General Discussion

[Wardukw]

Speaking of cruiser subs, four USN designs from 1920.

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Hmmm ..how many bad ideas can be found in those plans I wonder 🤔 😏

[Wardukw]

I don't know about you blokes but it's the 1st of March here tomorrow   

[kerick]

Those cruiser subs look like the first time they submerged would be the last time. And then the aircraft carrier subs. Gee, why not combine them. That'll work!

[PR19_Kit]

. And then the aircraft carrier subs. Gee, why not combine them. That'll work!

I was just thinking on those lines, something a LOT more elaborate than the M-2 or the I-400 class, maybe a proper flight deck with a large folding cover? 

[Weaver]

How about a really badly designed steam warship?

I'd say put the crowsnest behind the forward funnel, but some pre-dreadnoughts actually did that for real...  

So how about putting the whole bridge and spotting top amidships and as high as possible, then having two, lower, side-by-side funnels in front of it and two behind it, thereby ensuring that the view from the bridge will be utterly blocked no matter which direction the ship's going in or the wind's blowing from.  A stern paddlewheel would nicely obstruct any firing arcs to the rear and would last all of five minutes in a firefight, while a huge, tall ram bow would equally obstruct all the forward arcs. That would leave all the guns side-firing, in barbettes, which can't be sealed against water ingress, so put the lowest ones as near the waterline as possible, then put the biggest guns highest up to avoid the flooding problem, only to create a topweight problem. Make them in as many different calibres as possible too, just to make splash-spotting even harder.

Interestingly enough in the records of the few combats by ocean-going side-wheeler
warships damage to the paddle-wheels was negligible, even when the wheels and/or
paddle-boxes were hit. Which was difficult to do as the solid bits of a paddle-wheel are
actually pretty small in comparison to the apparent size of the whole.

River combat during the US Civil War had a similar result, even multiple direct hits through
the covers over the paddle-wheels rarely resulted in putting them out of action. Hits to the
boilers, engines and the con were the most common reasons.

Very interesting - thanks. You'd imagine that even if a shell didn't hit the wheel directly, shell splinters would still damage it. Also, another thought: don't side-wheel paddles have substantially less structure to them than stern wheels? They're basically just paddles on a shaft, whereas stern wheels have a whole skeletal drum structure around them.

[Weaver]

Ah!  I have it!  One last sailing ship model our of the spares. 

But how to model it?

A big  fan at the stern to propel it when there is no wind?

It would need to have Ader propeller style blades.

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And that brings up one of the famously bad ideas: flapping wings. Been tried many a time, with remarkably consistent results...

[Weaver]

The thing is, the X-1 and the Surcouf, proved that cruiser subs with big guns and aircraft were not an inherently bad idea at a technical and tactical level. It was all a matter of execution. In both cases their cruiser features worked and it was other factors that led to them becoming design dead-ends.

In the case of X-1, it was a "conventional" element, her unreliable diesel engines, that proved her achilles' heel, and the primary reason the design wasn't repeated with better engines was that the evolution of inter-war naval treaties made her unattractive at a strategic planning level. She was scrapped before WWII and thus never got a chance to prove herself.

In the case of Surcouf, the fall of France led to her reaching the UK in poor material condition after a hurried departure, subsequently exacerbated by lack of spares for her unique design and the inexperience of her scratch crew after many of the originals refuse to serve the Free French. The question marks over the loyalties of her crew then led to her being deployed in ways that didn't achieve very much before her sinking.

[Dizzyfugu]

[loupgarou]

Last one is a SPETACULAR bad idea!     

[jcf]

The axle of the paddle of a sidewheeler is supported by the timber, iron or steel frame of the sponson.
Damage to the sponson frame was an issue for the sidewheelers and could occur due to rough seas as
well as in port, banging up against the quay or another vessel etc. Knock the outboard bearing out of
alignment by a few inches and you've got problems.
The axle and the structure of a sternwheeler is much more robust. Armouring one was straightforward,
as is shown by the river fleets of the US Civil War.
The biggest issue is that they don't really work in the open water of seas, the ocean and large, deep lakes
due to the need for a shallow draft, which is not a good idea on open water. The big wheel works best with
the paddles just below the surface as it rotates. In order to work on an ocean going battleship, it'd require
some sort of tunnel hull, a well, or perhaps a catamaran. Maybe a really daft ship designed to operate at
sea, littoral zone and rivers that has several retractable stabilizing fins on a flat bottom hull. All the way down
for open water, retracted half way for the littoral zone and fully retracted for a river. It would also be required
to be very wide in order to support heavy guns in turrets due to the shallow draft. Exaggerated tumblehome,
beyond that of even the French ships would, of course, be required.

[NARSES2]

And we're off 

[PR19_Kit]

Oh right, hmmmmmmmmmm, shall I even think about entering when I have ZILLIONS of unfinished projects still on the shelf?

Who knows? 

[Mossie]

A load of balls...

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/stalins-balls-of-steel-book-about-spherical-afvs.21788/#post-527577

https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/kugelpanzer-aka-ball-tank.3708/#post-188937

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[PR19_Kit]

The SP links work OK, but the pics don't.

[NARSES2]

I think they're sponsored by Heineken