Author Topic: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness  (Read 1207 times)

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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2019, 12:33:37 am »
I don't think Harriers NEEDED to VIFF, they just could, which turned out to be quite handy.
Handy for what? Sure it was used in training exercises, however it's doubtful it would have been
a smart move during an actual combat situation with multiple adversaries, you VIFF, he overshoots
his wingman nails you because you've slowed down. Also only of use in a close-in turning fight.
 :rolleyes:

A neat airshow trick, like the Sukhoi "Cobra".

Actually, Jon, there were several kills made by Harriers in the Falklands only because they could VIFF, including one where the Harrier pilot was sans any form of weaponry (expended on a ground-pounding mission) - a bit of an "own goal" by the Argentinian pilot, & a couple of incidents where they turned inside incoming AIMs because of VIFFing. I don't know of any publications that have the info, I got it from the pilots &, as I was a sailor & understood the concept of exaggeration, their log books shortly after the Falklands War (gotta say the RN pilots were very forthcoming if you knew how to stroke their commissioned egos right ;)).

Note: Harriers don't have to VIFF only in straight & level flight.
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2019, 12:58:24 am »
I think it's mentioned in Sharkey Ward's book, but that's buried in my so-called 'Library' just now.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2019, 06:41:19 am »
I don't think Harriers NEEDED to VIFF, they just could, which turned out to be quite handy.
Handy for what? Sure it was used in training exercises, however it's doubtful it would have been
a smart move during an actual combat situation with multiple adversaries, you VIFF, he overshoots
his wingman nails you because you've slowed down. Also only of use in a close-in turning fight.
 :rolleyes:

A neat airshow trick, like the Sukhoi "Cobra".

The maneuver was actually first done/developed by the USMC Jon, just about as soon as they got their hands on a Harrier (which was when they tested the Harrier before the USMC got them). I read an article about it in AeroMilitaria some years ago now.
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Offline joncarrfarrelly

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2019, 12:50:57 pm »
I'm aware of who developed it, and the unverified 'claims' of use in the Falklands.
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Offline Snowtrooper

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2019, 02:56:14 am »
From what I've read, British success in the Falklands was dependent on several factors, most of which had nothing to do with VIFFing.
-Notably better trained British crews
-Better British coordination between fighters and surface radars
-Argentinians were at first unaware that the British had all-aspect missiles, they hadn't trained at all how to fight against such and they didn't have those themselves either
-Argentinians were operating at the extremes of their range, limiting their time over target (and thus available for dogfighting)

Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #20 on: April 17, 2019, 03:17:54 am »

From what I've read, British success in the Falklands was dependent on several factors, most of which had nothing to do with VIFFing.


No-one was claiming that it was a major factor. The point at issue was that it was 'handy', to quote my original post.
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

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Offline Weaver

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2019, 03:58:47 am »
As far as I know, VIFFing wasn't used at all in the Falklands. Probably the best opportunity for it would have been during the downing of Major Tomba's Pucara by Sharkey Ward. However he states in his book that he used dropped flaps, not VIFFing, to stay behind the much slower aircraft.

VIFFing is useful where your need to force an attacker to overshoot is so desperate that any price, including losing a ton of speed, is worth paying. That's an entirely plausible situation, but it's a very narrow and particular one, and I don't think any fighter pilot would argue with the idea that it would be MUCH better not to get into that situation in the first place.

Another factor in the UK victory in the air was the Argentine choice of tactics. The Argentine leaders instructed their pilots to avoid air-to-air combat if possible and concentrate on hitting ships. This was partly due to an exaggerated view of the SHAR's capabilites (helped along by some UK psyops), and partly because they thought, somewhat correctly, that sinking or damaging key ships was the most effective thing they could do to turn the situation around. Most Argentine aircraft downed by SHAR's were trying to get away after dropping their bombs.

Sharkey Ward is of the opinion that this tactic was a mistake. In his book he offers the view that the Argentine Air Force should have gone out of their way to kill SHARs at the start of the conflict, even accepting unfavourable kill-to-loss ratios to do so, because the SHARs were a very small force with no replacements available, and once they were gone, the British Task Force, lacking air cover, would have had no option but to withdraw.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2019, 04:04:17 am by Weaver »
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Offline zenrat

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2019, 05:09:58 am »
Now there's an alternate history to play with.
UK task force is forced to withdraw from the Falklands after losing its air cover.
Argentina massively fortify the islands rendering them impossible to retake.
Thatcher, not getting the popularity boost the victory would have given her looses the '83 election.
Prime Minister Foot carries out CNDs unilateral nuclear disarmament policy and asks US forces to leave the UK...

Fred

Another ill conceived, lazily thought out, crudely executed and badly painted piece of half arsed what-if modelling muppetry from zenrat industries.

Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2019, 05:28:24 am »

Now there's an alternate history to play with.
UK task force is forced to withdraw from the Falklands after losing its air cover.
Argentina massively fortify the islands rendering them impossible to retake.
Thatcher, not getting the popularity boost the victory would have given her looses the '83 election.
Prime Minister Foot carries out CNDs unilateral nuclear disarmament policy and asks US forces to leave the UK...


I think I prefer the real version myself................
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline Rheged

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2019, 06:32:23 am »
Another couple of alternative scenarios (scenarii??)

A) Mrs T instructs the navy to launch a concrete headed polaris at the outskirts of Buenos Aires, with the threat that the next one would be targeted on the Casa Rosada (presidential palace)   This  apparently was discussed as an option in a general sort of way, it was reckoned that USA and USSR would both be so concerned that live rounds might be next that they'd help remove the occupying forces in order to preserve the peace.

B) The Welsh community of Patagonia, who did actually have considerable issues with the central government, rise up and cause sufficient mayhem that a landing in the area, supported by Chile, leads to the formation of the Independent Republic of  South  Cymru  (the name New South Wales already having been taken elsewhere)
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Offline Weaver

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #25 on: April 18, 2019, 12:47:30 am »

Now there's an alternate history to play with.
UK task force is forced to withdraw from the Falklands after losing its air cover.
Argentina massively fortify the islands rendering them impossible to retake.
Thatcher, not getting the popularity boost the victory would have given her looses the '83 election.
Prime Minister Foot carries out CNDs unilateral nuclear disarmament policy and asks US forces to leave the UK...


I think I prefer the real version myself................

Seconded... :o
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Offline Captain Canada

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2019, 08:37:16 am »
Interesting read from one of my favourite eras of aviation. Cheers guys !

Having seen these two perform together at Yuma, my favourite aeroplane is still a star  :wub:

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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Boulton-Paul VTOL craziness
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2019, 10:38:25 am »
I like them both Todd, but like the B-52, the Harrier is a '50's design. My attempt to upgrade the Harrier ended up as a complete new airframe.

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