Anglo-french Spey Engined F-11f-1f Tigers!

[Archibald]

A lot, from Jean cuny's marvels "les avions de combats francais 1939-1945" (not very legal I fear   )

I've "extracted" four SO-4060 profiles, which correspond to the four variants mentioned above, and joined them into a single pic.  I'll try to post this and some 3-view this WE.  

Oh, and it seems that Spain wanted two Clemenceau's in the 60's. Add to this a 3rd French carrier, and you have now 5 Clemenceau's in Europe.
Then I'll be glad to add three more Clemenceau of a British order, giving a 8 Carriers , "european" fleet in the 70's.
That would be very useful for NATO in Northern Atlantic...

Then there's the problem of having a decent naval fighter for the three navies.
We already found that the Mirage G would have been an interesting choice, even for British specs (two seats, VG, long loitering time).

Then the engine... spey or TF-30 would be in competition... we can even imagine that European Mirage G would have a downgraded AWG-9 and two AIM-54.

Then NATO Clem's would form another line of defence against Soviets ASM bombers... (too much Red Storm Rising reading lol)

[aerofan]

Canada was looking into the Grumman Super Tiger during their search for the F-86 Sabres replacement in Europe. The RCAF eventually picked the Lockheed F-104G Starfighter because Lockheed would allow manufacturing in Canada which was something Grumman wouldn't do. The RCAF evaluation pilots actually recommended the Super Tiger and it was almost a sure thing until another NATO nation opted for the F-104's. Sure would have been interesting to see the Super Tigers in RCAF markings.

[Lawman]

Okay, how about this? The Clemenceau design is selected as the cheapest way for the UK to replace its current fleet carriers, albeit at the cost of having to use smaller, less capable fighters. Spain is able to buy one carrier, Australia buys one carrier, and Canada buys one carrier, and the French increase their order to three. The UK, on the other hand, buys one instead of refurbishing each of Victorious, Ark Royal and Eagle, and another to replace Hermes as a fleet carrier, allowing her to switch to a commando carrier. The result is a total order book for the basic Clemenceau design of no less than ten carriers! This allows the UK to retire all its existing fleet carriers, saving a lot of money, with the process finished by the end of the '60s.

The UK decides to build a new class of cheap helicopter cruiser, to allow the carriers to offload their helicopters, enabling more fighters on the carriers. The chosen design is similar to the French Jeanne D'Arc, though a little larger, and with better aviation facilities. They are built instead of the County Class, complete with AAW capabilities, but based on a large common launcher, based heavily on the American Tartar/Terrier launchers. This allows them to be upgraded over the years, to use new missiles, unlike the Sea Cat launcher on the County class... They are originally built to use a pair of the normal Mk6 twin 114mm guns, they end up being switched to a pair of 120mm Bofors guns.

The main fighter choice would be a derivative of the Crusader, which might make sense, especially the XF8U-3 Crusader III, or possibly a new design. The F-1M makes some sense, being highly capable, and probably capable of flying off the smaller carriers. The Crusader III, especially if its in a twin seat configuration, could carry three Sparrows and four Sidewinders, which would be a very good capability. This would still leave a pair of wing hardpoints, for air-to-ground weaponry, or more likely fuel for longer range intercepts. If you adopt a two aircraft airwing, plus AEW type of course, of Crusader III and Buccaneer, then even just 30 aircraft can be well worthwhile, but I wouldn't want just Crusaders.  

[Zen]

RN looked at the Clems and thought them unstable, the later addition of bulges improved them somewhat. When studying a 28,000ton CV (around the same size as a Clem) they concluded it was neither large enough to be a fleet CV nor small enough to be a Policing CV.
So they moved onto the 35,000ton study from '53 and where still discussing it in 1956. However I think this predates the bulges.
That said the Meduim Fleet CV seems to be the center of RN carrier ambitions until the '57 axe falls killing the SR.177, after that in '59 its called a Guided Weapon Ship, which suggests Seaslug.

Clems used British catapults Mitchel Brown BS mk5 standard, and I suspect arrestor gear too, but their radars where a mixture of US and French types.
Not sure about their engines, but I seem to reccal the name Parsons mentoned in that context.

The weapon Tychon, it was considered for use with rocket boost launched from a SeaSlug launcher and would've used various guidance options (TV, radar etc...) for anti-ship use. Not ideal, but certainly a development in the right direction.

