Anglo-french Spey Engined F-11f-1f Tigers!

[Zen]

Theres an interesting thought! Could French involvement have kept the RAF to the 'common FAW' that was the DH110?

Admittedly this would see the Sea Vixen start life with lower powered Avons, but with the RAF and the French using them, one could see a much more substantial development of the type.

The sheer scale would change the nature of the industry both in the UK and France.
Perhaps the stretched 'strike' variant would be produced as a 'interim' type?

Remind me, when did the Super R530 begin as a project?

[Archibald]

That's an idea I have for some months now... whatif the Vixen has become the
"F-4 Phantom of the 50's " ?
(I mean, whatif the De Havilland aircraft had been sold worlwide, as the Phantom did a decade later... understand what I mean ? )

First step would be, the RAF aagree to stay in the program circa 1948. The Royal Navy, too (As Tony Buttler mention in his book "the DH-110 has become one of the most important program in the UK")

So there would be no Gloster Javelin (no regrets!) in this case. According to my calculations made from B.S.P, the Vixen would have entered service circa 1953 (not in 1959!!!!).  

Then, French involvement. We agree that the country would need
- a Centaur carrier
or
- the common fleet CV
(Clemenceau plus " 1952 carrier" = 42 000 tons anglo - french CV)  
because
The Arromanche was way too little for the Sea Vixen, even Aquilons (= french Sea Venom) couldn't land aboard.

So a french Centaur from 1946 would be needed.  

Can't see why Atar turbojets couldn't be usedon a Vixen,
the Mirage III had both engines (the Mirage IIIO prototype of 1961 had an Avon because the Aussies already knew the engine. In the end they came back to the Atar, don't ask me why!). Few mods were needed...

So Atar powered Vixen would be cool.
In fact the Atar variant use for the Vixen would be a non-reheat one, and this lead to a conflict with the SNCASO Vautour... that the AdA used as nightfighter, thus refusing SNCASE proposal of building Sea Vixens! (from Jean Cuny, "les avions de combat français 1945 -1960").

The R-530 entered service in 1961 with the Mirage IIIC, so I suppose that its development had started circa 1957. Before that, SMB-2 and Vautours carried Nord 5103 AAMs (not very efficients!).

So, in the case of GB selling one of its Centaur carrier to France circa 1946 (no Indochina war) we could have Atar -101, R-530 Sea Vixens for the Aeronavale. Even better, the Vixen would be in service long before the Suez crisis. This would change a lot of things for Aeronavale pilots, which fought with F-4U Corsairs in OTL!!!!

Even better,we can consider a total failure of the F-3H Demon because of the J-40 disaster. Then, in the wake of the B-57 deal with USAF, the USN agree on a Sea Vixen deal. Mc Donnel Vixen sounds good...

[ysi_maniac]

That's an idea I have for some months now... whatif the Vixen has become the
"F-4 Phantom of the 50's " ?
(I mean, whatif the De Havilland aircraft had been sold worlwide, as the Phantom did a decade later... understand what I mean ? )

What do you mean?
I do not want to ofend anyone but for a Sea Vixen to be like a Phantom, she had to be born again, to be properly brought up and go to university.


Phantom phorever
 

[Archibald]

arf, my poor english! I mean, being an export success like the Phantom, Ie lots of countries buy it!  

[ysi_maniac]

arf, my poor english! I mean, being an export success like the Phantom, Ie lots of countries buy it!

Yes, but performance is a key point in export success. Of course, not unique, but very important.

[Lawman]

Actually, it was pretty clear, it simply means becoming a major success as a fighter, as the Phantom was. The reality is that, for 1953, the Sea Vixen would be an excellent fighter, with good performance, and excellent capabilities. The problem was that it only entered service when other fighters were already supersonic - it was a fighter of the early '50s, not early '60s. It should rightfully have entered service in the early '50s, and served for ten years or so, being retired in favour of a supersonic type in the early '60s. As it was, it was only just entering service at the very time it should have been being replaced!

If it enters service in '53, you get them serving alongside Hunters, and being replaced by Lightnings, Phantoms (?), or some form of interim type, pending the Mirage G4?