly and did something silly with the landing gear setup.

It was so long ago I can't remember what I did, and can't find the model now either. 

[PR19_Kit]

[Later] Ah, found the build thread, such as it is, it's here.

https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=45033.msg803472#msg803472

I didn't get too far with doing anything with it, so perhaps I better set to and FIND it!

[Gondor]

The French actually had quite a few Canberras in real life.

I had a similar idea but in a later timeframe. The Panavia nations (UK, Italy, Germany) all have an excellent strike aircraft, the Tornado, which makes an indifferent fighter, and they all need new fighters. The French have excellent fighters, the Mirage 2000 and 4000, but htey can't afford to devleop the latter on their own and the former makes an indifferent strike aircraft that's no substitute for a Mirage IV as an ASMP platform.

So a deal is struck: France buys pretty-much off-the shelf, complete Tornados from Panaiva production lines for the Force de Frappe, while the Panavia nations buy Mirage 2000s and/or 4000s according to their needs as unfinished "green" airframes which they then complete with much local equipment. Why the difference? Numbers: the French only need about 200 Tornados, while the Panavia nations need about 800 fighters. The UK buys 160 4000s instead of the Tornado ADV, the Germans buy all 2000s to replace Starfighters instead of upgrading the F-4Fs, and italy buys a mixture of both: 2000s for national air defence and 4000s to escort their Tornados far out over the Med. A similar deal is done on missiles, with BAe's excellent Skyflash seeker head mated to MATRA's blisteringly high performance Super R530D airframe.

I have the kits...

I have a 4000 that I am very, very slowly converting into a two-seater for the Force de Frappe. Mine will have a "modified" Exocet missile hung under it.

[The Rat]

So, what if post WWII the Brits and French had got together and formed an actual partnership, with full co-operation in all matters, political, ecconomic and military ? I know it's the most unlikeliest scenario possible, but this is Wiff-World right ?   

There was that "recent and regrettable bit of Gallic impertinence" in 1066, but I'm sure that things could be smoothed over.

("recent and regrettable bit of Gallic impertinence" is a quote from a short story by Arthur C. Clarke  )

[Gondor]

So, what if post WWII the Brits and French had got together and formed an actual partnership, with full co-operation in all matters, political, ecconomic and military ? I know it's the most unlikeliest scenario possible, but this is Wiff-World right ?   

There was that "recent and regrettable bit of Gallic impertinence" in 1066, but I'm sure that things could be smoothed over.

("recent and regrettable bit of Gallic impertinence" is a quote from a short story by Arthur C. Clarke  )

There was still that slight problem of when the King of England owned more of France than the French king did.

[Weaver]

The French actually had quite a few Canberras in real life.

I had a similar idea but in a later timeframe. The Panavia nations (UK, Italy, Germany) all have an excellent strike aircraft, the Tornado, which makes an indifferent fighter, and they all need new fighters. The French have excellent fighters, the Mirage 2000 and 4000, but htey can't afford to devleop the latter on their own and the former makes an indifferent strike aircraft that's no substitute for a Mirage IV as an ASMP platform.

So a deal is struck: France buys pretty-much off-the shelf, complete Tornados from Panaiva production lines for the Force de Frappe, while the Panavia nations buy Mirage 2000s and/or 4000s according to their needs as unfinished "green" airframes which they then complete with much local equipment. Why the difference? Numbers: the French only need about 200 Tornados, while the Panavia nations need about 800 fighters. The UK buys 160 4000s instead of the Tornado ADV, the Germans buy all 2000s to replace Starfighters instead of upgrading the F-4Fs, and italy buys a mixture of both: 2000s for national air defence and 4000s to escort their Tornados far out over the Med. A similar deal is done on missiles, with BAe's excellent Skyflash seeker head mated to MATRA's blisteringly high performance Super R530D airframe.

I have the kits...

I have a 4000 that I am very, very slowly converting into a two-seater for the Force de Frappe. Mine will have a "modified" Exocet missile hung under it.

How are you doing yours?

I want mine to be an RAF two-seater: my very tentative plan is to use an F-15B/D canopy, but it's not straight-forward as the latter has a small solid section at the back which most kits mold in with the fuselage. So far I haven't managed to pick up an F-15B/D that's cheap enough to butcher.

Before somebody says it, no, you can't use a Mirage 2000B/D/N canopy. The 4000 doesn't have a spine like the 2000: it's more of a true bubble that sits on top of the fuselage, very reminiscent of a single-seat F-15.