Author Topic: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir  (Read 33206 times)

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Offline Son of Damian

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2006, 05:35:18 pm »
If Dassault had become a German/French company would Germany now be flying Rafales??? :huh:

Stupid question, why was there never a naval verison of any of the Mirages (Mirage III, V, F.1, and 2,000)???
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Offline Iranian F-14A

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2006, 05:54:36 pm »
This also brings up the point of if Germany had stake in Dassault,would it have still gone with the Eurofighter or stayed with the Rafale? Maybe a little of each?
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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2006, 11:45:05 pm »
Phantom wings and canards and vectored thrust?

Offline GTX

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2006, 11:59:15 pm »
Quote
This also brings up the point of if Germany had stake in Dassault,would it have still gone with the Eurofighter or stayed with the Rafale?

Very interesting thought.  Personnally, I think that if Germany had stake in D.  When you consider that the assault (probably would have been called something similar to Eurocopter), then the Rafale would have been more likely then the Typhoon.  Remember that the Germans tried to get Typhoon made cheaper/simpler a couple of times, including at one stage turned into a single engined variant (hello Gripen!).  When you consider that the Rafale is lighter and supposedly cheaper than Typhoon, it becomes very attractive to Germany - then add the dual ownership factor on top and you have a very likely Luftwaffe Rafale.

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Greg
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Offline PolluxDeltaSeven

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2006, 05:12:48 am »
Time ago, France was part of what became Eurofighter... If France decide having it's own plane, it was because Dassault and BAe were opposed in the leadership of the new fighter...
As France want a plane a little bit different than the other countries (including a naval version), it was decided that Dassault will build the French light multi-purpose fighter while BAe and its partners will build the more heavy fighter-interceptor...
(Here we can note that the Rafale/Typhoon seperation was close to be a 3 countries vs 2 countries when Spain was close to chose Dassault instead of Eurofighter)


In my own opinion, if Dassault and MBB were the same compagny, the problem around the leadership of the Eurofighter program would not have existed... I mean, BAe couldn't obtain the leadership against an heavy French/German industy...

So, here we are a 5 countries Tyfale or Raphoon  :P  
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Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2006, 11:07:12 am »
Stupid question, why was there never a naval version of any of the Mirages (Mirage III, V, F.1, and 2,000)???

Concerning the naval Mirages
- Mirage IIIM (the V is the same aircraft, downgraded for export) was draw in 1958 (instead of the Crusaders).
Sadly, it was not workable because of the delta wing. Landing speed of a Mirage III is near 200kt! On an iarcraft carrier, maximum landing speed is 130kt... so we bougth Crusaders instead
- For the Mirage F1, PD7 and I imagined what it could have look like in the 70's (to the 2000's).
In fact a Mirage F1M was tested by the french navy in the 70's but rejected. SEM was bought instead, and the Crusaders languished in the A2A role until... 1999 :dum:

A Mirage 2000M was draw in 1987 to replace the Crusaders, waiting the Rafale M. But such a project was not taken too seriously (too expensive, and once and again, the delta wing high landing speed and AOA )  
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
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Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline Daryl J.

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2006, 05:55:25 pm »
Had Germany and France worked together, perhaps even Kelly Johnson and all his Lockheed cronies could have sold fewer F-104s.

So....Denmark gets a Mirage IIIE in overall Green w/ Red/White roundels
........Belgium does the Mirage V in Tan/Green/Green/Fluorescent Orange
........Norway gets the Mirage in Gray/White winter wrap

.......and Red Flag keeps several for DACM exercises.........



Neat idea.....please be bored at work more often.   B)



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Offline Archibald

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2006, 05:37:48 am »
Some Mirage IV whatifs and ideas  

Fighters
- Single engine Mirage IV (no, that's not the Mirage III!
Bigger plane, and bigger engine Super Atar , 9 tons of thrust. a kind of F-105...)
- Mirage IVC twin-engine fighter (1958)
- Mirage IVA long-range fighter with rocket boost (R-530 missiles etc.)

Bombers
- Mirage IV* (with spey)
- Mirage IVB (with J-75)
- Four-engines Mirage IV (four atars instead of two J-75)
- Mirage IVM (for the Aeronavale)
(that's not a joke : single-seat, shortened Mirage IVA, folding fin. To operate from the Verdun, (= enlarged Clemenceau at 45000 tons) only as a nuclear deterrent,  like the Vigilante!)  
King Arthur: Can we come up and have a look?
French Soldier: Of course not. You're English types.
King Arthur: What are you then?
French Soldier: I'm French. Why do you think I have this outrageous accent, you silly king?

