Author Topic: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir  (Read 31652 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline ysi_maniac

  • Kit Surgeon First Class
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 6016
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #30 on: July 15, 2008, 06:24:46 am »
Spanish Air Force planned an upgrade program for their Mirage IIIEE. Kinda of Mirege 3NG, but without lerx, I think.
Will die without understanding this world.

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Don't need no stinking instructions
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 3380
  • What-If's "Uncle Jeffry"
    • http://www.facebook.com/jeffryfontaine
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #31 on: November 14, 2008, 10:28:23 pm »
Mirage III:  Would the intakes need to be significantly enlarged to feed the air-drinking Spey?   How about the tail-pipe area?

Having the requisite parts in both the Heller Mirage III and the Rev/Germ Spey engined Phantom it would be a fun kit to do.

Or....even the Mirage IV

Does anyone have a decent drawing of the Mirage III and Mirage V stores pylons?  In particular the pylons that are fitted along the wing and fuselage on either side of the centerline pylon?  I would like to know a bit more about these items since they are not provided in any of the Mirage III or Mirage V kits that are currently in my protective custody. 

How about a kit bash involving the Mirage III or Mirage V and a Mirage 2000?  Specifically the Mirage 2000 fuselage with the forward fuselage of the Mirage III or Mirage V grafted on to it.  This would give you the larger air intakes that you would need for the larger exhaust without butchering up the original kit beyond recognition. 
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline dy031101

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 2973
  • Prefers tanks and guns over swords and magics
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2008, 12:55:16 pm »
After browsing a page of Advanced Technologies and Engineering (a South African company):

http://www.ate-aerospace-group.com/popnews.php?id=88

I began wondering again what Argentina would be getting to replace their current Mirage fleet: ex-French Mirage-2000 or upgraded Mirage III/V (which is what the ATE page was advertising)?

The illustration on the webpage looks interesting- a Mirage V armed with two MICAs although as a fighter it'd probably make sense to fit a fire control radar in the nose...... based on what the page says, the upgrade would include elements based on the various modernisation projects for Mirage F1 carried out by this and other companies.

Is it possible to consolidate all airworthy Mirages and export Neshers into a single modernised standard?
To the individual soldiers, *everything* is a frontal assault!

====================

Current Hobby Priority...... Sun Yat-Sen tank, S-67 Blackhawk (models lost with harddrive, pending re-make)

To-do list here

Offline Archibald

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4984
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2008, 02:27:02 pm »
Problem : they are very, very long in the tooth. Plus there's a very large bunch of different variants worlwide...
I think it's time to give up Mirage III/V and start upgrading the fleet of Mirage F-1. At least 500 of them must be available on the market ;)

King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline Ian the Kiwi Herder

  • Other way around for me!
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4943
  • "I have a plan....."
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2009, 01:34:05 am »
Simply because I have an old Esci 1:48 IIIE in the stash atm and have a HobbyBoss IIIC on-the-way from eBay - although this will be RW. AFAIK, in 1:72 the old Heller III/V kit is still easy to find and I know from experiance builds very nicely apart from the terribly fragile landing gear. Don't know anything about the 1:32 Revell kit, nor the 1:72 Airfix, Revell and M'box ones. The 1:48 Heller kit has dreadful cockpit details but builds quite nicely as either a IIIC or B.

So the kits are out there, and the RW decals are everywhere, so what about those that should-have-been, nearly were or if-only they had ?? - Obviously I have an entirely selfish reason for posting this thread, I have the kit, our very own Glanini has produced some fine profiles, and I'm very close to cutting plastic  :wacko: - more inspiration and ideas that I can blatently steal would be very welcome. Anyhoos here's a few of mine:-

Obvious ones would have been those nations who opted for the F-104 in the early sixties, like Japan, West Germany, Norway, Holland and Canadistan. But IIRC, didn't France have a 'We will sell to anybody who can buy' policy at some point ? so what was to stop 'bad' nations like Syria, Burma/Myanmar, (Socialist)Indonesia or even China etc flying the III/V.

