Contemporary Crusades

[NARSES2]

Bollocks

Just you wait, the Heavy Brigade are coming calling  

I'll use 105mm instead of paint if you're not careful......ie, in the usual Crusader fashion, cheat when it suits
Machiavelli's middle name was "Radish" remember?

Need I say more    

[Radish]

OK, OK....who's gone and buggared things up!!??!!
Why ME of course!!

I'm in Sunderland that weekend strutting my delightful stockinged legs around the town on my way toand from the theatre...Rocky hits Sunderland that weekend and so does Mr and Mrs Radish!!

Your DOOM might be delayed, Saracen , but be sure....eventually....you'll get yours!
Eventually.          

[rallymodeller]

Been doing some thinking on a modern world that would allow wars such as these to happen, and also on how all these groups would get weaponry.

This world would be much more balkanized and insular that the one we are used to -- no large groups such as the UN, NATO and WarPac. The New World would probably not consist of a few large nations, more likely many smaller ones (think the map from Crimson Skies). But since our focus here is on the Old World, as far as the Old would be concerned the New World would basically be just a source for armaments. Presumably the New World would have it's own problems to deal with.

The armaments race that gave us the kind of things we have would parallel our own but not equal it: the race to new armaments for each successive crusade would provide the leaps in technology that global wars did for us in the 20th century. This could also give an out as to why there are no nukes -- their need for conventional weaponry was just too great. Nuclear weapons would be known, just not in development as there would be no need seen for weaponry that powerful. I can see that most of the battles fought would be on a tactical scale. thus obviating the need for strategic weaponry of any sort. As Radish said, the idea here is to capture the land, not destroy it.

So back to the sources of weaponry. With commercialism and economics driving these crusades, and no such things as "end-user agreements", the markets would be wide open. Whatever the knights could afford they could have. One side effect of this would be that armaments, vehicles and aircraft that would be considered "obsolete" in our time line would stay in service for much longer -- possibly until they absolutely fell apart. A warrior would have his "trusted steed" and attempt to keep it as long as he could. There would be much more commonality as far as weaponry goes but for modeling purposes this would not matter -- things like common lugs for bombs and missiles (Soviet AAM's on a Lightning, anyone?) and common calibers for tank guns. And units would see aircraft (for example) of wildly differing types and eras serving alongside one another; F-105's and MiG-27's, to use one example.

That's it for now. I'll think on this a little more and see what else I can come up with. Perhaps a world map?

[BlackOps]

Sounds perfectly logical to me   I'm hoping to work on my Crusades spitfire this weekend.

[rallymodeller]

I think I want to elaborate a little on why stuff sticks around 'till they can't fix it no' mo'. In a minor modification of the way things worked back in the Crusades, the noble who raises a battalion is responsible for manning and equipping it, but the nation-state he belongs to chips in some of the funding, allowing him to buy more than he otherwise would have. However, after that initial payout, he is pretty much left to his own devices as far as maintenance and such (with the possible exception of munitions -- may have to think on that). So a long-standing ground-attack air division might have Typhoons serving alongside A-10's or Su-25's.

Which brings up another point. With this system, I don't think any one noble making an air force would have enough resources to field a complete spectrum of aircraft types. The crusading air forces would consist of "air battalions", each doing their own thing; there would be some dedicated to ground attack, some to bombing, some to air-to-air. There would possibly be some crossover -- a ground-attack unit would have maybe one or two interceptors on strength purely for airfield defense although in the "modern" era it would be more the province of AA guns and missiles. Every air battalion would by necessity have their own transport aircraft however, in order to move from airfield to airfield in this more fluid type of warfare.

An air battalion would move in on an airfield (or open flat space in the case of a lot of the ground-attackers) like a modern circus, totally self-contained and needing little other than some basic construction materials and possibly provisions from the surrounding countryside and populace. When the battle moved on, so would they leaving little other than discarded packaging and junk to mark their passing. Think of them like mercenary armies.

Amyone have any comments to make on this? Anything I missed?

[Daryl J.]

Respectfully, I'm lost.     But that can be the norm for me sometimes.


What I'm trying to figure out is where, in the scheme of things, to put my Eduard Morane-Saulnier 'N'.  

One scenario:  Clear Doped Linen, stained, and Italian markings perchance with the silly backstory that some bearded maintenance guy blotted his face dry after gashing himself on some of the sheetmetal with the cloth one hot day just prior to the aircraft relocating to Turin.  Some historian, full of guile of course, got ahold of that linen, folded it up in his barn for some time where the cheese was being made, and the True Story of the Shroud of Turin gets told!      



Daryl J.