Crusader III is a conundrum, I just don't know its TO and landing speeds or weights, find that and we could clear up its potential operability from MN and RN carriers.

[Lawman]

The alternative of course would be to simply have the Brits and French work together, and just increase the size of the Clemenceau design from the start. If it had been built a little bigger, say 35,000 tons to start with. This might have been justifiable based on experiences in Suez, where the larger British carriers demonstrated their superiority on operations. A good starting point might actually be to simply build them the same size as the American SCB125A conversion of USS Oriskany. This was a bit bigger than the Clemenceau, but shouldn't be much of a stretch. It could be easily justified based on France figuring that the Essex was the smallest practical fleet carrier, and thus aircraft would be unable to operate off anything much smaller.

As for Crusader III, I suspect it should still be able to operate off the ships, given the Crusaders's advanced wing etc...  

For the missiles, I still feel that the Terrier/Tartar launcher is a better bet, since it allows newer missiles to be integrated easily, in stark contrast to the Seaslug. The County class was crippled by being built around a missile that was practically outdated before they were all in service, and was antiquainted by the time the ships had served just ten years. In contrast, the Terrier/Tartar equipped ships were able to use later blocks, and make the switch over the Standard missiles, with only systems upgrades (i.e. not major surgery on the ships). Designing Sea Slug to fit a standard launcher, and then designing Sea Dart and Sea Wolf all to fit the same launcher, makes a lot more sense. It would have allowed Leanders to be given a standardised launcher, rather than having some fitted with Ikara, some with Exocets, etc. They would probably just come in a variety of magazine sizes, e.g. 32 rounds for the smaller ones, and 48-64 for the larger ships, and the cruisers could probably carry a pair of these launchers. The UK would then work to fit missiles around a standard launcher, with Exocet, Sea Dart, Sea Wolf and Ikara all being built to fit it. Ikara may pose a bigger problem, because of its airframe, but I suspect there would be ways around it, e.g. having fold-out wings on top, and an inline booster, in effect being a cross between Ikara and ASROC.

[Zen]

Yes thats quite a good point, Clems I think where started around the mid 50's (54-55 I think) so they slightly predate Suez, that in turn helps to explain why they turned to the larger PA.58 Verdun later on.

What was needed it would seem is actualy for the UK to take the lead slightly on this, and for that really we have two options, 1. opt for the 35,000ton ship earlier instead of the 1952 CV, or 2. ditch the Victorious conversion and start a new CV in 1950.

For France there is a problem with the size of the facilities, Clemenceau is about the limit on length, but I'm not sure about width, that limit is what constrained Charles DeGaulle too, the larger facilities at St.Nazair I think where later.
This also helps to explain why Verdun was dropped, it was'nt just the cost of the ship but the facilities to go with it, rather like with the RN's large carriers. CVA-01 was pushing things just that bit over the limit.

So lets try option1. its 1952 and the Victorious conversion is showing signs of being a much more involved process than they first thought.
Discussions start but recognising the limits on crew and aircraft numbers in the forseeable future the RN opts for the Medium Fleet CV of around 35,000tons, roughly an Essex sized carrier rather than the larger 52,000ton ship.
This is connected with the understanding new strike aircraft will enter service soon that can operate from such ships rather than a navalised Canberra.

Ships are laid down around 1954 and 1955, France seeing this process at work in 1953 shifts tack on the new carriers and follows the RN, building similar sized ships. What makes this possible is an increase in beam (which has the beneficial effect of making the French CV's more stable) and the use of the new Y300 machinary from the UK built under license in France.

Clemenceau and Foch are completed with 4.5" guns and their own fittings of radars and equipment, Verdun completed to -03 standard but with French SAMs.

Result is by 1964 UK and France have produced four CV's of this type, with in the UK another two building and in France another one.

-01 HMS Furious contains resued steel from Victorious and has short catapults of 145ft length, she also gains the six US 3"/70.cal guns purchased to get her in service in time, circa 1960. Raised to the -03 standard during 1969/71.

-02 HMS Glorious gets the full proper fit of 150ft and 200ft catapults, but again only six 3" guns though of the UK produced 3"/50 cal (I may have got the calibres mixed up on these), service is later in 1963. Raised to -03 standard in 1978/80
To fund this ship and equip her two of the Tiger class are canceled, its their 3" guns that are actualy fitted to the carrier.
this ship replaces Ark Royal, which is used for spares to keep HMS Eagle operational. Eagle will be taken out of service in 1980.

