1964...

[Archibald]

On spring 1964 was the 10th anniversary of the french humiliating defeat in dien Bien Phu. At the same time, the USA were on the verge to start their own Indochina war -with the same results, Ie 10 years of bloody fight for nothing!-

On this particular day of spring 1964, french minister of Defense Pierre Messmer met its american counterpart Mc Namara. The two agree on a secret operation in wich France would back an american war against northern VietNam. France was willing to have its revenge (even 10 years later!) and the Americans badly needed datas about Vietnamese guerilla methods
(Khe San battle was very similar to Dien bien Phu, but the american troops were saved by a powerful aviation)
So the two ministers agree to involved France in the vietnam war by mounting attacks, using the dates of Dien Bien Phu defeat.
On 13rd march 1964, a devastating attack killed many american soldiers and french citizen in Hanoi. Others bloody attacks followed on may 7th, june and July. So french vessels join american carriers on Yankee Station.
The brand new Clemenceau was send to North Vietnam with the Colbert  missiles cruiser, Orage TCD and Jeanne D'Arc helicopter carrier.

SNCASE Aquilons and Etendards IV  striked North Vietnam gunboats at the end of August, along with Skyhawks and F-100. One Aquilon was shot down by a NVN
Mig-17, but rescued by a Super Frelon from the Jeanne D'arc.
The war urged the Crusader (FN) deliveries from Vought.
Commandos actions were send from the Orage TCD.
The war rapidly escalated, and AdA Mirage IIIE were send to southern Asia.
They started to bomb North Vietnam targets on 14th february.
Mirage IIIC were also send there in the air superiority role. On 3rd March 1965, a Mirage IIIC shot down a Mig-17 (with an AIM-9)  attacking Mirage IIIE.
A first Mirage IIIE was shot down by AAA the next day, and its pilot become a POW.
The Aeronavale quickly received its Crusaders and their first AA victory was on 16th may 1965, with 20mm gun.

Stay tunned...

[PolluxDeltaSeven]

Interresting... I think you finally have a chance to increase the Vautour presence in French Armée de l'Air!!

This bomber, could be a perfect plane for the SEA missions: great range (moreover with a refit and new engines in the early 1970's), a robust plane in order to deal with light AAA, good payload...
Well, it could be for the Armée de l'Air what the A-6 Intruder was for the US Navy...

And for the Mirage IV, you could use them for ELINT and precision bombing in North VietNam...

[Archibald]

Salut! Nice to have your backing in this english-speaking world
I've got plenty of ideas concerning france in Vietnam...
So on this sad spring of 1965, France is now deeply involved in the war. This mean that the Crusaders from the Aeronavale and Mirage III from the AdA bore the brunt of fight, Ie heavy losses.
French Crusaders have the R-530 AAM, which is the equivvalent of the sparrow. That mean they are superior to their american counterpart (only sidewinders). Sadly, the R-530 is crap, just like the Sparrow. But a French Crusader manage to shoot down a Mig-17 with a R-530... after its two wingmen and himsef fired no less than five R-530!!
Even if they have Il-28, the Vietnamese pilots never attacked the well-defended american carriers (because the AEW E-2 were efficient sentinels)
Sadly, there was no AEW aircraft on the french carrier (as we all know, the Hawkeye was too heavy for the clemenceaus...)
so a brilliant idea arose : why not E-1B, Ie the old AEW trackers ? They were replaced by E-2 in 1960-1965, so second hands were available.
More, france had no strategic transport planes. Why not the C-135B ? these USAF cargoes 707 were replaced by the much more efficient C-141 and C-5 after 1965... so they were, too, available for France! These plane were quite similar to the tanker KC-135, including... the C-135FR!!
So, in 1965, France bought 12 brand new C-135FR, but also second-hand C-135B (only for cargo).  

[NARSES2]

Interresting... I think you finally have a chance to increase the Vautour presence in French Armée de l'Air!!

Oh bugger - another one to buy once Special Hobby and Azure bring the promised kits out  B) All those lovely French unit markings  

Very good scenario Archibald, but in the "real world" wasn't France still heavily embroiled in Algeria at this time ? Forgive me if my French history dates are a bit out.

Chris  

[Radish]

Hey, Chris, time-lines and dates are "elastic".