[Radish]

Geoff....we're Crusaders.
We sacked Byzantium and the streets ran with blood.
We'll kill, slaughter anyone who gets in our way.
Slaughter....that's the way.
SLAUGHTER      

[SinUnNombre]

Hey y'all. I've been thinking about this thread, and its really gotten the gears going. If we're giving acient orders modern weapons, why stop at the Crusaders? Think about it, Saxons, Byzantines, Turks, Mongols, Romans, Vandals, Visigoths, all the Italians, Franks, Germans.....the list goes on. How about a Viking Merkava, finished in bare steel and covered with animal pelts and shields? Or instead of Hannibal crossing the Alps on an elephant, how about crossing them on an Elefant? Of course the aircraft will transfer over as well(I just happen to be on an armor kick at the moment). What do you guys think? Genius, or insanity?

Jon :dum:

[Radish]

ABSOLUTE GENIUS, tinged naturally with insanity!!

Love the Viking Merkeva idea....don't forget the Viking shields on the turret basket sides, the axes in the turret basket for easy grabbling, and the twin horns (yes, I know Vikings didn't have them!) on the turret sides.
Have a whol;e "charge" of Viking tanks, played to "The Ride of The Valkeries".

I've done an Apache Piranha LAV-25 with shields and lances, crewed with befeathered chappies....on patrol along the Apache/Aztec border.

I can see King Arthur coming soon!!  

[ysi_maniac]

Excuse me if you think I am lost.
Is there any pic of a model in these Crusader or Saracen fashion?
Where?
Alternative story?
Show us your projects?

Thanks

By the way, I have a MiG-29 and a Su-25 I would like (eventualy, now I am in armour fever) to paint Saracen.

[Radish]

There's some pictures in the AVON show thread....page 2 where Martin gives a link. There's some of my Sesquiplanes as well as a 1/35th Teutonic Knight's Leopard 2A6......

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index...showtopic=11016

[ysi_maniac]

Hey, I just think the concept modernizes the whole past affair.  What If it happens now, in our own time?

No politics nor religion actually involved, if you think about it.  It all boils down to simple but absolutely harsh economics.

The only "Underground Stream" truly being sought in this fictional "Crusade" is the black blood of the Earth: oil.  What makes the Holy Land 'holy' in this speculative instance is the location of said oil.

Once the global taps even show hints that the end of the finite supply is nearing, whatever symbolism supports the economic solution will be employed.

I have read this entire topic and I want to share my thoughts with you.

I basically agree with the point of view JHM expresed in this post.

I want to build some models assuming the following principles:

1) The 8th (no matter the number) Crusade takes place in 50s.

2) The history before this Crusade remains as real world, including WWII. Countries and states are also as in real world.

3) Christian orders (crusaders): Templars, Teutonic, Malta, etc are paramilitar organization allowed by European governments and secretly sponsored by Oil companies. European countries are involved because they are very dependent on arab oil.

4) Sarracen Army is more openly sponsored by Arab sheiks and governments. Arab countries are involved for obvious reasons.

5) Other countries like USA, USSR, China, ... are not directly involved, only as weapons providers.

6) Contenders, get their weapons in black market and customise them, sometimes intensely, in their own workshops. Governments allow these activities and also allow acquisition of second generation weapons from their national armies. In 50s, particularly, is there a big amount of WWII surplus weapons to buy and customise.

7) Biggest weapons producers are not directly involved because they are not so dependent on arab oil, but they have their preferences, so: USA uses to sell weapons to Crusaders and USSR to Sarracens but black market can change these assignments.

Armour and aircrafts wear standard camo schemes but they have markings to distinguish their unit or origin. As weapons are normally second hand, they should look weathered.

Please, give your opinion. By the way, my plans are a very sensitive matter. I only can give some data: Panther, Centurion, IS-2, T-34, ...

Thanks,
Carlos.  

[NARSES2]

Sounds perfectly feasable to me Carlos - and setting it the 50's means you have a huge amount of equipment to choose from - Renault FT's through to Centurions, BT7's through to JS3's etc

Chris

[Radish]

HAPPY....HAPPY....HAPPY (these pills are bloody marvellous)      

There can be an endless variety of universes after all.
I'm in a virtually elastic universe of multiple time continuums anyway  

[Daryl J.]

Intensely customized, Carlos?      

There might be room for a 1950's era ''Almost Lighter than Air'' Airship here too....lemme think.    Some done-up pre-war racer for post-war use in all this perhaps.

Perhaps a Mad Max'ed Amiot 153?  


[Edit]  Modified manned Fi-103 Reichenburg into ground attack machine, armor plated for pilot safety and re-usability of airframe.

Other ideas to follow,
Daryl J., always thinking aloud.