-03 HMS Courageous built to a new standard has bridal catchers, drops the 3" guns and is armed with SeaCat instead.  Laid down 1963 she enters service 1969, HMS Hermes is taken in hand for conversion to commando carrier.

-04 HMS Challenger (?name availability needs checking) laid down 1964, ISD 1970.

Decision to continue with just four carriers taken in 1967 as part of the financial stringency of the time, during much of the 1970's only one CV is actualy operational. Plans to scrap the fleet proposed by Minister of Defence John Nott halted in 1982, by 1985 RN is regularly operating two CV's at sea.
Plans laid down for a new class of carriers, anglo-french cooperation agreed, first CVN will be laid down 1989?

UK gains the Buccaneer, France navalises the improved Vantour(?)

[Archibald]

So, if I understand well most important points of your post guys!

- GB agree on 35 000 tons CVs
- The idea is not that GB  buy Clemenceaus in 1965 instead of CVA-01, rather...
- ... France and GB having a collaborative carrier program circa 1953.

In fact we merge the "1952 CV" and Clemenceaus. Brilliant! That's work for me!
This would mean that Foch and Clemenceau would probably enter service much sooner than in OTL, maybe around 1960 ?

French ships would keep their name (Clemenceau, Foch) I suggest "Gallieni" or "Joffre" for the third ship. "Joffre" sounds interesting as it was the name planned for a carrier launched in 1939 but scrapped after the 1940 defeat... (other was the "Painlevé")


Considering excellent relations between SNCASE and De Havilland (thanks to the 1948 Vampire/ Mistral deal) I see French Sea Vixens coming.    

Naval Vautour sounds excellent to me. Always thought that the SO-4050 was a kind of pre- Buccaneer (which, sadly, was never upgraded because of the
Mirage IV, Mirage IIIE and F-100s the AdA had for the strike role   ).

Feck, a 35 000 ton carrier loaded with Sea Vixens and Vautours would look awesome!

Ok, so let's say Sea Vixen for both RN and Aeronavale, then Vautour M and Buccs for strike.

What about Spain in this case ? with no less than 7 seven 35 000 carriers build, cost would be lower, so the country would probably be able to afford two of them in the 60's.

I see a Mirage G "International" replacing the Sea Vixen circa 1968 or so (see the dedicated thread).  
This result from scrapping AFVG, P.1154 programs,  Phantom and Crusaders orders, plus  merging OR.346 with its french equivalent, the DAFNE (Defense Aerienne des Forces Navales Eloignées, or long range fleet defender).

In brief,  the anglo-french cooperative effort of 1965 (which led to the Jaguar) include the Mirage G instead of the AFVG.

For info, 6 french "Escorteurs d'escadre" (20 of these 3500 tons ships were build in the 50's) were retrofitted with the SM-1 Tartar in the mid- 60's.
When they were scrapped circa 1985, two Tartar systems found their way on the "new" AA frigates Cassard and Jean Bart... which are still in service today with the SM-1, and totally obsolescent by the way   !!

[Zen]

Late 1953 is the ideal time, since the lessons are learned by then on the use of steam catapults, HMS Hermes design is completed around 1954, which seems to be the date when all the components of a modern carrier are brought together into one 'real' design.

Clemenceau is laid down in Feb 1955 in the real world.

It seems the RN Admiralty had severe doubts over the Tiger cruisers where worth the effort of completion in late 1954.

Hmmmm.....Eagles modernisation was considered in 1955, by 1959 it was expected to take 4.5 years to do. Admiralty was concerned about the time and
cost.

Also HMS Hermes was taken in hand for modernisation in 1964-1966.

So I may revise my estimated alternative.

June 1952 its clear Victorious's modernisation is proving difficult.
If the 35,000ton ship is developed then rather than starting in May 1953. IMO this is rather pushing it, unless the ship is begun as a design in 1951 or earlier.

Its possible the first ship might be laid down in 1953, asssming the basics of the hull and propulsion design are set by June that year. But this is expensive as the slip as booked for a liner.
Otherwise it seems the earliest available slip is January 1955

SO.....
1952 June work stopped on Victorious, decision taken to develope new design, 35,000ton Meduim Fleet Carrier opted for by late that year, design completed and first of class laid down 1955.
1953, and France is involved in the design, agreement to produce a fleet of carriers with common basic equipment.

