Time to think about the Vautour...

[Archibald]

In 1951 a big bomber powered by two nene engines took off. It was the SO-4000. Conceived as a french Canberra or Il-28, hte plane was sleek and look great.
Aerodynamics were bad, handling disastrous, engines insufficient. In brief the plane was a big failure
http://xplanes.free.fr/so4000/images/so4000_07.jpg
After this failure, weight and range were reduced, more powerful engines fitted under the wings, aerodynamics improved : this become the SO-4050 Vautour
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lau.../1467/index.htm

This plane was a big success; it had the bomb bay, range of the Canberra but a much better speed and agility at mach 0.96 in level flight. Despite showing great potential, AdA don't used it much : it was killed by the F-84F and F-100 on one side, and Dassault Mirage IIIE (tactical role) and Mirage IV (strategic role).
It had one export customer, the IDF. Albeit in few number, the Isrealis use it for 15 years (1957-1972) for long range strike (up to Luxor or northern Iraq in the 6 days war!).
Apparetly new 1/72 scale model of the Vautour are available, from Special Hobby but also Azur, so it's high time to think about whatifs.  

[philp]

Archie,
This kit has been on my want list for ever because I love the IDF.
I will be getting at least one but it will be a real build.

However, on a Whiff idea.
Since Israel supplied Argentina with several aircraft, possibly an Argentine
strike version used during the Falklands War.

Hmmm...  maybe I will need to buy 2.

[Archibald]

Apparently the CF-100 and Vautour were roughly equivalents in the night fighter role. I like the idea of a CF-100 in french colors; this could be great, particularly with Atar engines!
concerning the Vautour, there's a pile of whatifs to make
- Tactical Vautour (instead of Mirage IIIE).
The Mirage IIIE was the main attack plane of the AdA, but it was an interceptor with short range and single seat. AdA pilots recognized that they were overloaded by work when they flew at low level... so a two-seat Vautour with a big bomb bay and range would have been much better!! The difference between a Vautour and a IIIE was roughly the difference between the multirole Lightning and the Buccaneer..
- Strategic Vautour
Because of its high subonic speed, range of the Vautour was superior to the Mirage IV! 4000km Vs 2500-3000 for the Mirage IV... worse, the Mirage IV was conceived for high altitude attack... whereas the Isrealis used the Vautour at low level and long range, outrunning Hunters and MiG-21 (at low level)

concerning Vautour derivatives, every turbojet or turbofan from the 50's/60's/70's (whithout reheat) could be adapted: the engine were under wings... I thought about the J-52, J-65, saphire, avon, Atar 8k50, spey, etc. For the radars, ask Mirage IIIE, TSR-2 weapon systems...
More, with Super Etendard Agave radar, and two exocets in the bomb bay, the Vautour could have been a terrible antiship plane... Martel, AS-30L would have followed...
A question : are special-hobby and Azur models available?

[Archibald]

Hope the future relaese will be soon... I've got plenties of things to do with the Vautour  

[NARSES2]

Hannants are showing the Azur models  as Future release.

Was on last years list as well - so don't hold your breath

Chris - who wants two at least

[Archibald]

Merde... I want three SO-4050 Vautours!!! And the special hobby one? available or not? I WANT A VAUTOUR IN 1/72 SCALE, ouiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnn...          

[NARSES2]

The Special Hobby one will be basically the same kit as the Azure one Archibald - and they were both on last years listings !

[Archibald]

Ah. Re-merde alors... I thought it was different! So the problem is the same     Why the hell having so much brands making the same kits?    

[NARSES2]

Ah. Re-merde alors... I thought it was different! So the problem is the same     Why the hell having so much brands making the same kits?  

