R

Alvis Salamander, Stalwart, Saracen, and Saladin series of 6X6 wheeled vehicles

Started by RotorheadTX, June 18, 2006, 08:11:05 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

RotorheadTX

We've got a trio of modified Stalwarts here in Austin, TX. They've stretched the hulls and completely screwed up the Stalwart's good looks!! :angry:


Jeffry Fontaine

<_< That is the same conversion of the Stalwart that I seen on the company web page that was doing the conversion.  It looks even worse filled up with tourists.  As a stretched cargo carrier it would be an interesting conversion for me but the thought of painting a Stalwart in something other than camouflage or basic green and filling it with tourists is beyond me.
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Martin H

Quotecompletely screwed up the Stalwart's good looks!! :angry:
the words Stalwart and good looks just do not go togeather.

I can remember going to the British army run school near to the camp my dad was based at in germany, in the cargo area of a stolly. It was the only wagon available when the school bus broke down.
I always hope for the best.
Unfortunately,
experience has taught me to expect the worst.

Size (of the stash) matters.

IPMS (UK) What if? SIG Leader.
IPMS (UK) Project Cancelled SIG Member.

Jeffry Fontaine

What suggestions do you have for improving on this family of vehicles? 

I recall the Saladin being offered with a new main gun, some of these did serve in Kuwait and with other countries. 

How about a Saladin armed with a smaller caliber weapon such as the 30mm RARDEN?  Similar in some respects to the Scorpion and Scimitar that were armed with these weapons. 
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

GTX

How about some armed with missiles for the anti-tank (say Swingfire) or Anti-Air (say Rapier or even Tigercat)?

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Weaver

Guy across the road from us likes his off-road vehicles and actually had a REAL Stalwart for a bit  :wub: :wub: :wub: Think he got rid of it when he realised how difficult they are to service, though..... The Stalwart's such a natural "moon buggy" that it almost feels like cheating.....

During the first Gulf War, a holiday maker in Kuwait City got some footage of a Kuwaiti Saladin fighting the Iraqis: playing shoot'n'scoot around the back streets with T-72s..... :blink: :bow:

The Saladin/Saracen have lots of potential for upgrading, although the only ones I can remember off-hand are diesel engine upgrades and tropical air-con mods. You could fit just about any auto-cannon to the Saladin. It would certainly take the Israeli/Italian 60mm HV gun, the South African 76mm (Rooikat) or a 90mm low velocity weapon like the French H-90 or the Cockerill. If you wanted a high-velocity 90mm, then a complete new turret might be the better option, with the GIAT TS-90 (Panhard ERC) being the obvious choice.

The Saracen's awkward to up-gun significantly due to the narrow roof, but a more modern MG turret, perhaps with a .50 cal, should be possible, and any small/medium RWS, of course.

Regarding Greg's suggestion of ATGWs, the British Army's wheeled ATGW carrier of the time was supposed to be the Ferret Mk.4 with 4 x Swingfire and an MG, but this proved unsatisfactory, partly due to lack of reloads. Since the normal Ferret turret was the same as the Saracen's this implies that the Mk.4 turret could also have been fitted to the Saracen, which could then (with a bit of body-remodeling) have had semi-under-armour reloading.

There was also an earlier Ferret variant with two Vigilant ATGWs on the sides of the normal turret, which could obviously have also been applied to the Saracen.

I think that Rapier, and certainly Tigercat, would have been a bit big for the Saracen/Stalwart chassis. There's a drawing in BSP4 of a proposed armoured Tigercat based on a Centurion chassis and it still looks big and awkward. Remember that in their field mount form, these systems have their aiming systems on separate mountings. To put all that onto one vehicle, you either have to keep them separate, wherupon the closer spacing compromises the aiming arcs to a greater degree, or build them all into one turret, which then gets big.

Blowpipe/Javelin would be interesting on the Saracen though. Vickers developed a naval system called SLAM which had 6 x Blowpipes wrapped around a TV camera on a telescopic pedestal mount, the idea being that it could be stored retracted into a pressure cylinder in the fin of a submarine and then extended above the surface from periscope depth. A non-retracting version was also proposed for use on surface vessels and hovercraft, so it seems reasonable to suggest that it could have been mounted on an AFV too.