More prosaic, but in the early seventies a the Mirage would have been a superb and plentiful surrogate for the Aggressor T-38/F-5's flying with USAF/USN - as later-on the F-21 Kfirs were with the USMC. And dont forget - and the reason I bought the kit in the first place (cheers Martin  :cheers:) - The RAF evaluated the Mirage III, as a fallback point defence interceptor in the late sixties.

OK, that's it, over to you guys - Yes Radish, I know the Vatican Police Air Wing flew them in overall white with 'Clerical Purple' 'go faster' stripes on the fuselage and tail. Looking forward to reading what you come-up with.

Ian



"When the Carpet Monster tells you it's full....
....it's time to tidy the workbench"

Confuscious (maybe)

Offline PR19_Kit

  • Closeted Take That fan
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 29321
  • Whiffing since the 70s
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2009, 02:05:04 am »
.......AFAIK, in 1:72 the old Heller III/V kit is still easy to find and I know from experiance builds very nicely apart from the terribly fragile landing gear......

The 1/72 Airfix IIIC also has fragile landing gear. I built one as an RAAF IIIO some years ago and I've lost count of the number of times I've re-glued the legs. :( John Adams, there's a small market here....

And dont forget - and the reason I bought the kit in the first place (cheers Martin  :cheers:) - The RAF evaluated the Mirage III, as a fallback point defence interceptor in the late sixties.

The Mirage III/V looks good in the RAAF scheme, so it should look equally good in similar RAF colours, specially with an RWR set on the fin and a couple of Red Tops hung underneath...... ;)
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline GTX

  • Beyond The Sprues Guy
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 10820
  • "Princess"
    • www.beyondthesprues.com/Forum
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #36 on: January 03, 2009, 11:16:34 am »
Quote
Obvious ones would have been those nations who opted for the F-104 in the early sixties, like Japan, West Germany, Norway, Holland and Canadistan. But IIRC, didn't France have a 'We will sell to anybody who can buy' policy at some point ? so what was to stop 'bad' nations like Syria, Burma/Myanmar, (Socialist)Indonesia or even China etc flying the III/

Any of those would be a good choice.  Another might be New Zealand - possibly as part of a joint deal with Australia.

Still more might include Mexico or Sweden.

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Ian the Kiwi Herder

  • Other way around for me!
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4943
  • "I have a plan....."
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #37 on: January 03, 2009, 11:04:47 pm »
Still more might include Mexico or Sweden.

Regards,

Greg
Mornin' Greg

Mexico, yep I could very easily do that, Sweden, not really as it would fall between the Draken and Viggen (of course you could argue that in the What If universe, Sweden had never fully developed an independant aviation industry), and besides, I'm not certain that I could do another 'fields and meadows' project and retain what's left of my sanity !

Mexico eh....... Hmmmm Tan & Grey in the standard Mirage pattern...... Hmmmmm

Ian
"When the Carpet Monster tells you it's full....
....it's time to tidy the workbench"

Confuscious (maybe)

Offline dragon

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 1802
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2009, 11:29:41 pm »
Spanish Air Force planned an upgrade program for their Mirage IIIEE. Kinda of Mirege 3NG, but without lerx, I think.
Very remeniscent of the Mirage 50V that Venezuela just retired in 2008.
"As long as people are going to call you a lunatic anyway, why not get the benefits of it?  It liberates you from convention."- from the novel WICKED by Gregory Maguire.
  
"I must really be crazy to be in a looney bin like this" - Jack Nicholson in the movie ONE FLEW OVER THE CUCKOO'S NEST

Offline Ian the Kiwi Herder

  • Other way around for me!
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4943
  • "I have a plan....."
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2009, 11:39:04 pm »
Spanish Air Force planned an upgrade program for their Mirage IIIEE. Kinda of Mirege 3NG, but without lerx, I think.
Very remeniscent of the Mirage 50V that Venezuela just retired in 2008.
Agreed - almost identical

Ian
"When the Carpet Monster tells you it's full....
....it's time to tidy the workbench"

Confuscious (maybe)