June 1955 second RN CV laid down. Examination of Eagle modernisation decision taken to extend new class of carriers instead.

UK
-01 uses canabilised parts from Victorious. Completed 1960.
-02 uses steel and guns slated for Tiger cruisers. Completed 1961. Replaces Eagle.
-03 laid down 1959, completed 1964, built to a revised standard. Replaces Ark Royal.
-04 laid down 1960, completed 1966. Replaces Hermes
-05 planned for 1963 but canceld in favour of new design, new design abandoned in 1965 with change of government.

Possibility of sale of Hermes?

France
-01 Clemenceau laid down Feb 1955 completed Nov 1961.
-02 Foch laid down Feb 1957, completed July 1963.
-03 Suffren laid down Feb 1958 completed 1964.
-04 Joffre canceled due to economic constraints.

[Archibald]

Late 1953 is the ideal time, since the lessons are learned by then on the use of steam catapults, HMS Hermes design is completed around 1954, which seems to be the date when all the components of a modern carrier are brought together into one 'real' design.

Clemenceau is laid down in Feb 1955 in the real world.

It seems the RN Admiralty had severe doubts over the Tiger cruisers where worth the effort of completion in late 1954.

Hmmmm.....Eagles modernisation was considered in 1955, by 1959 it was expected to take 4.5 years to do. Admiralty was concerned about the time and
cost.

Also HMS Hermes was taken in hand for modernisation in 1964-1966.

So I may revise my estimated alternative.

June 1952 its clear Victorious's modernisation is proving difficult.
If the 35,000ton ship is developed then rather than starting in May 1953. IMO this is rather pushing it, unless the ship is begun as a design in 1951 or earlier.

Its possible the first ship might be laid down in 1953, asssming the basics of the hull and propulsion design are set by June that year. But this is expensive as the slip as booked for a liner.
Otherwise it seems the earliest available slip is January 1955

SO.....
1952 June work stopped on Victorious, decision taken to develope new design, 35,000ton Meduim Fleet Carrier opted for by late that year, design completed and first of class laid down 1955.
1953, and France is involved in the design, agreement to produce a fleet of carriers with common basic equipment.

June 1955 second RN CV laid down. Examination of Eagle modernisation decision taken to extend new class of carriers instead.

UK
-01 uses canabilised parts from Victorious. Completed 1960.
-02 uses steel and guns slated for Tiger cruisers. Completed 1961. Replaces Eagle.
-03 laid down 1959, completed 1964, built to a revised standard. Replaces Ark Royal.
-04 laid down 1960, completed 1966. Replaces Hermes
-05 planned for 1963 but canceld in favour of new design, new design abandoned in 1965 with change of government.

Possibility of sale of Hermes?

France
-01 Clemenceau laid down Feb 1955 completed Nov 1961.
-02 Foch laid down Feb 1957, completed July 1963.
-03 Suffren laid down Feb 1958 completed 1964.
-04 Joffre canceled due to economic constraints.

Sounds good to me! Aside french name for the ships, Suffren being a MASURCA missile-frigate of the early 60's (withdrawn in 2001).
Joffre sounds good btw.

I think one could build such ship (at least the french variant) kitbashing Heller Foch and Charles de Gaulle. It would give a nice hybrid    

Just a question : why staying at 35 000 tons ?
If you push your design to 40 000 ton, you can have a kind of pre - Charles de Gaulle, in a non-nuclear variant of course.
Even better, such size would allow AEW aircrafts to be carried, first Tracers and later Hawkeyes.
British, French and Spanish E-1B Tracers would be cool. You can upgraded them with turboprops in the late 70's.

[Zen]

Sorry should've made it clear the 35,000ton figure is standard tonnage, not full load, seems the RN kept using this long after it had any meaning, perhaps to confuse the Russians?

Full load is likely between 42,000tons and 45,000tons.

Yes Joffre, forget the name as I typed.

[Lawman]

1957 - After the American efforts to stop the Suez conflict, including threatening to withdraw financial support, both Britain and France decide the time has come for change. They propose a new Anglo-French alliance, to help offset the overwhelming American influence on NATO. They do not plan to leave NATO, just to form a mini power bloc within the organisation, as a counterweight to American influence.

