Author Topic: Panavia Sea Tornado idea  (Read 1386 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline McColm

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 8047
Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« on: January 03, 2019, 02:39:00 am »
What if the USNavy had chosen a naval version of the Panavia Tornado instead of the McDonnell Douglas F/A-18 Hornet.
No doubt a carrier version based on the GR1 and the fighter variant the Super Sea Tornado.
 For arguments sake the Tornado ticked all the boxes that need to be addressed for carrier operations and designated the aircraft as the Panavia F-27A/B Sea Tornado and the F-27 E/F Super Sea Tornado.
The B variant being the two seater training version, the D could be a tanker or pathfinder.
 Kit wise there's a whole wealth of scales and aftermarket products to choose from.
Update sets could see the equivalent GR4/GR4A as the C/D, then there's the reconnaissance and electronic warfare versions as well.
No doubt these would be built under licence with American engines and electronics.

Offline Snowtrooper

  • Scratchbuilds the entire model
  • ****
  • Posts: 620
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2019, 01:56:13 pm »
I would argue that the Sea Tornado would have to had become multirole - originally the Hornet was also envisioned as the F-18 fighter and A-18 attacker, but it was then seen as more cost effective and flexible to have single airframe perform both roles, especially on smaller carriers where deckspace was limited. Also, this would have required that the US Navy would not have jumped aboard the USAF "manoeuverability" bandwagon, and would have appreciated Tornado's longer range, better low-level performance, and the ability to fit a larger radar for air-to-air work. Which is entirely plausible, considering that the Navy, unlike the Air Force, didn't sacrifice their Phantoms' speed and radar with manoeuvring slats and gun.

Of course, Tornado has a landing speed of 115 kts versus legacy Hornet's 130-140 kts, so conceivably it could have operated from smaller carriers than Hornet (Essex, Audacious, Colossus, Majestic, Centaur, Clemenceau) opening up all sorts of export possibilities. Probably could have used its thrust reverser with Viggen-style automation to ease loads on the tailhook (to avoid "bolters" it should probably only have activated automatically upon sensing deceleration due to tailhook actually engaging) and the thrust reverser would also have allowed it to taxi and park itself without the need for a tractor (again convenient on a small carrier).

Depending on how your timeline proceeds, when the "peace dividend" hits in the early 1990's there's going to be a fair few politicians griping about the maintenance costs of a swing-wing plane, but on the other hand, there's not much in the way of alternatives (with Hornet never being adopted by most air arms after it was abandoned by the US) and with most of Navy's air combat capability being swing-wing, the F-14 program also becomes much harder for Darth Cheney to kill and the 'Cat would probably survive to yield the Quickstrike and eventually Attack Super Tomcat 21 variants.

Offline McColm

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 8047
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2019, 07:51:47 pm »
Wow! Thanks for your input :thumbsup:

Offline Cobra

  • Plans to do the Spearhead
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 2296
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2019, 08:03:02 pm »
this is a Super Cool Idea :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: if You do Decide to Build one,Make sure to research What Squadrons Would've Used the Squadron so You can Drive JMNs Bonkers :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: You might Also want to have the Song "Danger Zone" from Top Gun Playing while You Display the Aircraft! Stay Cool & Hope You bring this Awesome Idea to Life :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: Dan

Offline Scotaidh

  • Full scale Arrow in basement
  • *****
  • Posts: 980
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2019, 01:49:06 am »
this is a Super Cool Idea :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: if You do Decide to Build one,Make sure to research What Squadrons Would've Used the Squadron so You can Drive JMNs Bonkers :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: You might Also want to have the Song "Danger Zone" from Top Gun Playing while You Display the Aircraft! Stay Cool & Hope You bring this Awesome Idea to Life :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: :cheers: Dan

But also build F-14s in their various forms - the Bombcat, Quickstrike, and Super Tommy so you have all the "birds of the feather" ...
Y'know, given that the helicopters employ a rotary wing, then all Naval aircraft would be "swing-wing".  :)
I try to learn from the mistakes of others who take my advice.

Online Weaver

  • I'm either dumb or evil - you decide.....
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 17996
  • Has a life outside What-If that is also What If
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #5 on: January 04, 2019, 02:10:51 am »
Makes good sense: I've always thought the Tornado had good carrier potential, and if we'd built the CVA-01 carriers, it would likely have replaced at least the Buccaneer on them and maybe even the Phantom eventually. The USN bought the F-18 as a replacement for the A-7, so the primary requirement was strike, with the increased air-to-air capability being a secondary bonus. Since the Tornado was more capable than the A-7 and more modern than the A-6 (and faster than both) you might well envisage it eventually replacing both types with a reduced number of aircraft, thus allowing the number of F-14s to be increased. Other A-6 based platforms like the KA6-D tanker and EA-6B Prowler could be replaced by S-3 Viking-based versions, the fuel-efficient turbofans of the latter being ideal for these missions (the EA-6B and the Tornado ECR are rather different in role and I don't think the latter could do the former's job).

