BAC TFR-3

[Archibald]

RB-172 : what thrust? something like 20 000Ibs or less?  

[Zen]

RB.172 had about 13,000lbs static thrust in reheat though that figure maybe a little low as it refers to a 'cut down' version. Rr felt it was a cheaper engine to make than the anglo-german RB.153.

The RB.177 maybe a relative of it.

Another alternative would be the Anglo-French M45 engine.

[Archibald]

M45 engine : do you know something about this family of engines? I know they were the engines of the AFVG, but not more... (M49 was the alphajet engine, M53 Mirage 2000 engine.) Of course, we can accelelrate the M53 program tofit into the TFR-3 (program launched in 1968, first test in a Caravelle airliner in july 1973, first supersonic flight in the F1E december 1974)

[Archibald]

Zen I understand better your first reply now (page 1 of the thread).
I red the Tony butler book on briitish bomber this week end (on the train between Paris and Bordeaux, you need something to fill 3/12 hours...)
I found a lot of projects to make an effective TFR-3
I think the BAC P45 would have been perfect
So I rewrote part of my backstory

In 1958, after the Sandystorm, two requirement were made OR-339 was to replace the Canberra light bomber, and OR-346 was to be a fighter bomber common to the RAF and RN, to replace their Sea Vixens and Lightnings interceptors. The trouble was Great Britain couldn't afford both airplanes, and a choice had to be made. After bitter debates, GOR-339 was "sacrified" : it was postponed to 1965, and the Buccaneer was chose as stopgap. More, it was decided to keep the production line of the Vulcan bomber open, and a mk2B version was set up for the nuclear deterrent. The OR-346 was started but short lived:  in 1961, NATO requirement  NBMR-3 replace it by a  VTOL multirole supersonic fighter, which became the Hawker P-1154.  This plane replaced the OR-346. The trouble was VTOL ability degrade speed and range performances. After four years, the P-1154 was cancelled, but three prototypes were nevertheless ordered. The subsonic P-1127 was adopted instead as a close to air support aircraft to replace the aeging Hunter mk6 and Canberra B8.  The OR-346 was back for a common interceptor for RN and RAF.

At the time,in spring 1965,BAC and HSA were working on  AST-362 requirement for a supersonic trainer. This plane could make ground attack . Starting from the AST-362, BAC Weybridge and Warton staffs, along with Hawker design bureau, had made very interesting competitors. Some of the supersonic trainers had such performances that they were more interceptors. These were BAC P45, Vickers 593, and Hawker P.1173. They were lightweight mach2 fighters; most of them had one or two  RB-172 turbofan, rated at 5800kgp of thrust with reheat, but one  of the 593 had a much powerful RB-168 Spey.
Starting from these projects, it was decided to create a new interceptor. AST-362, supersonic training and cooperation with France were scrapped, but the two countries nevertheless agree on the AFVG on may 17th 1965.
In june 1965  ASR-394 requirement for the interceptor was made by the RAF and RN. Studies imediately started,; right from the start, VTOL abilities were rejected, and the plane weight was to be no more than 12 tons for normal take off, or 15 tons MTOW. The main problem were engine and wings : contenders were to explore the best combinations between one RB-168 or two RB-172, and tail delta, swept or VG wings. Hawker 1173, BAC Warton P45 and BAC Weybridge type 593 were studied within these various forms.
18 Months later, phase 1 ended. The three bureau agree that VG wing was too heavy for such a small aircraft and  dropped it. More, they suggested the twin engine plane could be interesting in exports markets to compete with the Phantoms and Freedom Fighters : the former was a bit heavy (18 tons MTOW) and expensive; first vietnam combat analisis clearly show a lack of agility. The latter was unexpensive but its overall performances were low (mach 1.4, two AIM-9 and a very short range).  More, the single-engine lightweight fighter market would probably be  overcrowded on the 10 years to follow, as no less than three fighters on this class were to fly in 1967 (Mirage F1, Mig-23 and SAAB Viggen).
They concluded that the best solution was probably a twin RB-172 plane, in two-seat or single-seat versions. The two seat version would  not  be a low-performances  trainer but rather a fully capable fighter. For phase two the type 583 was eliminated, and the Hawker P1173-2 was compared to the P45. The P45 had a tail delta whereas the P1173 had swept wings. Phase 2 ended in January 1968 and the delta wing, twin-engine P45 was chosen.

