Raf Harrier Help!

[Gekko_1]

Hi guys,

I am currently tossing around the idea of biting the bullet and paying the £250 and 6-20% annual royalty fee    to reproduce RAF subjects in decal form. Being the only Air Force IN THE WORLD that demands such ludicrous payments for the pleasure of reproducing their markings in decal form I want to be damn sure that I have sufficient reference material to be able to produce sufficient subjects to make the whole endeavour worthwhile. That's where you guys come-in!

I'll need your help with research material in order to do it and thought that the RAF/RN Harrier at War would be a good place to start!

So, basically what I need is information and photographs of RAF/RN Harriers that have been involved in combat operations since their service. The usual sorts of things will be needed like pictures of bomb tallies, nose art, pilot names and camouflage schemes etc. If I can acquire the sort of information needed then I may well pay the licensing fee and get the sheets printed.

What YOU get out of it is two free decal sheets, acknowledgment of your assistance in the instruction sheet and a subject of something you helped research produced accurately and affordably.

I'm also open to any other RAF subjects you may like to see done in decal form from World War Two right up to modern day subjects.



Richard Chafer
Gekko Graphics
[email protected]

[Jennings]

Richard -

If I may - you live 180 degrees of longitude and no small bit of latitude away from the UK.  Despite the fact that for the moment your flag has the Union Jack in the corner, I say f**k 'em.  They have zero right under any law anywhere to try to enforce something that's arguably in the public domain (after all, the RAF didn't invent the red/white/blue roundel design).  The odds of them tracking you down and/or doing anything to you are so remote as to be ludicrous in the extreme.

I say, joke 'em if they can't take a f**k, y'know?  It's gonna be a cold day in hell when I pay a foreign government a royalty to use a design they've not had the gumption to try to enforce a copyright on for the nearly 100 years they've been using it.  And did they pay anybody for the right to use it in the first place?  I didn't think so. Unless they invented it, they have no right to it.

Don't play into their greed by going along with them.  Just do it!

J

[Archangel]

Richard -

If I may - you live 180 degrees of longitude and no small bit of latitude away from the UK.  Despite the fact that for the moment your flag has the Union Jack in the corner, I say f**k 'em.  They have zero right under any law anywhere to try to enforce something that's arguably in the public domain (after all, the RAF didn't invent the red/white/blue roundel design).  The odds of them tracking you down and/or doing anything to you are so remote as to be ludicrous in the extreme.

I say, joke 'em if they can't take a f**k, y'know?  It's gonna be a cold day in hell when I pay a foreign government a royalty to use a design they've not had the gumption to try to enforce a copyright on for the nearly 100 years they've been using it.  And did they pay anybody for the right to use it in the first place?  I didn't think so. Unless they invented it, they have no right to it.

Don't play into their greed by going along with them.  Just do it!

J

From what you just posted the RAF or anyone for that matter, would have to fight tooth and nail to get one dime since they failed to enforce copyright laws and are not the original copyright holder and not the original artist in question that created the design of their individual squadron markings. Sorry but they will freeze in Hell before they would win a suit.

[AeroplaneDriver]

Gotta agree with Jennings...the RAF is already paid for by the taxpayers!

But...love your idea.  Alfred Price's book "Harrier at War"dealing with the Falklands is excellent.  I have a copy and if you can give me a week or two would be happy to send some scans if there is anything that you can use.

I think the Osprey book on the Balkans also has lots of reference material on Harrier markings in that theater.

Another reference that springs to mind might be an archive of some of the weekly news mags back from the appropriate periods.  I dont know how much you will find from the Balkans or 'Stan, but there was a lot of stuff published back during and right after the FI war.  

And finally...you might try here .  Maybe you cold ask if anyone has current/past photos they would be willing to share.  Some of the folks on that board have flown/maintained Harriers in various conflicts and may be willing to help out for the distant promise of a pint.

Can I ask one question...if you do this is there any chance of some RAF whif markings?  Maybe special scheme and anniversary markings printed to fit different aircraft, such as 75th anniversary squadron markings to fit the whole fin of an F-105 or F-111?

Good luck with the project!

