Author Topic: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow  (Read 30092 times)

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Offline Mossie

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DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« on: January 08, 2009, 06:58:39 am »
What Whiffs on De Havillands early twin boomers & the DH.108 Swallow?

The Vampire & Venom are largely forgotten when it comes to modelling, which is strange since between the two types there were over 4,500 built.  The Swallow has probably been reasonably kitted for an experimental aircraft, there are a few around.

Ideas:

Venom with a DH.108 wing, a further addition to the family.

FICON style Vampire, mounted on a Vulcan in a cut out in the bomb bay.  Simillar way to the Gnat proposal, but maybe an earlier version on the B.1?


DH.116 Super Venom, a real proposal that used the cockpit of the Venom mated to a conventional fuselage & DH.108 wing.  The RN were initially interested, but plumped for the twin engined Sea Vixen instead.
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Offline Weaver

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2009, 07:15:12 am »
Funnily enough, I was fondling a Frog Sea Venom last night and thinking about the DH.116. I don't think it's a DH.108 wing though is it? The latter had a longer span and less sweep IIRC. The DH.116 wing is more like a scaled-down Sea-Vixen.

How about tandem-seat trainer and night-fighter versions of the Vampire, Venom and/or Sea Vixen? You'd have to compensate for the extended fuselages somehow: longer booms with some equipment/fuel in them? For the night-fighter, you could move weight backwards by removing the cannons and replacing them with rocket pods on the wingtips (not a "good" idea of course, but very 1950s....).
« Last Edit: January 08, 2009, 07:32:04 am by Weaver »
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Offline Weaver

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2009, 07:36:26 am »
The Vampire's enormous wing (lower wing loading than a Spitfire  :blink:) was conditioned by the high-altitude intercept condition, yet ironically, it spent most of it's time as a fighter bomber, so here's a subtle one for the JMNs:

Take a Vampire, crop a goodly chunk of wingtip off, replace it with Venom-style tip tanks and add more RPs or bigger bombs under the wings than a regular Vampire could carry. Then paint it up in an authentic-looking test-aircraft scheme and present it as an early FBA-style prototype that was superceded by the Venom.... :wacko:
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Offline Mossie

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2009, 08:26:12 am »
Think you're right about DH.116 & DH.108 wing.  I've heard both the Sea Vixen & DH.116 described as having a DH.108 like wing, more to do with the rough characteristics then being exactly the same.

An enlarged Vampire/Venom is a good idea, wether for a tandem cockpit or just more fuel/equipment or bigger engines.  The booms are pretty skinny, there'd be no problem fleshing them out a bit & adding some fuel, or even maybe extend them forward & add rocket pods?

Like the anti-JMN version too!  Like you mention, the Vampire had large wing for it's size & a decent ceiling.  You could do the opposite of the anti-JMN & extend the wingtips & delete the armament for a PR variant.  This rings a bell somwhere in the back of mind, it could be a real project or someone might have already done it.
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2009, 08:46:29 am »
Wasn't there a bizjet proposal for the Vampire/Venom?

I'm sure I've seen photos of a four seater version somewhere, like a T11 but with an extended nose. Not pretty in the slightest but an interesting device.

With some sort of ECM fit and an ALAARM or two it could even have been an RAF EA-6B look alike........ :)
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

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Offline Weaver

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2009, 09:35:12 am »
Wasn't there a bizjet proposal for the Vampire/Venom?

I'm sure I've seen photos of a four seater version somewhere, like a T11 but with an extended nose. Not pretty in the slightest but an interesting device.

With some sort of ECM fit and an ALAARM or two it could even have been an RAF EA-6B look alike........ :)

There were two actually: Jetcraft in the States and someone who's name I can't recall in the UK.

Picture of the Jetcraft here (page 2):

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,21396.15.html

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Offline Weaver

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2009, 09:37:12 am »
Mossie: you had to mention PR and extended wings didn't you? Look who turned up........ :rolleyes: :wacko: ;D
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2009, 09:47:34 am »
Simon,  I've been thinking of whiffing the DH-108 kit I have, my plan is remove the rear fuselage aft of the wings, add a Venom tailpipe and then make up some booms similar to the Sea Vixen.  Sort of a scaled down 'proof-of-concept' prototype of the Sea Vixen, I think it works out at nearly half-scale but I've not done the math yet.  I'll use everything forward of the wing trailing edge
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Offline joncarrfarrelly

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2009, 10:15:04 am »
Quick n' Dirty Sea Venom with DH 108 type wings.

Similar to what is described as a DH.116 Sea Venom Development  in 'De Havilland Aircraft since 1909', A J Jackson, 1978 edition, Putnam.

" ... basic Venom fuselage was to have been slightly modified to house more modern radar and mated to a new thin section swept wing."

Perhaps Jackson was describing a predecessor to the Super Venom?

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Offline Weaver

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2009, 10:22:22 am »
Do a wing swap between a Vampire and a Sea Hawk. The Vampire becomes an attack version as already described, whilst the Sea Hawk becomes a Navy high-altitude recce version (two fold lines scribed on each wing....).
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2009, 11:11:40 am »
Quick n' Dirty Sea Venom with DH 108 type wings.

Similar to what is described as a DH.116 Sea Venom Development  in 'De Havilland Aircraft since 1909', A J Jackson, 1978 edition, Putnam.

" ... basic Venom fuselage was to have been slightly modified to house more modern radar and mated to a new thin section swept wing."

Perhaps Jackson was describing a predecessor to the Super Venom?

Jon



Something like that Jon, only I was thinking the later DH-108 forward fuselage and single seat version
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2009, 12:48:54 pm »
Mossie: you had to mention PR and extended wings didn't you? Look who turned up........ :rolleyes: :wacko: ;D

Who? Me? ? ? :)

That Mystery Jet looks even LESS pretty than the UK one I was thinking of. Have they never heard of the 'What Looks Right Flies Right' mantra? Mind you, I have a bucket of Frog Sea Venoms in The Loft, and not a few Heller Vampires too, hmmmmmmmmmmmm........
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline GTX

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2009, 11:10:13 pm »
Quote
So, what about a COIN Vampire rebuild with a PT6 pusher?

Kind of like a turboprop Sud-Ouest SO 8000 Narval:





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Offline Weaver

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2009, 12:55:58 am »
Regarding pusher Vampires, remember this?

http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/allies/gb/ranvamp.htm
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Offline Mossie

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Re: DH Venom, Vampire & Swallow
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2009, 04:18:14 am »
Jon, the Venom with DH.108 wing looks great.  The Sea Venom was a good choice, the exhaust fairing makes for a very pleasant form in plan, resembling the Ho.229.

Robert, I like your take on it, look forward to seeing some pics.

Greg, there was a planned turbojet version of the Narval too, the 8010.  There's a speculative drawing of it on Secret Projects, resembles a Vampire with a longer fuselage:
http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/index.php/topic,441.msg6153/highlight,8010.html#msg6153

Weave, I hadn't seen that pusher Vampire, nice find!
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.