[Archibald]

No problem. Algeria war ended in march 1962...and the evacuation ended in July. More, at the time, French economy was booming (better than UK )
The main problem would be the tense relations between France and the USA, even in this era (no iraqi war, but remember the OTAN case 2 years later)
But well after all we are in a paralel world

So France is now deeply involved in Vietnam, along with the USA. Foch and Clemenceau regularly patrol on Yankee station, sending their Etendard IV and Crusaders in raids over North Vietnam.
The problem with Etendard IV is clearly its weak payload and range. So the Aeronavale replace this plane by some Skyhawks or Corsair II. The Etendard IV nevertheless has some victories over north vietnam, because its more a fighter than an attack plane.

On may 18th 1966, a raid of Etendard IV attacking the Kep airstrip was surprised by MiG-17 and a furious air battle occured, in witch the Etendard prove more than a match for the Vietnamese pilots. 2 MiG-17 were shot down with 30mm guns, but one Etendard went down because of AAA.

The AdA was also present over North Vietnam. Mirage IIIE and IIIC were patrolling the sky and attacking ground  targets. As the F-105, the Mirage IIIE had some deadly weaknesses, particulalry the fact that it was a one-seater, overloading the pilot at low-level. Its range was too short... the AdA badly needed a better attack plane.
After the 6-day war, french pilots were send to Israel to understood how the Isrealis have had so much success with their Vautours. When they came back, the AdA send two sqaudrons of its Vautour to North Vietnam. Using Isrealis tactics, the Vautour proved much better than the Mirage IIIE.
In 1968, Vautour squadrons had suffered some losses so Sud Aviation (becoming Aerospatiale at the time) was ordered to re open the Vautour production line. The Isrealis, too, were pushing hard for that cause they really loved the Vautour.
The plane was much enhanced, using data gathered in the 6-day war and vietnames conflict.
Atar 8K50 (the 9K50 of the F1 and Mirage IV, whithout reheat giving 5000kgp of thrust) were mounted. To save money, Mirage IIIE weapon system was adopted.
Main difference was the two-seater Vautour IIN was used.
80 of these new Vautours were produced for the AdA, and 50 for Israel.

But the Mirage IVA would, too, fight in southern asia in 1970... stay tunned...
 

[Archibald]

In 1969, french C-135B (for cargo) and C-135FR (tanker) regularly fly from Istres to Da Nang, supporting french troops.
A task force composed of one TCD with commandos, the Colbert missile cruiser, Meuse tanker, Jean Bart (its 380mm guns were used for coastal bombing) and one aircraft carrier (Foch or Clemenceau) was always patrolling on Yankee station. The old Arromanche carrier or the new  Jeanne D'Arc were used in the Helicopter carrier role with Super Frelon for C-Sar.
Mirage IIIC and Crusaders patrolled the sky, protecting Etendards IV, Skyhawks Mirage IIIE and Vautour raids. Losses were heavy, but the campain (named "operation Tonnerre Grondant") keep on...  

[Archibald]

That's work! SMB-2 or F-100s for CAS.

You're right, at the time the main attack helicopter of the ALAT was the
Alouette III with AS-11 (replaced by the Gazelle HOT in 1977 or something like that). Yes, Cobras in french markings would be great!!! that's really a fantastic idea... I just love it.
We can imagine the following scenario
In 1967, some Alouette III with AS-11 were send to Vietnam, but this ended in a bloody failure: the alouette had no armour, was light and slow. Worse, the Vietnamese had heavy machine-guns and AAA so the losses were heavy. That's why the ALAT decided to buy AH-1 in limited numbers...

My idea is to use the A-4 only as interim attack plane. Then, in 1977 the A-4 and Crusaders are replaced by a multirole Mirage F1EM with M-53 engine.
There's no Super Etendard nor Jaguar in my alternate world, just Mirage F1E (with M53) instead (for both AdA and Aeronavale).

[GTX]

nor Jaguar in my alternate world

What, no Jag - but a Jag would be so nice in SEA paint scheme screaming over the paddy fields!

I like this scenario - what scheme would the Mirages wear - NMF or SEA camo?

Regards,

Greg

[Archibald]

But Great Britain was perfectly able to make the Jaguar alone ... and we saw in another thread that Great Britain, too, had fighting in vietnam along the americans. So I agree for Jaguar in vietnam, but on the british side (and don't forget that the Jaguar was late for the vietnam war : no Jag until spring 1973!!!)