[Gekko_1]

Richard -

If I may - you live 180 degrees of longitude and no small bit of latitude away from the UK.  Despite the fact that for the moment your flag has the Union Jack in the corner, I say f**k 'em.  They have zero right under any law anywhere to try to enforce something that's arguably in the public domain (after all, the RAF didn't invent the red/white/blue roundel design).  The odds of them tracking you down and/or doing anything to you are so remote as to be ludicrous in the extreme.

I say, joke 'em if they can't take a f**k, y'know?  It's gonna be a cold day in hell when I pay a foreign government a royalty to use a design they've not had the gumption to try to enforce a copyright on for the nearly 100 years they've been using it.  And did they pay anybody for the right to use it in the first place?  I didn't think so. Unless they invented it, they have no right to it.

Don't play into their greed by going along with them.  Just do it!

J

Hi Jennings, Archangel and AeroplaneDriver,

with the greatest respect to you all, I have to say that its easy for you to say this. I'm mean lets face it if I went ahead with an RAF sheet and some UK Lawyer working for the Ministry of Defence decided to take me to Court over Copyright breach what Legal rights would I have? I most certainly do not have any money to pay for any kind of a Lawyer, nor could I afford to pay any kind of a fine and after all there is very little to no money to be made in the decal industry as I'm sure you well know.

The only assets I have is a family car that is 12 years old and my 2 year old PC computer!  So would that mean I'd have to go to jail because I couldn't pay the fine? I don't know what to think? All I know is that if I was sued or fined I'd be entirely on my own.

Lets face it at the end of the day all I want to do is create an accurate decal sheet for some aeroplanes so a few plastic modellers can apply them to their plastic models! Should it ever have gotten this ridiculous?

Richard.

[Jennings]

Richard -

I've been there, done that.  I was threatened by AMR Corp (American Airlines), and when I simply didn't respond, they went away.

You are (no intense offended) such small potatoes you'd hardly be worth their looking, much less acting.  What could they possibly gain from taking you to court?  It would cost them thousands of pounds, and even if they did win (which I doubt), they'd basically get nothing out of it except a vindictive verdict  to get you to stop doing - basically nothing.

Trust me, if these boys want to play games, they're not going to play with the likes of you and me.  They're going to go after the big boys who are making millions (and who exactly these people are is quite beyond me).  It's simply not worth the effort to go after little guys - especially when they are (like you) far away across the sea and the equator.

FWIW, the Falklands isn't a great subject area for decals - none of the RAF airplanes had anything other than roundels and serials.

J

[P1127]

Richard -

If I may - you live 180 degrees of longitude and no small bit of latitude away from the UK.  Despite the fact that for the moment your flag has the Union Jack in the corner, I say f**k 'em.  They have zero right under any law anywhere to try to enforce something that's arguably in the public domain (after all, the RAF didn't invent the red/white/blue roundel design).  The odds of them tracking you down and/or doing anything to you are so remote as to be ludicrous in the extreme.

I say, joke 'em if they can't take a f**k, y'know?  It's gonna be a cold day in hell when I pay a foreign government a royalty to use a design they've not had the gumption to try to enforce a copyright on for the nearly 100 years they've been using it.  And did they pay anybody for the right to use it in the first place?  I didn't think so. Unless they invented it, they have no right to it.

Don't play into their greed by going along with them.  Just do it!

J

Whilst I agree with your sentiments, we are talking Trade marks here not copyright. Big difference.

And whilst they may not sue Richard, they could have siezed any unlicensed products entering or for sale in the UK or  the EU. I know because that was my job for 11 years.

[Mike Wren]

to be honest, as someone who loves Harriers I'd say there are enough decals on the subject already, a quick Hannants search brought up 30 odd sheets in 1/72 & 1/48, Model Alliance, Modeldecal & Xtradecal seem to have most Sea/Harrier options covered (although not on one sheet)

I'm sure there are other subjects that may be less covered that may, by their more unusual/less well covered subject matter, be a better choice

good luck anyway, your RAAF Rafale sheets are great!    

[blue520]

Sorry not trying to take this off topic, but what is covered by the trade mark?

Are RN subjects covered?

Are pre 1956 RAAF roundels covered, or for the RAF style South African & Canadian roundels?  