The prototype flew  quickly, in april 1969. It had a 40m2  delta wing with a conventional tail; this gave it a low wing loading and as a consequence agility was good. Its two RB-172 reheated turbofans had 6300kgp thrust each. The plane was 7 tons empty, 12.5 tons fully fueled and clean, 16.5 tons MTOW. It could fly at mach2.35 , range was much superior to the Lighning. Weapon system was an upgraded Lighning F6's one, waiting for better radar and missiles. Weapon load was 5500kg. Right from the beginning of the project, the plane interested many countries deceived by the Phantom weaknesses and price. Success on export markets was big, with more than 1500 planes sold worlwide for twenty years.
In 1976, the plane was adopted for the ASR-395 requirement against a Air Defence Version of the Tornado. Foxhunter radar and Skyflash missiles were fitted. RB-199 engines with 7500kgp of thrust boosted performances and range, giving Great Britain a very powerful interceptor.  The plane also found its way on the RN new CVA-01 carriers. Great Britain bought 220 Phœnix, as the plane was name. It was Great Britain biggest success since the Hawker Hunter of the 50's.
BAC Phœnix mk1 (1971)
- delta wing with tail
- two RB-172 turbofans, 6500kgp each
- 7 tons empty, 12 tons normal take off, 16 tons MTOW
- span 9 meters
- length 15 meters
- weapon system = improved Lightning F6 (Ferranti).
- weapon load  5500kg
- mach2.35

Bae Phœnix mk2 (1979)
Two RB-199 turbofans with 7500kgp of thrust each
18 tons MTOW
Two seat, Foxhunter radar  and Skyflash missiles.

[Jack Bobson]

Make a 100% english derivative

Yes. This would have saved the taxpayers in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales a packet.

NOT EVERYONE IN THE UK IS ENGLISH.

[Archibald]

oops. Sorry...            ^_^  

BAC P.45 Phœnix.

Delta wing with a tail.
Span 9 meters
Wing area 35m2
Length 15 meters
Weight
- 7 tons empty
- 12 tons normal take off weight
- 16 tons MTOW.
Powerplant : 2*RB-172 Turbofans 6200kgp of thrust each.
Speed Mach 2.3.
Weapon Load : 6000kg.
Armement : Red top air to air missiles, AIM-9 sidewinders, Sparrows, Skyflashs.
Up to 6000kg of  air-to -ground ammunitions (dumb bombs, maverick, rocket pods, LGB, AJ-168 Martel, Sea Skua)  

The program was launched in 1965, to replace both Lightnings and Sea Vixens, and also the cancelled P.1154 multirole VTOL supersonic fighter and Jaguar supersonic strike trainer.  The plane exist in naval ,and land based version, two seater or single seater. First flight may 1967 by Roland Beamont, plane entered service on  800sq on CVA-01  carriers in september 1969, and RAF 73sq in 1970. On exports markets since 1970, the plane raised many interest. It is more agile than the Phantom because of its low wing loading, its turbofans have a fuel consumption much lower than the J79. As a consequence, range is good. The plane is less expensive to buy and operate than the Phantom, and more recent. Compared to the F5 Tigers, it is much more powerful; its performances are much better. As for the Mirage F1 Mig-23 or Viggen, these planes are single engine fighters, so their range and weapon loads are less. In fact these plane is a good F-104, Crusader and F-5 replacement. The concept is very similar to the P-530 Cobra , but the plane is available much sooner (right from 1970) and, more, backed by the RAF (165) and RN (100).
More, when the RAF need a long range fighter at the end of the 70's, the P-45 could evolved into a powerful interceptor. RB-199 replace the RB-172 on the the two seater version;  Foxunter radar and Skyflashs missiles are added. The plane is much better than the Tornado for this role (VG wing is too heavy and the Tornado is a bomber, not an interceptor).
In the 60's and first half of the 70's, many countries wanted Phantoms. The problem with this plane was it lacks of agility, its price and the american policy (sometimes they say "no"). More, the plane only existed in two-seater versions.

Argentina
In 1972, they really wanted the Phantom, but chose the Mirage IIIE instead, because the USA refused to give them Phantoms, and the F5 was too light . Drakens and Lightnings were unaffordables because of politicals problems.
Canada
Phantoms were too expensives, so F5A were chosen which much regrets on the following years.
Germany
They wanted a single seat, downgraded phantom but have to stay with the two-seater.
Greece
Sometimes their was embargoes from the USA concernings spares for the aicrafts, so the country bought Mirage F1 (albeit they had less range and a reduced weapon load). Phantoms were finally delivered after the Cyprus crisis in 1974.

In these various cases, a less-expensive, non american twin-engine fighter could have been very useful. Much countries would have buy the P.45 Phœnix instead of Mirage IIIE/V/50, Mirage F1, F5A/E and Phantoms.

[Archibald]

Latest news : I found a "real" BAC TFR-3, reading tony buttler book on bombers. It was the Blackburn P.146. One sopey, high delta wing with tail, 1968... incredible !!!!

[Zen]

Did'nt I mention this in this thread?

[Archibald]

I know how to made a P.141!. Just start from the Heller Jaguar A. Of course, a heavy rebuild is necessary
- Mirage F1 air intakes
- F-18 Hornet nose cone, exhausts and wings
No need to modify the rest: the two plane are very similar in their length (16.8m for the Jaguar GRmk1, 17.1 for the P.141), canopy and the rest. so I think I will try to do it...