Author Topic: Nord-5000 Harpon  (Read 6480 times)

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Offline Archibald

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Nord-5000 Harpon
« on: September 12, 2006, 12:33:26 am »
The Mirage III was a derivative of the Mirage 01/I and Mirage II. Those two had been built after a request of the AdA (from 1953) for a mach 1.5, lightweight interceptor (with a single AAM in the centerline). Two others competitors were build (the rocket-powered Trident, and the Durandal which was quite similar to the Mirage, but with a frontal air intake ala F-100).
The program later evolved to a mach-2 multirole fighter, and the Mirage III was the winner.
The 1953 program was to be a high-altitude, supersonic complement to the NATO fighter competition (low-level interception  and ground attack fighter. competitors were the Etendards II IV VI, Br.1001 / 1100 TAON, SE-5000 Baroudeur and Fiat G.91)
On the interceptor program there was three more competitors which never left the drawing board. Those were
- Morane-Saulnier MS-1000
- Br.1002
- and my favourite, the Nord-5000 Harpon!
The picture come from "les avions de combats francais 1945-1960. tome 1 Les chasseurs" by Jean Cuny.
 
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline Archibald

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Nord-5000 Harpon
« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2006, 04:51:47 am »
More precisions about this bird.
(1955)
Powerplant : Two turboméca "Gabizo" turbojets (1500 kgp each) and a SEPR rocket of 1500 kgp.
Span 7.94 m
Length 12.87
Empty weight 3270 kg
MTOW 6200 kg
Maximum speed mach2
ceiling 25 000 m
Take off and landing in 450m


 
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline Rogerolim

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Nord-5000 Harpon
« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2006, 06:38:46 am »
Great bird!!

I love that !!!    :wub:  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:

The ideas are coming...   :rolleyes:  



Offline Archibald

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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2006, 09:23:04 am »
I think that those projects are quite interesting because they were developed as rivals of the Mirage III. What follow is obvious : imagine the Breguet 1002, Morane saulnier MS-1000 or this aircraft replacing the Mirage... you have 1422 aircrafts and more than twenty countries to explore :)
Still from the same book, are the sheme of the MS-1000 and Br.1002...

In fact the program evolved quickly, in three steps.

At the beginning (in 1953) many of the light interceptors projects had two turbomeca Gabizo engines (1500 kgp each). Weak power meant that a SEPR rocket motor was necessary to reach only mach 1.5.

In 1956 only the Trident, Durandal and Mirage III-01 were still in the race. But the Atar-9 (6000kgp, mach-2 capable) was not ready, so the older Atar-101 (4500kgp) stayed in service, with the rocket (1500 kgp).

The Atar-9 was available only in 1958, giving birth to the defintive Mirage IIIA. The Durandal would have followed the same path, the Atar-9 variant beeing the Durandal-IV. But the plane was never build, the firm Sud-est beeing-merged with Sud-ouest, constructor of... the Trident!

pictures from the same book

- Durandal (with the evolved Durandal IV, and the naval variant of the IV)


- Durandal IV


- MS-1000


- Br.1002


   
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline Zen

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Nord-5000 Harpon
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2006, 11:47:11 am »
Fascenating stuff!!!!!!!!!!

Great potential among these.
To win without fighting, that is the mastry of war.

Offline Archibald

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« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2006, 01:05:55 pm »
Look at this one : the Mirage V (competitor of the Durandal IV and the Br.1120 you already know) for the supersonic naval interceptor program of 1958.


 
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline elmayerle

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Nord-5000 Harpon
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2006, 04:59:35 pm »
It'd be intersesting to scheme a Harpon with a single Atar 9 rather than the two "Gabizo" engines and a rocket.  If memory serves me correctly, the Mirage I and II also both used two "Gabizo" engines and a rocket so we have a basis for estimating the Harpon's possible evolution.
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Offline rallymodeller

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Nord-5000 Harpon
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2006, 07:42:13 pm »
The first Durandal looks cool -- sort of like a hybrid F-100/XF-92.

Hmm....
--Jeremy

Poor planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part...


More into Flight Sim reskinning these days, but still what-iffing... Leading Edge 3D

Offline Archibald

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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2006, 11:35:30 pm »
Quote
It'd be intersesting to scheme a Harpon with a single Atar 9 rather than the two "Gabizo" engines and a rocket.  If memory serves me correctly, the Mirage I and II also both used two "Gabizo" engines and a rocket so we have a basis for estimating the Harpon's possible evolution.
The Gabizo engine was to power many lightweight fighters of the mid-50's. It was present in the Mirage II (the Mirage 01 and I had Viper licence-build by Dassault), Breguet 1100, Etendard (can't remember if it was II or VI) and some projects. 1500 kfp of thrust, build by Turbomeca, it ended in failure, lilling all the projects drawn around it (and that's  one of the reason of the creation of the Mirage III ).

Sorry, there's no picture of the Atar-9 variant in the book. But maybe there's some infos...
(7500 kg MTOW, 10% wing area, more an experimental aircraft for high-speed tests.)

The Durandal and Mirage III-01 had the same engine, the Atar-101 of 4500kgp. But the Durandal flew in april 1956, when the Mirage flew only in November... Dassault was late!!!  
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline Archibald

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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2006, 11:44:04 pm »
The Harpon project was developed between 1952 and 1956. Progress were so fast at the time that the plane had a Nene engine, then two Gabizo, and ended in two variants (the Atar 9 or two*Orpheus 12). This project is representative of all the engines available in France in the 50's!

Here's the translation of the text

"Nord asled in vain the French governement for a financial aid. The aim was to develop an experimental Harpon to explore the high-speed regime (mach 2+ for 5 minutes). The plane would have been slightly bigger than the fighters already mentionned. MTOW was 7.5 tons, there was 10% more wing area. Engines were two Orpheus or an atar-9, still with the sepr rocket engine of 1500 kgp."
 
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline Archibald

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Nord-5000 Harpon
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2006, 11:09:30 am »
Had the AdA had more money (eternal problem in whatif world!!!!) in the late 50's, more aircrafts would have reached service.
For example, plan for the interceptors were as follow
- Below 30 000 ft, Etendard IV (the very same aircraft that served the French navy until the mid-90's)
- Between 30 000 and 60 000 ft, Mirage III
- Above 60 000 ft, the Trident.
For long range interception, first choice was the SO-4060.
Maybe more Vautours (the A variant for long-range bombing) and SMB-2 (orders were cut to 180 in 1957). And of course, there was also this enormous Mirage IVB for nuclear-bombing...
And maybe even more american aircrafts to replace the F-84F and F-100 (F-105 ?)
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline Archibald

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Nord-5000 Harpon
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2006, 11:10:46 am »
Quote
Great bird!!

I love that !!!    :wub:  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:

The ideas are coming...   :rolleyes:
What ideas ? We want to know more!!!  
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline Rogerolim

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Nord-5000 Harpon
« Reply #12 on: September 18, 2006, 06:21:20 am »
Be patient, Archie!  

 :D  :D  :D



Offline Archibald

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« Reply #13 on: September 18, 2006, 08:42:21 am »
:rolleyes:  I'm patient, sir!!  
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline PolluxDeltaSeven

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Nord-5000 Harpon
« Reply #14 on: September 18, 2006, 10:14:07 am »
So much deltas!!!  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:
I particulary love the MS-1000, what a beauty, even with this big tail!  :wub:

And thank you Archie for the Mirage V picture: I finally see this plane!!
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