So a real-life (late 1970s/early 1980s) force of:

24 x F-14
24 x A-7
10 x A-6
4 x KA-6D
4 x EA-6B
10 x S-3

Becomes:

30 x F-14
30 x Tornado
4 x KS-3
4 x ES-3B
10 x S-3

That's a couple less airframes (74 vs 76), but then we've added more big F-14s and replaced small A-7s with slightly larger Tornados.
Neophyte: Is Eris true?
Malaclypse the Younger: Everything is true.
Neo: Even false things?
MtY: Even false things are true.
Neo: How can that be?
MtY: I don't know man, I didn't do it.
Principia Discordia

Twitter: @hws5mp
www.minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline Rheged

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4891
  • Growing older is inevitable, growing up isn't!
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #6 on: January 04, 2019, 02:36:03 am »
Given the size of the Tornado fin , do we suggest carriers with very high hanger decks, a twin fin or a folding fin?   The Sea Tornado concept is most interesting and opens up all sorts of JMN boggling opportunities.
"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you....."
It  means that you read  the instruction sheet

Online PR19_Kit

  • Closeted Take That fan
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 34255
  • Whiffing since the 70s
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #7 on: January 04, 2019, 05:37:12 am »
Yes, a folded fin Tonka would look good in model form, like a Vigilante,  :thumbsup:
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline Old Wombat

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 8771
  • Armour: The Gods of War love it!
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #8 on: January 04, 2019, 06:17:24 am »
Either would be cool. :mellow:

A European Panavia-built version with a folding tail, perhaps, & an American twin-tail version built by Grumman to match their twin-tailed cat. ;D
Has a life outside of What-If & wishes it would stop interfering!

"The purpose of all War is Peace" - St. Augustine

veritas ad mortus veritas est

Offline kitnut617

  • That's got his tum rumbling already just by the sound of it.
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 12525
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2019, 06:45:54 am »
There's a discussion over on Secret Project Forum on possible Sea Tornado projects (from a few years ago), and Wild Weasel versions too.
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

Offline McColm

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 8047
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2019, 10:40:55 am »
No doubt that there is scope for a single seater version as well.
 I do have the Revell 1/72 GR1/GR1A in the stash but I was thinking of a swing-wing North American RA-5F Vigilante using the Hasegawa kit.
 I would like to try and build a few whiffs in 1/48 scale based around this topic.
Thanks for the encouragement. :thumbsup:

Online Weaver

  • I'm either dumb or evil - you decide.....
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 17996
  • Has a life outside What-If that is also What If
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2019, 02:35:02 pm »
Given the size of the Tornado fin , do we suggest carriers with very high hanger decks, a twin fin or a folding fin?   The Sea Tornado concept is most interesting and opens up all sorts of JMN boggling opportunities.

On the one hand, a quick perusal of stats indicates that a Tonka is 19.5 ft high, while a Nimitz hangar is 25 feet high, so it shouldn't be neccessary. However, the A-5 Vigilante was also 19.5 ft high and had a folding fin... :unsure: Maybe the Vigilante's fin fold was to get it onto older carriers?
Neophyte: Is Eris true?
Malaclypse the Younger: Everything is true.
Neo: Even false things?
MtY: Even false things are true.
Neo: How can that be?
MtY: I don't know man, I didn't do it.
Principia Discordia

Twitter: @hws5mp
www.minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Online PR19_Kit

  • Closeted Take That fan
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 34255
  • Whiffing since the 70s
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2019, 02:45:11 pm »
AFAIK the Vigi was supposed to be able to fit the Midway Class as well. I think that's mentioned in one of the books I have on the Vigi, but goodness knows where it is now.
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline joncarrfarrelly

  • Bertie Bassett
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 7623
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #13 on: January 04, 2019, 03:15:49 pm »
A USN Tonka purchase would be extremely unlikely, however if there had been
a USAF purchase, who knows.  ;D Illo from Interavia.

“Conspiracy theory’s got to be simple.
Sense doesn’t come into it. People are
more scared of how complicated crap
actually is than they ever are about
whatever’s supposed to be behind the
conspiracy.”
-The Peripheral, William Gibson 2014

Offline McColm

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 8047
Re: Panavia Sea Tornado idea
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2019, 10:45:02 pm »
Another possibility is the RF-27A , either go down the route of modifying the nose or a camera pack pod carried by the European users.