Ok, the F-100 of the AdA could be used in the SEAD role, along with the Aeronavale planes. Main problem: they use the MARTEL which is heavier than the Shrike and Standard (and more efficient, that's why the HARM was created later). I doubt that the Etencrap IV could lift such a missile... for the F-100, maybe it was feasible.
This is another reason to replace the Etencrap by the A-7...
This gave something like French Iron Hands (main d'acier) A-7 with MARTEL missiles.  Nice thought!!

for the Mirage IV, here's the backstory...
In 1967, 9 Mirage IV squadrons were in alert for the french nuclear deterrent. But their day were counted, because the first ICBM (land based and on the submarines) took the alert right from 1968-1971. When this was achieved, the number of Mirage IV squadron was reduced to only 6... three squadrons were disbanded. EB 3/91, 3/93 et 1/94. Their planes went into storage...
But with the outbreak of the Vietnam crisis, they were quickly transformed to the conventionnal bombing role.
Modifications included
- Atar 9K50 replaced the 9K31, giving 800kgp more.
- A ventral, conformal fuel tank replaced the AN-52.
- 7 hardpoints were added to the 2 existing (underwings). They consisted of 2 external for self-defense AIM-9, and five under the belly (a central station was on the conformal fuel tank replacing the atomic bomb).
With such modifications, the Mirage IV could now carry
- 5 bombs, 2 drop tanks and two AIM-9.
Other possibilities were
- two MARTEL instead of the drop tanks, still with the AIM-9.
- two MARTELs under the belly+ the two drop tanks underwings (+AIM-9)
The plane keep on with its doppler radar.
EB 3/91 was sent to vietnam in 1970; Mirage IVs flew non-stop from Mont-de-Marsan to Da Nang, refueled various time by C-135FRs.
They were used in the SEAD role along with the F-100 and A-7, firing MARTEL missiles on the SA-2. They were more efficient than the Shrike and Standard of the USAF/USN...They were also used in the heavy bombing role at low level, as the Phantom and F-105s

[Archibald]

Maybe, but an Etendard IV loaded with a martel and a tank would be a kind of flying truck...
Various testimonies from French, American and NVN pilots to follow...  

[Archibald]

Mirage IIIC patrolled the north Vietnam sky, kiling some MiG-17, J-6 and MiG-21.

A cooperative training program was set up with Isreal, facing the same planes. When Yoram Agmon shot down the first MiG-21 in July 1966, some French pilots assited to the debriefing of this peculiar mission. SMB-2 and Vautour pilots also earned how to defend themselves against MiG-17 and -21 (the model Mounir Agfa had gave to Israel). In fact a detachment of French pilots was in Israel from January 1966 to July 1967, and some of them even took part to the 6-day war. Some french Mirage IIIC were painted in Israeli markings, as the Mystere-IV 11 years earlier... Apparently three MiGs were shot down by the french.
These pilots were send to Vietnam in late 1967, and the number of MiGs kill started to grow.  
In February 1968, the AdA decided to mount the operation "Gros Lot" to get ride off the North Vietnam fighters. A group of SMB-2 was used as bait; Mirage IIIC and Crusaders with R-530 and AIM-9 AAM were waiting them. The SMB-2 managed to escape the MiGs at tree top, up to the place of the embush. The Crusaders and Mirage IIIC killed 8 MiGs, including 3 MiG-21.

When the Mirage IV were sent to Vietnam, the Vautours were relegated to less defended targets.  Then, they were used in the ECM role; loaded with countermeasures, but also MARTEL anti-radiation missiles, they hunted the Fansong radars. Every Mirage IV group send to attack at low-level was not protected by 2 RAGEL Vautours...