Offline Weaver

  • I'm either dumb or evil - you decide.....
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 16593
  • Has a life outside What-If that is also What If
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #40 on: March 01, 2009, 10:42:41 am »
Just read an interesting article on British-engined Mirage variants by John Fricker (in an old Air International), who witnessed some of the Avon-Mirage test-flying himself and saw the results. Boy, was that ever a should-have-been....... The engine access problems that plagued the Avon-Sabre shouldn't have re-occured since the Avon was narrower than the Atar and used all the same mounting points and access points. Take-off and time-to-altitude were dramatically improved although speed at altitude wasn't initially. However the main advantages were 15% better fuel economy (which let it meet the RAAF specified ferry range, unlike the Atar) and carefree engine handling. Furthermore, the second stage testing (which never happened) would have used a new full-section afterburner instead of the Lightning one used initially, which would have given even more performance. However, he also attested to the deteriorating relationship between Rolls Royce and the RAAF: the former didn't clear his visit with the latter who then practically accused him of being a spy!

In a footnote, he mentions that the Spey-engined Mirage IIIK was proposed to the RAF as a Hunter replacement in 1964, "with the full backing of Rolls Royce": sounds to me like another round of RR's anything-to-undermine-the-Harrier campaign to me... :rolleyes: He confirms that the Spey-Mirage did NOT need a larger fuselage, since the Spey had a smaller diameter than both the Atar and the Avon, although he doesn't mention the issues of air intake mass-flow and rear fuselage cooling. The latter was the reason for the Kfir's enlarged rear fuselage BTW: the J-79 is actually narrower than the Atar. With the Spey being a turbofan, I'd imagine that the duct wall temperature between the core and the afterburner would be lower than the J-79, although it might well have needed a Kfir-style fintake for afterburner cooling.

Politics aside, a Mirage III airframe with a 20-odd thousand pound Spey (25,000lb was mentioned as being possible) sounds like a hell of a hot ship!  :wub:
Neophyte: Is Eris true?
Malaclypse the Younger: Everything is true.
Neo: Even false things?
MtY: Even false things are true.
Neo: How can that be?
MtY: I don't know man, I didn't do it.
Principia Discordia

Twitter: @hws5mp
www.minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline MAD

  • Scratchbuilds the entire model
  • ****
  • Posts: 733
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2009, 11:52:55 pm »
The other potential Wifs for the Mirage III was the proposed Boeing/Dasault Mirage III/ F-5 in competition with the Northrop Freedom Fighter.
I did a few a couple of years back - they are in the Glasgow show pics from 2007 IIRC. Mirage 5 without radar as the F-5A equivilent, IIIE as the F-5E, and US built J-79 engined IIIE as an agressor a/c for the US forces.
Also the Mirage III for the RAF.

This was the Boeing/Dassault Mirage IIIW if I remember correctly!
Hard to find anything on this program.
I even wrote to Boeing many years ago requesting info on it - with no luck!

M.A.D

Offline MAD

  • Scratchbuilds the entire model
  • ****
  • Posts: 733
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2009, 11:59:32 pm »
Hay Weaver I second your opinion on the Avon / Spey engine Mirage III as a missed opportunity!

I think not perusing the Avon-engine Mirage III was one of the biggest mistakes that the RAAF made. After all the Dassualt had done all the hard yards with mating the Avon 67 engine to the Mirage III airframe, with the adamant thought that the RAAF would jump at the Avon-powered variant, after all the trouble it had gone through with time consuming efforts of making the Avon-Sabre work!

And in all fairness, the Mirage IIIK in RAF service would have been far more versatile and cost effective than the EE Lightning series of variants, let alone the Hunters.

M.A.D

Offline ChernayaAkula

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4345
  • Deutscher Meister 2011 & 2012 - BVB 09!
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2009, 06:33:19 am »
<...>
And in all fairness, the Mirage IIIK in RAF service would have been far more versatile and cost effective than the EE Lightning series of variants, let alone the Hunters.

:thumbsup: And the F-104 Germany ended up with. :banghead:
Cheers,
Moritz


Must, then, my projects bend to the iron yoke of a mechanical system? Is my soaring spirit to be chained down to the snail's pace of matter?

Offline Mossie

  • Twiglet doctor
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 13405
  • Don't laugh at his mule
Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2009, 07:02:08 am »
And mores the pity, we built the Mirage first.  The Mirage series was directly inspired by the Fairey Delta II, just we did nothing with it. :banghead:
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.