What would be the standing of a decal sheet that covered a (fictional or non-fictional) pre 1956 RAAF aircraft with roundels/fin-flashes and as bonus large number of decals  for a modern RAF aircraft without roundels? (could also be a post 1956 where the kangaroo had been never adopted and the RAAF follows overseas trends in roundel patterns)

[Jennings]

Whilst I agree with your sentiments, we are talking Trade marks here not copyright. Big difference.

And whilst they may not sue Richard, they could have siezed any unlicensed products entering or for sale in the UK or  the EU. I know because that was my job for 11 years.

Sorry, I misspoke re copyright vs. trademark.  I'm not a lawyer, but I've dealt with this a good deal in my line of work, and the upshot is, it's not little independent guys like Richard and me they're after.  True, they could stop the ship in international waters and board her and take prisoners, but how are they going to find the contraband if it's in an envelope addressed to Hannants?  I mean seriously?  The odds of being caught are infinitesimally small, and the odds that even if someone opened a particular package that they'd take the time to do anything about it are even smaller.

My argument still holds however:  if they haven't been claiming the roundel as a trademark for nigh on 100 years of constant use, then to do so now is ludicrous.  Next they'll be claiming rights to the wheel, since all their airplanes have them.  Please...

I think this whole thing is a tempest ® in a teapot (I'm sure the MoD will claim rights to having invented the teapot next), and I think playing into it is feeding the beast.

Richard - all forward speed.  Man the guns.  Furl the mizzen.  Prepare repel boarders!



J

[Maverick]

I've been thinking abou this issue ever since I saw the Eurodecals 'UK Air Arm' sheets.  Whilst I heartily agree with the sentiments here, after all it is a bit of a joke for the RAF to be getting antsy over decals and the like, I can feel for Richard.  There are plenty of small minded pen pushers in these government agencies who think nothing of pursuing ridiculous 'laws' to the ends of the earth.

In Australia, it's not unusual to recieve bills for 5 or 6 cents or even cheques refunding these amounts.  If such pettiness exists, I would think that the RAF might make some attempt via 'channels' to avenge their slighted pride if Richard went ahead with little thought of the consequences.  Whilst there would be a heap of modellers out there, myself included, who would say 'good on ya!', we would be little comfort if these mob actually made something of their case.  With Richard re-starting Gekko, I'd think the last thing he'd need would be some obtuse aggro from the MoD.

Petty rules are frequently made up by petty people who have little better to do than enforce their ideas.  I think we've all seen the Simpsons episode regarding the Disney lawyers.

Suffice to say, the MoD are complete tossers for even attempting this 'copyright'/'trademark' ownership in the first place and should be ashamed at such penny pinching, but it's there and the potential to be nasty and vindictive is also.

Mav

[kitnut617]

Richard, the new Datafile by SAM Publications, Sea Harrier, has loads of nice colour photos in it to use as reference.  But early buyers get a really nice decal sheet for a number of aircraft in 1/72 & 1/48 with it.  I'm reading mine right now, not only does it give the story about how the Sea Harrier came about, it goes through each aircraft' combat history too.

Robert

[Martin H]

RAF tat for sale

follow the link and will see why the RAF has registered the roundle and all other badges,emblems.banners ect ect ect as trade marks.

the RAF has been told by the HMG that it now has to show a profit.
In time the Army and Royal Navy will no doubt follow suit. as a result the MOD has registerd all badges, banners, ship names, regiment names and all other titiles as trademarks, and is chaseing after every tom dick and harry that even so much as thinks about useing any of the above for financial gain.  
Even the small fry are being chased. When the MOD approched Airfix and Corgi, they rolled over and paid up, then proceeded to "grass up" every one else in thier respective trades, how ever small they might be. even the RAF historical society (an offical body within the RAF) has been charged for the right to use the Term RAF in its title.

[Brian da Basher]

The RAF has to turn a profit?

I shudder to think what the impact of such a policy might've been during the Battle of Britain.

Brian da Basher

[AeroplaneDriver]

I wonder if the fees they they are paid covers the cost of having people at the MoD to worry about this sort of thing?

I'm sure the lads and lasses in 'Stan will be glad to know there is room in the budget for this kind of petty crap.  So much more worthwhile than say, body armour.  

Will people eventually have to pay the MoD pencil-pushers to use the term "tosser"?  Surely they have a grip on that one too.