As part of this deal, there is to be increased defence cooperation, particularly on aviation and naval technology, and to a lesser extent, on land forces. They agree on a joint carrier program, to build replacements for their respective carrier fleets. The French, having seen the advantages of the larger British carriers in Suez, decide that their Clemenceau design is too small, and scale it up, to match a previous British carrier design. The design ends up being 42,000 tons full load, and resembling a slightly bigger Clemenceau, but with a much longer angled deck, due to a slightly shallower angle being used. The carrier is to use three of the new British BS-6 250ft  catapults, which can launch a 60,000lb aircraft to 120 knots. Though initially thought to be ambitious, it is quickly recognised that these are necessary for the launch of the heavier aircraft entering service at the time.

On aircraft, it is agreed that the French will switch to using British powerplants in their aircraft, due to superior reliability. Britain agrees to cancel its TSR-2 project, in favour of a modified Mirage IV, with a pair of Olympus engines, giving it a good boost in speed. These engines even allow it to fly at low supersonic speeds for extended periods, and attain very high altitudes. These aircraft are to supplement newer generations of the Vulcan and Victor, forming an important part of the nuclear deterrent of the time.

The first carrier is laid down much quicker than many expected, after the enlargement of French shipbuilding facilities. Joint British and French crews work on the new ships, with the hulls built in France, then towed to Britain for completion and outfitting, again by joint crews. The hulls are laid down at one year intervals, as follows:

1958 PA-1   - French - FNS Clemenceau
1959 CVA-1 - British - HMS Vengeance
1960 CVA-2 - British - HMS Vigilant
1961 PA-2   - French - FNS Foch
1962 CVA-3 - British - HMS Vanguard
1963 CVA-4 - British - HMS Vindictive
1964 PA-3   - French - FNS Joffre

Plans for a final batch of one or two more British ships, and one more French ship are cancelled due to the economic situations in both countries.

Agreements are made to jointly develop a new fighter for use on the carriers, to enter service by 1968. In the interim, it is decided to stick with existing types, consisting of a heavily modified Sea Vixen, with a new 'thin' wing, and afterburners (actually modelled on the Swedish afterburning Avon from the J35 Draken). This is not considered a long term option, but is considered to be pretty much the only option for the time being. The French agree to buy a batch of these Super Sea Vixens, to operate alongside their new Etendard strike aircraft. The French carriers thus embark 12 Super Sea Vixens and 24 Etendards, alongside 8 Alizes, and a pair of SAR helicopters. The British carriers embark 16 Super Sea Vixens, 16 Buccaneers, and a mix of Gannets (COD and AEW versions) and Sea Kings.

The Americans, to avoid alienating the British and French any further, agree to provide access to nuclear technology and systems. The Skybolt program is made tripartite, with the British and French involvement focussing on trouble-shooting, making use of their own expertise in the field. The missile suffers some setbacks, but help comes from an unexpected source - a joint Anglo-French space project, Avro- Breguet! This solves the problems with the missile, making it ready for service from 1962, and the Americans want no less than 1000 missiles, with the UK and France each wanting between 100 and 200 missiles each. The French, lacking a large enough strategic bomber, agrees to buy a batch of 50 of the new Avro Vulcan B.Mk.3, to match the British order. As such, the Force de Frappe consists of four squadrons of Vulcans (each with eight operational aircraft, and two spares), and eight squadrons of Mirage IVs, plus two strategic reconnaissance wings of Mirage IVs.


The Americans also license a submarine reactor design to the UK, with permission for them to build them for France as well. This allows both France and the UK to field nuclear submarines quite quickly, especially for France, who are lagging behind. The deal is designed to ensure a strong British nuclear submarine fleet, before allowing the French to start, and as such, the Americans mandate that the French can only get reactors once Britain has eight nuclear submarines in construction. This is not popular for the French, but is seen as a better option than trying to do it themselves from scratch. Britain decides to order an initial batch of four nuclear submarines, using the British version of the American reactor, the Valiant class. The submarines are laid down at six month intervals, a major strain on the submarine building yards, but eased by having two yards building them. these boats are laid down starting in 1962, and enter service from 1964, through to early 1967, and before they are even finished building, the second batch is ordered. This allows the French to place their order in 1968, and the French order is for six ships, to accompany the third British batch of four.  

