Vautours for the RAF ?

[PR19_Kit]

Those small solid bit at the back of a canopy are relatively easy to scratch up with a few laminated layers of styrene. I've done 2-3 in the last few years, the most recent on my RAF B-51 Master that's still in build. And if you make them you're not limited to the shape that comes with the original kit too, you can fair it into a spine, or down to the fuselage top level, or whatever.

[Weaver]

Those small solid bit at the back of a canopy are relatively easy to scratch up with a few laminated layers of styrene. I've done 2-3 in the last few years, the most recent on my RAF B-51 Master that's still in build. And if you make them you're not limited to the shape that comes with the original kit too, you can fair it into a spine, or down to the fuselage top level, or whatever.

Well I might have just solved it by ordering an Italeri F-15E from Ebay for a reasonable price. Looking at the parts breakdown, this particular kit has the section behind the canopy moulded as a separate piece (presumably so they can make -As and -Cs using mostly the same moulds. Now as it happens, the Mirage 4000 has a squared-off section of opaque fuselage in the same place that elevates with the canopy, so the Modelsvit kit has a squared-off hole in the top which might be just right to drop in the Italeri F-15E bit.

What I can't really tell is if the width is right, but comparing the 4000 canopy to an F-15A one I've got, it looks pretty close.

[Weaver]

One of the Vautour prototypes was produced with Sapphire engines and another with Avons, presumably for comparison. Either of those might form the basis of an RAF version. With Canberras and Hunters coming out of their ears, it's hard to see the RAF wanting the bomber or attack versions, but you might very well imagine them going for the IIN night fighter version over the Javelin.

[Beermonster58]

Nice idea . I always liked the look of the one with long ,pointy nose! Might look good with four Red Tops etc hanging off the wings. I've also been mulling over the idea of stuffing a couple Spey exhausts  into the hot end of a Mirage IV, ditching the fuselage radome and, giving it a nose mounted radar etc. I believe there WAS an actual proposal for a Spey engined Mirage IV?

There was such a proposal, but it was a lot more complicated than just an engine swap. The fuselage was longer and re-contoured, the intakes were bigger, and they were situated much further forward on the airframe (just behind the rear cockpit) even allowing for the fuselage stretch.

Details! Mere details!     . Yes, I get all that but, I'm not interested in rebuilding the model a la Spey Phantom! I just want something that will look the part.  

[Weaver]

Nice idea . I always liked the look of the one with long ,pointy nose! Might look good with four Red Tops etc hanging off the wings. I've also been mulling over the idea of stuffing a couple Spey exhausts  into the hot end of a Mirage IV, ditching the fuselage radome and, giving it a nose mounted radar etc. I believe there WAS an actual proposal for a Spey engined Mirage IV?

There was such a proposal, but it was a lot more complicated than just an engine swap. The fuselage was longer and re-contoured, the intakes were bigger, and they were situated much further forward on the airframe (just behind the rear cockpit) even allowing for the fuselage stretch.

Details! Mere details!     . Yes, I get all that but, I'm not interested in rebuilding the model a la Spey Phantom! I just want something that will look the part.  

Fair enough: it's fine to ignore inconvenient facts in the interests of building a cool whiff (and MUCH better than not building it because you didn't ignore them), but I always think it's good to understand which facts you're ignoring. Apart from anything else, it makes it easier to come up with some flumoxing BS story to derail a JMN who's having a go at you over "accuracy" at a show. 

[PR19_Kit]

Apart from anything else, it makes it easier to come up with some flumoxing BS story to derail a JMN who's having a go at you over "accuracy" at a show. 

Our models are ALWAYS 100% accurate, absolutely identical to the thoughts that generated them in the first place! 

And we, the builders, are THE expert on that particular model anyway, by definition..............

[Weaver]

Apart from anything else, it makes it easier to come up with some flumoxing BS story to derail a JMN who's having a go at you over "accuracy" at a show. 

Our models are ALWAYS 100% accurate, absolutely identical to the thoughts that generated them in the first place! 

And we, the builders, are THE expert on that particular model anyway, by definition..............

Or as I like to put it: "every model in this show is inaccurate: they're all seventy-two times too small* and made from plastic."




*Apart from the ones that are even more wrong by being forty-eight times, thirty-two-times, twenty-four times, or a hundred and forty-four time too small, of course...  

