Author Topic: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration  (Read 21509 times)

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #30 on: February 04, 2018, 05:02:15 am »
You could probably use a 1/72nd Scorpion as the basis of a 1/72nd DH.117 (17.4m long) but you might need a 1/32nd Starfighter to nick the wings from...

EDIT: a 1/72nd F-18E/F is right on the money for wingspan and shape. It's got a dogtooth that the DH.117 lacks, but you could always work that into the back story as a later modification.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 05:07:25 am by Weaver »
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #31 on: February 04, 2018, 10:18:05 am »
I've got a couple of Scorpions already, one was destined to swap wings with a Javelin at some stage, but the Javelin looked better than the Scorpion after the swap.

Hm, yes, one of the Scorpion kits is an H, the one with the HUGE wingtip pods stuffed with retractable Falcons...............  ;)
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #32 on: February 04, 2018, 12:39:20 pm »
Just had a look and I've got three Scorpions:

Revell F-89D/J (part-started)
Academy F-89J
Minicraft F-89C

The one thing I havn't got is an -H... :-\

I got the Revell one with the intention of swapping the pods and/or missiles onto a CF-100. However another thought's just occurred to me: Vietnam close air support conversion. With the Scorpion replaced in the interceptor role, the surplus airframes are converted to bolster numbers in 'Nam by Frankensteining various bits in storage together with some new-build parts. The result is as follows:

F-89J airframe with extra wing reinforcement and six pylons.
Rear cockpit equipment removed and an extra fuel tank fitted in it's place.
F-89D tip pods.
F-89C nose fitted with a simple ranging radar and a refuelling receptacle.

The resultant aircraft has (typically) 6 x cluster bombs, 104 x FFAR rockets, 6 x 20mm cannon and loads of fuel. Now that's going to re-arrange somebody's plans for the day... :wacko:

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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #33 on: February 04, 2018, 01:15:12 pm »

The resultant aircraft has (typically) 6 x cluster bombs, 104 x FFAR rockets, 6 x 20mm cannon and loads of fuel. Now that's going to re-arrange somebody's plans for the day... :wacko:


Yes indeed, but does it have longer wings?  ;D
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline Weaver

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #34 on: February 04, 2018, 01:46:43 pm »

The resultant aircraft has (typically) 6 x cluster bombs, 104 x FFAR rockets, 6 x 20mm cannon and loads of fuel. Now that's going to re-arrange somebody's plans for the day... :wacko:


Yes indeed, but does it have longer wings?  ;D

I was actually toying with the idea of giving it shorter wings to reduce the stress on them... :wacko:

Not sure it'd be worth it though: the Scorpion had a pretty complicated combined aileron/flap/airbrake arrangement, so cutting a few feet off it and then getting it to work again would be a non-trivial exercise.
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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #35 on: February 04, 2018, 04:11:44 pm »
I taped up the bits of the F-89H's wing-tip missile pods to see how they look.

They're HUGE!  :o

They're actually larger diameter and longer than a Canberra's engines! Northrop must have been using 1/48 scale drawings when they built the F-89...............
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline Weaver

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #36 on: February 04, 2018, 09:04:25 pm »
I taped up the bits of the F-89H's wing-tip missile pods to see how they look.

They're HUGE!  :o

They're actually larger diameter and longer than a Canberra's engines! Northrop must have been using 1/48 scale drawings when they built the F-89...............

Bear in mind that those two pods hold as many Falcons as an F-102's weapons bay, three-and-a-half times as many FFARs, AND a load of fuel.... :o
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Offline rickshaw

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #37 on: February 04, 2018, 09:30:41 pm »
We are having endless discussions about aircraft.  How about the weapons instead?

What nuclear free-fall bombs did the RAF have operational in 1965?  Are there any models of them?
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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #38 on: February 04, 2018, 10:09:38 pm »
I taped up the bits of the F-89H's wing-tip missile pods to see how they look.

They're HUGE!  :o

They're actually larger diameter and longer than a Canberra's engines! Northrop must have been using 1/48 scale drawings when they built the F-89...............

Bear in mind that those two pods hold as many Falcons as an F-102's weapons bay, three-and-a-half times as many FFARs, AND a load of fuel.... :o


I did note  that, and I'm amazed the remarkably thing wings remained attached! The Scorpion is truly a massive aircraft.


We are having endless discussions about aircraft.  How about the weapons instead?

What nuclear free-fall bombs did the RAF have operational in 1965?  Are there any models of them?


The Red Beard tactical weapon was carried by V bombers, Canberras, Buccaneers and Scimitars for most of the 60s. The thermonuclear weapon of choice at the time was the Red Snow, a UK built copy of the US Mk 28 bomb, and that was carried in the flat nosed Yellow Snow casing.

All this derived from an umpteen page Wiki search, which was anything but straightforward.  :banghead:
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline joncarrfarrelly

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #39 on: February 04, 2018, 10:20:25 pm »
They didn't stay attached until redesigned.  :wacko:

The F-89C made its first flight in September, 1951, and the first operational F-89C squadron was the 176th Fighter
Interceptor Squadron at Truax AFB, Madison, Wisconsin, which received its first Scorpion on February 8, 1952.