With the emergence of Polaris, the British and French see the need for their own submarine launched ballistic missiles, and agree to try to develop a joint Polaris equivalent. The Americans offer a similar deal to Skybolt, but the French are concerned about the Americans controlling their nuclear arsenal, but the Americans offer a 'clean' license for them. This is felt to be a better deal, and both nations agree to it. The UK decides to build the Resolution class, and the French build their own Redoutable class, all based on the same basic hull design, though with each nations systems internally. The French, not having the nuclear submarine building capacity themselves, allow the UK to build the subs, in a reverse version of the carrier deal (though British subs are fitted out in the UK).
The submarines are rolled out as follows:

1966 - SSBN-1  - British - HMS Resolution
1966 - SSBN-2  - British - HMS Repulse
1967 - SSBN-3  - British - HMS Renown
1967 - SSBN-4  - British - HMS Revenge
1968 - SSBN-5  - French - Le Redoutable
1968 - SSBN-6  - French - Le Terrible
1969 - SSBN-7  - French - L'Indomptable
1969 - SSBN-8  - French - Le Tonnant
1970 - SSBN-9  - British - HMS Retribution (thank you Geoffrey Archer...)
1970 - SSBN-10 - British - HMS Ranger (thank you The Spy Who Loved Me)
1971 - SSBN-11 - French - L'Inflexible
1971 - SSBN -12 - French - Le Foudroyant



As such, by the mid 1970s, the British fleet has no less than four fleet carriers, twelve nuclear attack submarines, six ballistic missile submarines, and an RAF owned nuclear deterrent option in the form of Skybolt.

The French, by the mid 1970s have three fleet carriers, six ballistic missile submarines, and six nuclear attack submarines. They also have a long range air launched ballistic missile, Skybolt, and an improved penetrating nuclear bomber, the Olympus engined Mirage IV, carrying a short range nuclear missile.  

[Archibald]

And why not an interim Centaur carrier for France instead of the Arromanches (from 1952 ?)
GB could give Bulwark or Albion to the frogs, pending the arrival of the
42 000ton carrier...  
Then France could kept the Hermes much longer than we did with the Arromanches (which stayed in service until 1974).
Just consider the fact that the Hermes is still in service in India today  
The French could use the Hermes as a second-line carrier (commando, ASW, as you like!) until 1990, then withdrawing it at the end of cold war.

[Zen]

Tweak this scenario.

Majestic CV's abandoned and focus instead on the second batch of Centaurs (there where two groups of four the second group was canceled), one completed for France pending the arrival of their own CV's, two for Australia last to Canada.  

[Archibald]

Very bien!

So, we can imagine that France receive Centaur carriers circa 1946 ?
They would follow path of the Albion / Bulwark / Hermes, but completed earlier (not in the mid -50's). The aim is to use their full potential (as the USN did with the Essexs and Midways) from 1945 to 1990 at least.

For france having a 28 000 ton modern carrier from 1945 would open interesting whatifs (particularly if you get ride of the Indochina war by keeping De Gaulle in power and Leclerc alive until at least 1948).

Hmm a fleet of modern Centaurs carriers of shore Port Said in 11/1956...

French Sea Hornets would be awesome    

Even better, the program which led to the Sea Vixen started in 1947 but the plane only entered service in 1959 (due to delays narrated in British Secret Projects, fighters).
Maybe having a french involvement in the program from 1948 would help I think of a backing of the Sea Vixen by the SNCASE (french public firm which had close ties with De Havilland from 1948 in OTL).  

[Lawman]

Another possible area for cooperation would be amphibs. The French Ouragan, if modified, could be an excellent amphib - stretch the helo deck to the bow (since it has a carrier style island already), and to the halfway point on the dock. This would still leave the aft of the dock clear for the cranes, and yet give a massive aviation facility for the ships. If you include a suitable hangar (there should be room over the dock if you look closely), then you could probably operate a dozen or so helos. This might give the potential to build them instead of the Fearless class and maintaining commando carriers - buy four, to operate in pairs, and you still have the helo capacity of the commando carriers, and more docks. They would have been the LHDs of their day, literally. Even if you stretch the design a little, perhaps to 12,000 tons, they would be even more capable. Add in the LSL logistics ships, and you've got a very powerful amphibious fleet.

Four CVAs and four LHDs would give the UK a punch it could only have dreamed of, and in particular, the Ouragans give massive numbers of landing craft, which is useful. One of the things shown in the Falklands was that you can use (civilian) RoRo vessels for amphibious ops, as long as you have the landing craft available to offload onto. If the UK had built more Round Table class landing ships as well, then things would have been even better - eight would have been a very good start.