[NARSES2]

So, what if post WWII the Brits and French had got together and formed an actual partnership, with full co-operation in all matters, political, ecconomic and military ? I know it's the most unlikeliest scenario possible, but this is Wiff-World right ?   

There was that "recent and regrettable bit of Gallic impertinence" in 1066, but I'm sure that things could be smoothed over.

("recent and regrettable bit of Gallic impertinence" is a quote from a short story by Arthur C. Clarke  )

But were the Norman's French. They were vassals to the French king, but that doesn't necessarily make them French 

[NARSES2]

I take it that you're talking about the Vautour. I intend to do one of mine as an Indian Air Force aircraft, which some people punters at shows will think is real.

Oops, corrected. Cheers sir 

[Old Wombat]

So, what if post WWII the Brits and French had got together and formed an actual partnership, with full co-operation in all matters, political, ecconomic and military ? I know it's the most unlikeliest scenario possible, but this is Wiff-World right ?   

There was that "recent and regrettable bit of Gallic impertinence" in 1066, but I'm sure that things could be smoothed over.

("recent and regrettable bit of Gallic impertinence" is a quote from a short story by Arthur C. Clarke  )

But were the Norman's French. They were vassals to the French king, but that doesn't necessarily make them French 

By & large, genetically, yes, they were. Well, more French than Norse, anyway.

This is what happens when the invaders primarily displace the local ruling class, then intermarry with the ruling class of the neighbouring states/provinces.

The Norman peasants were almost purely French.

[Beermonster58]

Nice idea . I always liked the look of the one with long ,pointy nose! Might look good with four Red Tops etc hanging off the wings. I've also been mulling over the idea of stuffing a couple Spey exhausts  into the hot end of a Mirage IV, ditching the fuselage radome and, giving it a nose mounted radar etc. I believe there WAS an actual proposal for a Spey engined Mirage IV?

There was such a proposal, but it was a lot more complicated than just an engine swap. The fuselage was longer and re-contoured, the intakes were bigger, and they were situated much further forward on the airframe (just behind the rear cockpit) even allowing for the fuselage stretch.

Details! Mere details!     . Yes, I get all that but, I'm not interested in rebuilding the model a la Spey Phantom! I just want something that will look the part.  

Fair enough: it's fine to ignore inconvenient facts in the interests of building a cool whiff (and MUCH better than not building it because you didn't ignore them), but I always think it's good to understand which facts you're ignoring. Apart from anything else, it makes it easier to come up with some flumoxing BS story to derail a JMN who's having a go at you over "accuracy" at a show. 

I like your thinking!, 😂😂. I'm all for derailing JMNs👍😂.
I'm happy to compromise on the Mirage. It shouldn't be too difficult to lengthen the fuselage at least! I'll worry about the rest later.

[Weaver]

Nice idea . I always liked the look of the one with long ,pointy nose! Might look good with four Red Tops etc hanging off the wings. I've also been mulling over the idea of stuffing a couple Spey exhausts  into the hot end of a Mirage IV, ditching the fuselage radome and, giving it a nose mounted radar etc. I believe there WAS an actual proposal for a Spey engined Mirage IV?

There was such a proposal, but it was a lot more complicated than just an engine swap. The fuselage was longer and re-contoured, the intakes were bigger, and they were situated much further forward on the airframe (just behind the rear cockpit) even allowing for the fuselage stretch.

Details! Mere details!     . Yes, I get all that but, I'm not interested in rebuilding the model a la Spey Phantom! I just want something that will look the part.  

Fair enough: it's fine to ignore inconvenient facts in the interests of building a cool whiff (and MUCH better than not building it because you didn't ignore them), but I always think it's good to understand which facts you're ignoring. Apart from anything else, it makes it easier to come up with some flumoxing BS story to derail a JMN who's having a go at you over "accuracy" at a show. 

I like your thinking!, 😂😂. I'm all for derailing JMNs👍😂.
I'm happy to compromise on the Mirage. It shouldn't be too difficult to lengthen the fuselage at least! I'll worry about the rest later.

This is from Damien Burke's TSR.2 book IIRC:





Secret Projects Thread here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/the-spey-mirage.4353/

[kerick]

The French actually had quite a few Canberras in real life.