Another interesting line to take might be foreign-customer home-grown or improvised re-arms, say by a country that lost British support. How about a Saracen with a Chinese-style shielded DShK mount, or the original turret re-fitted with a PKT and an 82mm RR on the side in the style of Czech APCs? In the absence of UK ammo supply, the Saladin might be re-fitted with the 76mm from the PT-76, or the 73mm gun from the BMP-1, together with it's Sagger ATGW launcher on the turret roof. A Stalwart "technical" could provide AAA cover with a Zu-23 mount in the flat bed.... :wub:

I have a couple of JB Saladins (a vehicle for which I have an irrational affection) in the stash. One is nominally earmarked as an up-gunned, up-armoured Cheshire Army example, the other for a cheesy sci-fit project........
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Morpheus in Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones '

Aircav

Saladin was tried with two missile boxes, one either side of the turret but how about a new turret with 4 HOT missiles. You could also convert the rear load area of a Stalwart and fit some sort of Raiper turret launcher with spare reloads, mind you'd have to watch out for engine fires  ;D
"Subvert and convert" By Me  :-)

"Sophistication means complication, then escallation, cancellation and finally ruination."
Sir Sydney Camm

"Men do not stop playing because they grow old, they grow old because they stop playing" - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Vertical Airscrew SIG Leader

Aircav

Quote from: Weaver on October 31, 2008, 02:45:15 PM
Guy across the road from us likes his off-road vehicles and actually had a REAL Stalwart for a bit  :wub: :wub: :wub: Think he got rid of it when he realised how difficult they are to service, though..... The Stalwart's such a natural "moon buggy" that it almost feels like cheating.....

Sure it wasn't something to do with 6 mile per gallon ;D
"Subvert and convert" By Me  :-)

"Sophistication means complication, then escallation, cancellation and finally ruination."
Sir Sydney Camm

"Men do not stop playing because they grow old, they grow old because they stop playing" - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Vertical Airscrew SIG Leader

Jeffry Fontaine

Quote from: Aircav on October 31, 2008, 02:46:44 PMSaladin was tried with two missile boxes, one either side of the turret but how about a new turret with 4 HOT missiles. You could also convert the rear load area of a Stalwart and fit some sort of Raiper turret launcher with spare reloads,

The JED Site mentions several of these variations on the same theme for the Saladin. 

Quote from: Aircav on October 31, 2008, 02:46:44 PMmind you'd have to watch out for engine fires
It certainly would be prudent to look for a suitable diesel engine replacement to reduce that fire hazard.
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

kitnut617

Quote from: Weaver on October 31, 2008, 02:45:15 PM
Guy across the road from us likes his off-road vehicles and actually had a REAL Stalwart for a bit  :wub: :wub: :wub: Think he got rid of it when he realised how difficult they are to service, though..... The Stalwart's such a natural "moon buggy" that it almost feels like cheating.....

Anyone remember that TV show that used to be on years ago, talking late 60's or early 70's (and in the UK).  It was where off-roaders used to race through this big swamp and Stalwarts were a regular competitor.  It was on that show that someone turned up with a two engined Mini Moke, one regular engine and the other where the rear seats were.
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

Mossie

The Salamander is the lesser known member of the family, an airfield fire tender used by the RAF, not a lot were built.  I guess you could find some civilian uses for the chassis, it might be useful in snow, dessert or rough terrain.


Quote from: Weaver on October 31, 2008, 02:45:15 PM
I have a couple of JB Saladins (a vehicle for which I have an irrational affection) in the stash. One is nominally earmarked as an up-gunned, up-armoured Cheshire Army example, the other for a cheesy sci-fit project........



:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Did this Berlin Brigade Saracen myself from the JB Saracen, just a paint job change, thought the block paint job would suit the angular lines of the Saracen:


While trying to find a pic of the Challenger Marskman for the Chieftain/Chally thread, I came across a pic of a Saracen with what looked like a 76mm gun on a slightly larger turret, but can I find the b****r now???
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

Jeffry Fontaine

Found this link for Mike Thorpe's 1/8th scale Saladin while doing a search on the Alvis Stalwart.  Really impressive remote control model. 
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Aircav

"Subvert and convert" By Me  :-)

"Sophistication means complication, then escallation, cancellation and finally ruination."
Sir Sydney Camm

"Men do not stop playing because they grow old, they grow old because they stop playing" - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Vertical Airscrew SIG Leader

kitnut617

Quote from: Mossie on October 31, 2008, 05:38:40 PM
The Salamander is the lesser known member of the family, an airfield fire tender used by the RAF, not a lot were built.  I guess you could find some civilian uses for the chassis, it might be useful in snow, dessert or rough terrain.


Yeah, now we're talking, an off-road motorhome  :thumbsup:
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

Mossie

Might be useful in Canada as a tundra buggy!

Talking of civvy conversions, I found this pic of a stretched Stolly used as an amphibious tour bus, similar to many DUKW's.  This should have a third wheel at the rear, seen on a seperate site that it's up for sale.  There's pics of standard Stolly's with a simple canopy roof to keep the worst of the water & elements off.


A stretched (maybe not as big as this one) Stally may have military applications, maybe even a 8x8 version?
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.