Here's the description of a typical raid by the Aeronavale...
First to take off was an Atlantic I. This maritime patroller was  used to detect EM emissions of the NVN fighters, and flying CCC.
Then, the Etendard IV and A-7 were catapulted; the Etendard IV were in charge of the protection of the A-7 against the MiG-17, but also of the attack of secondaries targets after that. Some A-7 had Martels for the SEAD role (Main d'acier). The plane also act as flying tanker...
Then the Crusader armed with R-530, AIM-9 and 20mm guns were protecting the formation.
A Crusader pilot testimony...
"On 18th January 1968, I took off from the Clemenceau patrolling in Yankee Station. I took contact with the Atlantic I and E-1B which were monitoring the NVN fighter activity. I could see the Etendards IV and A-7s at low level; some of them had Martels, others had bombs. Some Etendards loaded with 4 AIM-9s and a ventral drop tank were in charge of the protection of the bombers against the MiG-17. We were protecting them against the J-6 and MiG-21. 80km before Hanoi, A-7s and Etendards IV loaded with Martels climbed at medium height and searched the Fansong emissions, helped by the Atlantic I far behind them. At 50kms, they fired their missiles which strted to climb living a smoke contrail behind them. I suddendly received a warning from the E-1B behind me "MiG-21 a 20km, de face!" I light my radar and prepared my 2 R-530. At 14km, I fired the left missile -but it went crazy and disapeared in the clouds- The other seemed to start well, and 1 minutes latter I heard the E-1B "You kill it!!" accelarating in full afterburner, I prepared firing my AIM-9 and suddendly saw them -MiG-21s bastards!!-

Stay tunned...

[glanini]

...... I love it, If just I had more time .........................

[Archibald]

Glanini, I really enjoyed you skill in profiles...I'm not too bad writting backstories, but profiles are not my cup of tea (well i dislike tea in general).

If you want to make a profile concerning this story, i'll be glad of a E-1B AEW Tracker in Aeronavale colors.
First in 1968 with the R-1820 piston engines, and later with turboprops (as so many Trackers maritime patrollers, fire fighters etc.)
In fact the french firefighters (Sécurité civile) use some trackers with turboprops along their CL-415. so why not the Aeronavale? more, an ehanced turboprop E-1B could became a low-cost alternative to the E-2 Hawkeye...

[Archibald]

"the MiGs were, too in full afterburner and they flew just over my canopy. after this was an incredible dogfight... I turned behind a MiG, and tried to lock a sidewinder on it. I push the button, and there was ahuge ball of fire - my first air to air victory- !! I suddendly heard my wingman "you have one behind you!!!" I managed to get ride off him. It was a real mess with Crusaders and MiGs everywhere. After some minutes like that, my fuel was low so I escaped the combat area. But the Atlantic frantically screamed in my ears "SAMs, SAMs!!!" Fortunately one of the main d'aciers fired its last MARTEL... and an AdA ECM Vautour countered the emissions. We escaped the dangerous zone and found the attack planes. One of the Etendard IV was missing...and the E-1B gave me the order to escort the Super Frelons C-sar. I replied I was low on fuel, but they said that  buddies-buddies A-7 were on the way. So I escorted the bombers up to the coast and then started to make cirles, waiting for the Corsairs II. Suddendly I saw them; I and my wingman (which have one AIM-9 and one R-530 left) positionned our F-8s behind the A-7s, and the flight refueling started. After that, we left them to the point were we meet the Super-Frelons. Five A-7s were escorting them, loaded with bombs and Martels. An ECM Vautour, Atlantic I and E-1B were monitoring the mission. Fortunately the Etendard pilot was not too far. He had managed to hide and escape the Vietnameses. But when he saw us, they saw it too and started an attack...not for along time. the A-7s attacked them, devasting the troops.
As SAMs emissions had been monitored, an A-7s fired one Martel, and started to patroll the area, searching Fansongs. But then MiG-17 appeared at low-level and attacked the helos. I quickly dived on one MiG, and shot down it with 20mm bullets. Alas, others MiGs arrived; fortunately, they were only -17. One of them damaged an A-7 with 30mm gun, but the bomber escaped painfully. My wingman killed another MiG with an AIM-9.
During this time, the Super Frelons had managed to save the pilot. But their gunners were straffing the vietnamese troops with 20mm lateral gun, firing by the door. One of the A-7 then smashed the troops with bombs, and even fired a Martel like a rocket, creating an enormous explosionwich send panic.
The super Frelon took off and headed to the coast at full speed, escorted by the
A-7s and F-8s. I was proud of my two killings...and just at the moment were I crossed the coast, an uxpected SAM exploded behind me and crippled my Crusader. I tried to regain altitude but the plane was dead and I was forced to eject, touching the water 10mn later. fortunately, the Pedro Alouette III found me before the Vietnamese fishermens or gunboats..."