I had a similar idea but in a later timeframe. The Panavia nations (UK, Italy, Germany) all have an excellent strike aircraft, the Tornado, which makes an indifferent fighter, and they all need new fighters. The French have excellent fighters, the Mirage 2000 and 4000, but htey can't afford to devleop the latter on their own and the former makes an indifferent strike aircraft that's no substitute for a Mirage IV as an ASMP platform.

So a deal is struck: France buys pretty-much off-the shelf, complete Tornados from Panaiva production lines for the Force de Frappe, while the Panavia nations buy Mirage 2000s and/or 4000s according to their needs as unfinished "green" airframes which they then complete with much local equipment. Why the difference? Numbers: the French only need about 200 Tornados, while the Panavia nations need about 800 fighters. The UK buys 160 4000s instead of the Tornado ADV, the Germans buy all 2000s to replace Starfighters instead of upgrading the F-4Fs, and italy buys a mixture of both: 2000s for national air defence and 4000s to escort their Tornados far out over the Med. A similar deal is done on missiles, with BAe's excellent Skyflash seeker head mated to MATRA's blisteringly high performance Super R530D airframe.

I have the kits...

Do it! I demand that you do this thing!
(You know you want to!)

[Weaver]

The French actually had quite a few Canberras in real life.

I had a similar idea but in a later timeframe. The Panavia nations (UK, Italy, Germany) all have an excellent strike aircraft, the Tornado, which makes an indifferent fighter, and they all need new fighters. The French have excellent fighters, the Mirage 2000 and 4000, but htey can't afford to devleop the latter on their own and the former makes an indifferent strike aircraft that's no substitute for a Mirage IV as an ASMP platform.

So a deal is struck: France buys pretty-much off-the shelf, complete Tornados from Panaiva production lines for the Force de Frappe, while the Panavia nations buy Mirage 2000s and/or 4000s according to their needs as unfinished "green" airframes which they then complete with much local equipment. Why the difference? Numbers: the French only need about 200 Tornados, while the Panavia nations need about 800 fighters. The UK buys 160 4000s instead of the Tornado ADV, the Germans buy all 2000s to replace Starfighters instead of upgrading the F-4Fs, and italy buys a mixture of both: 2000s for national air defence and 4000s to escort their Tornados far out over the Med. A similar deal is done on missiles, with BAe's excellent Skyflash seeker head mated to MATRA's blisteringly high performance Super R530D airframe.

I have the kits...

Do it! I demand that you do this thing!
(You know you want to!)

The trouble is that I have half-a hundred other equally compelling projects, including the ones I started but didn't finish.

Still, there is more time at the moment...

[Beermonster58]

Nice idea . I always liked the look of the one with long ,pointy nose! Might look good with four Red Tops etc hanging off the wings. I've also been mulling over the idea of stuffing a couple Spey exhausts  into the hot end of a Mirage IV, ditching the fuselage radome and, giving it a nose mounted radar etc. I believe there WAS an actual proposal for a Spey engined Mirage IV?

There was such a proposal, but it was a lot more complicated than just an engine swap. The fuselage was longer and re-contoured, the intakes were bigger, and they were situated much further forward on the airframe (just behind the rear cockpit) even allowing for the fuselage stretch.

Details! Mere details!     . Yes, I get all that but, I'm not interested in rebuilding the model a la Spey Phantom! I just want something that will look the part.  

Fair enough: it's fine to ignore inconvenient facts in the interests of building a cool whiff (and MUCH better than not building it because you didn't ignore them), but I always think it's good to understand which facts you're ignoring. Apart from anything else, it makes it easier to come up with some flumoxing BS story to derail a JMN who's having a go at you over "accuracy" at a show. 

I like your thinking!, 😂😂. I'm all for derailing JMNs👍😂.
I'm happy to compromise on the Mirage. It shouldn't be too difficult to lengthen the fuselage at least! I'll worry about the rest later.

This is from Damien Burke's TSR.2 book IIRC:





Secret Projects Thread here: https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/the-spey-mirage.4353/

Thanks for the info   I can lengthen the fuselage, that will be quite noticeable but, increasing the fuselage depth I'd ignore. An increase in depth  of 7.5 cm per the article isn't going to be visible  in 1/48 scale (except for JMNs) so, it isn't worth bothering about (not for me anyway!   . I'm anticipating fit issues with the Spey exhausts but, I'll worry about that when it happens!