* On February 25, an F-89C shed a wing and disintegrated in flight. After investigators determined that the aircraft had
broken up due to overstressing by the pilot, speed and g-load limits were imposed.
* On June 18, just three days after the F-89C became operational with the 74th FIS at Presque Isle AFB, Maine, the wing
of one of the squadron's new Scorpions cracked and folded in flight, killing the pilot and radar observer.

* On August 30, two F-89Cs of the 27th FIS were flying in an aerial display at the International Aviation Exhibition near
Detroit. During a high-speed pass over the field, the left wing of one aircraft snapped off at the root. The fighter spun
to destruction, killing both crewmen and spewing debris into the crowd, injuring five spectators.

* Despite even stricter speed and g-limits, another F-89C was lost to a wing failure on September 15th.

* On September 22, still another F-89C of the 74th FIS experienced an in-flight structural failure when its crew heard a
loud bang and saw one of their wings fold up over their cockpit. Fortunately, both men managed to exit the plane and
lived to tell the story.

The Air Force grounded all F-89s where they were. Air Defense Command was so enraged at the latest problems with
the jinxed aircraft that it ordered Northrop to move the F-89s to modification centers using company test pilots and at
company expense.
In November, Northrop began an intensive analysis and redesign effort on the F-89C's wing, a process which ultimately
would cost taxpayers $17 million and take nine months to complete.

Northrop's engineers soon identified the problems that had combined to cripple the F-89C. The first issue was structural.
In order to provide adequate strength for the aircraft's large, thin wing, while at the same time obtaining the lightest
possible structure, they had used a promising new aluminum alloy, T75ST, in the highly-loaded fittings where the wing's
root was bolted to the fuselage. T75ST had promised high strength with low weight. A drawback, however, was that the
fatigue characteristics of the new alloy under extreme conditions were not fully understood. Northrop lacked facilities for
testing structural specimens of the Scorpion's airframe to their full design limits, and it was decided that structural
simulations of the airplane's wing could be tested to 60 percent of their limit loads and the remaining portion of the
stress envelope could be extrapolated mathematically. What the designers did not realize, however, was that several
factors inherent in the operation of high-speed jets had combined to make this a foolish choice.

In studying their wind tunnel data and the accident reports, Northrop's aerodynamicists realized that at high speeds and
under high loads, the thin, springlike wing of the Scorpion could begin an extremely rapid twisting or fluttering motion --
a motion that would interact with the airflow over the wing in such a way that the flutter would actually increase -- a
"diverging aeroelastic oscillation," in technical terms. This phenomenon could develop so quickly that it was hardly
possible for a pilot to detect it and correct for it. Exacerbating this aerodynamic-structural interaction was another problem
-- the new hydraulically-powered control system needed to steer the aircraft at high speeds had little "feel," or feedback,
as did the sensitive cable-driven controls of earlier fighters. A pilot could unwittingly fly his plane into this deadly
oscillation region with little warning.

The final piece of the puzzle was the T75 alloy in the machined wing root fittings. The new alloy turned out to have
unexpectedly high "notch sensitivity," meaning that any manufacturing imperfections, scratches, or dents could
become origins for fast-spreading fatigue cracks.

When the F-89C was placed in test rigs capable of duplicating the full loads experienced by actual aircraft in service,
Northrop's structural engineers were horrified to find that the wing root attachment fittings began failing
catastrophically. Combined with aeroelastic stress, these structural issues made the F-89C a very dangerous airplane.
Northrop engineers immediately redesigned the wing root, reenforced the wing structure, and replaced the T75 fittings
with massively stronger forged steel units. Each F-89 in Air Force service was returned to Northrop for a complete
rebuild on a new assembly line.
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #40 on: February 04, 2018, 10:35:42 pm »
I'm amazed an advanced company like Northrop didn't have a full load fatigue test system in place at that time!

Having said that, it was the early days of the aviation fatigue world when they were working on the Scorpion and perhaps the need for full load testing hadn't become fully apparent by then. Much of my life has been around such test rigs so they're 'normal' to me, but back then they wouldn't have been so common.
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline joncarrfarrelly

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #41 on: February 04, 2018, 10:44:11 pm »
Yep, it was a period of hard lessons for the aerospace industry.
“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline rickshaw

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #42 on: February 05, 2018, 12:45:23 am »
OK, Red Beard.  Available from Belcher Bits (with a load of other instant sunshine) or individually from Shapeways.  Prices are approximately the same.
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Offline Snowtrooper

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #43 on: February 05, 2018, 01:56:01 am »
Italeri B-58 comes with four B43 "shapes", and according to Wikipedia B43 was also supplied to RAF. (Though I remember reading from somewhere that they actually resemble the B28 more.)

That would leave you with three extra insta-sunshines and a B-58 to play with ;)

Offline Mossie

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Re: Cold War GB 2018 Inspiration
« Reply #44 on: February 05, 2018, 02:30:30 am »
Red Beard also comes with Airfix TSR.2 and Yellow Sun comes with the Valiant.  The WE.177's in the Belcher bits pack came into service in the late sixties, just after your 1965 date so could be used if you've got some wiggle-room in your time period.

EDIT, Ignore the Yellow Sun, it's Blue Danube that comes with the Valiant.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 02:33:43 am by Mossie »
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