Well regardless I would rather take my chance out there on the ocean, that to stay here and die on this poo-hole island spending the rest of my life talking to a gosh darn VOLLEYBALL.

Offline Radish

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #23 on: May 28, 2006, 07:11:10 am »
Of course, you could also follow the Aussie way and use Avons.

When I was younger, I made a Spey mirage IIIK in 1/72nd be using an Italeri Kfir, cut down the upper intake above the fin to make that extended Mirage IIIC fin-type, then used an old Phantom (British, Matchbox) exhaust in the back end. I made pylons and stores from the Phantom kit (non in the Italeri Kfir) and painted it wraparound dark grey and Dark green.
certainly looked the part.

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Offline GTX

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #24 on: July 12, 2008, 11:27:10 pm »
Hi folks,

Over in the F-4 Phantom thread, I made the following suggestion:

Quote
it could be interesting also if the RAAF decided to take up the offer [of Atar powerd F-4Cs], trialed it, wasn't impressed but still liked the Phantom, purchased a batch and then decided to re-engine their Mirages with J-79s for commonality thus pre-empting the Israeli's Kfir by about a decade

well, here's my first take on the idea - the CAC Mirage III-79:



Note there are no canards at this stage but a full radar.

Regards,

Greg
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Offline Geoff

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #25 on: July 13, 2008, 04:19:54 am »
The other potential Wifs for the Mirage III was the proposed Boeing/Dasault Mirage III/ F-5 in competition with the Northrop Freedom Fighter.
I did a few a couple of years back - they are in the Glasgow show pics from 2007 IIRC. Mirage 5 without radar as the F-5A equivilent, IIIE as the F-5E, and US built J-79 engined IIIE as an agressor a/c for the US forces.
Also the Mirage III for the RAF.

Offline ysi_maniac

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #26 on: July 14, 2008, 07:38:36 am »
It is curious: this weekend I was thinking in this...:
During last decades, Israel had been the main fighter suplier of Argentine, selling them every Mirage variant IAF had, except Kfir? Why not Kfir, probably US gov would not allow J79 suply.
So, what about a M53 powered version of Kfir to be exported to Argentine? Similar mod as Mirage F-1 M53. What do you think?
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 09:21:25 am by ysi_maniac »
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #27 on: July 14, 2008, 08:14:12 am »
So, what about a M53 powered version of Kfir to be exported to Argentine? Similar mod as Mirage F-1 M53. What do you think?

Wouldn't it then have been a bit more expedient to just get France to sell Mirage F-1?

That is of course NOT to say that I don't think a M53-powered Mirage 50 or Kfir would look great.  :thumbsup:

EDIT: Confusion eliminated.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2008, 09:33:57 am by dy031101 »
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Offline Jeffry Fontaine

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #28 on: July 14, 2008, 01:49:47 pm »
It is curious: this weekend I was thinking in this...:
During last decades, Israel had been the main fighter suplier of Argentine, selling them every Mirage variant IAF had, except Kfir? Why not Kfir, probably US gov would not allow J79 suply.
So, what about a M53 powered version of Kfir to be exported to Argentine? Similar mod as Mirage F-1 M53. What do you think?
I believe the predecessor to the Kfir was the Dagger and the only real difference besides the name was the French engine that powered it instead of the American J79.  Correct me if I am wrong on this but I read somewhere that Argentina was provided a number of IAI Daggers and these were used during the Falklands Conflict. 
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Offline dy031101

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Re: Mirage III, Mirage V, Nesher, Dagger, and Kfir
« Reply #29 on: July 14, 2008, 03:31:15 pm »
IIRC Israel provided their unlicensed Mirage-5 (???) and Neshers (slightly improved & koshered M5? My minds a bit preoccupied at the mo' to recall exactly), termed in export parlace as Finger & Dagger respectively.

Nesher is the unliscenced Mirage 5, Dagger is the exported Nesher, and Finger is Dagger with Kfir avionics fit.

I have had a hard time believing claims stating that Neshers are Mirage 5 supplied in crates by France...... correct me if I'm wrong, but look at Colombian Mirage 5COAM and Argentine Finger- both allegedly have the same Kfir avionics fit, but Mirage 5COAM needed a (IMHO not-so-elegant) nose plug but IAI Finger didn't.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 06:10:08 am by dy031101 »
To the individual soldiers, *everything* is a frontal assault!

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Current Hobby Priority...... Sun Yat-Sen tank, S-67 Blackhawk (models lost with harddrive, pending re-make)

To-do list here