Azure will p[roduce the IIA & IIB whilst Special Hobby will produce the IIN (hopefully)

Two brands but the same stable although I think Azure is a French company using the MPM "stable" to design and produce kits ? The Czech kit industry is slightly unphanomable to me a mere mortal but the Wookster probably knows better

Chris

[Archibald]

Ok thank you Narses I understand better.
Well if they made the three I will buy the three (if they are available before the end of this century )
Azur is a french word (its a kind of blue color, and also means the sky "patience dans l'Azur" is a well known astronomy book)  

[Jeffry Fontaine]

The Vautour was certainly a multi-role combat aircraft before that became a buzz word for the industry and the military.  Perhaps if it had been avaiable at the right place and time, it could have been acquired in lieu of the Canberra for the RAF/RAAF and by the USAF as the B-57 and built under license by Martin.  

It could then have seen use in SEA during the Vietnam unpleasantness in a number of roles that had been performed by the original USAF B-57 and RAAF Canberra.  Other missions that could have been performed by the Vautour:

*"Agressor" aircraft flying the missions that the EB-57 was tasked to perform for the Air Defense Command.  

*"Wild Weasel" Vautors equipped for attacking SAM and ADA sites using AGM-45 Shrike, cluster bombs, and electronic countermeasures.  The time frame would be right for that type of modification to perform that mission.  

Has anyone here acquired the 1/48th scale multi-media kit of the Vautour, or had a chance to inspect the kit contents?  I have seen the box but never had a chance to look inside.  

I used to have the old 1/50th scale Heller kit and gladly let it get away from me after discovering what a challenge it would be to build it and make it right.

[Archibald]

Jeffrey what you say is interesting! The main problem with the Vautour was the AdA didn't know how to use it. They made high flying horizontal bombing in WWII fashion!
In 1997, Le Fana de l'Aviation made a serie of articles on the Vautour in Isreali service...impressive!
Isreal bought only 20 Vautours, in three versions (Night fighter, recon, bombing). When the all weather Mirage IIICJ arrived in 1962, night fighter Vautours swith off to the ground attack role. They were used with great success in the 6 day war, attacking targets up to Louxor and H-3 (Iraqi air base) at the edge of their radius of action, and whithout escort...In H-3 they fought against Hunters and MiG-21, escaping at low level whithout problem.
In my opinion the Vautour was equivalent to the Canberra, Skywarrior or Il-28 (concerning bomb load, bomb bay, range etc.)  with the speed of a F-84F (Ie a transonic fighter-bomber). At the time, there was no equivalent in the world...
In french service, he was killed by both the americans and Dassault : the former gave the AdA F-84F and later F-100, the latter made the Mirage IIIE tactical fighter, and the Mirage IV strategic bomber. There was no room left for the Vautour...
The Isrealis were very keen of their bomber, saying that it had abig potential depsite weak engines (fuel guzzling Atar-101) and an obsolete weapon system (the norden system of the B-26 Invader).
Just imagine what the Vautour could have became... more, SNCASO was apublic firm which later merged into Aerospatiale. Had the Vautour survived until the 70's, public firms could have counter Dassault monopole on fighter market (after Breguet disapeared in 1967)
(sorry for the long post)  

[Archibald]

In 1970 was aprogram named "RAGEL" which means "Reconnaissance, Attaque et Guerre electronique Lointaine" Ie "Long range Recon, Attack and ECM" The plane was the Mirage G4, but why not the Vautour? your proposal about the EB-57 remind this...
Concerning antiradar maybe the Vautour could have carried Martel missiles (the Jaguar made it) in its bomb bay.
It would be nice to see Vautour in SEA markings escaping MiG-17 at low level...  

[Archibald]

A derivative of the SO-4050, the SO-4060 Cyclone, was a competitor of the Mirage IV but abandoned in favor of the Mirage IV. The plane was due to fly at mach 1.3
I search data about it (I found a small picture... on eBay!!)

[Archibald]

Anyone had pictures or datas about the Tsiklon (Ie upgraded, Spey-powered Isreali Vautour of 1968?a kind of Kfir/Saa'r upgrade applied to the Vautour)