Author Topic: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas  (Read 32728 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GTX

  • Beyond The Sprues Guy
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 10820
  • "Princess"
    • www.beyondthesprues.com/Forum
Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« on: September 06, 2008, 02:41:02 pm »
Hi folks,

Funnily enough, we don't appear to have a thread dedicated to Messerschmitt Bf109 Whiff Ideas, so here goes.

My first idea is a float equipped 109F model with a single centreline float:



More ideas to follow - please feel free to add your own.

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Maverick

  • One could even call him a 'meatatarian'
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4004
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2008, 03:26:11 pm »
Uh Greg,

The Germans did trial both twin & centreline floatie 109s and I think they may have even been Friedrichs.

Regards,

Mav

Offline Daryl J.

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
  • This is the Age of Imaginarius
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #2 on: September 06, 2008, 05:18:01 pm »
At the risk of being a JMN, no floater 109's ever existed in prototype form.......It's one of history's greatest aviation what-ifs.

Some years back, the Hobbycraft Bf-109B began a merge with a Kingfisher and a Rufe for a Floaterschmitt but has resided in the requisite box since before the twins were born.



I'd love to do a Bf-109K race plane in the Reno Unlimited fashion.    Additionally, I'd love to do a cloth wing, rather ratted out Bf-109B1a in Der Linen markings, perhaps missing a gun or two in heavily weathered clear doped linen and a deeply faded overall RLM-79 on the metal surfaces. The sand filter would be some slatted up rusted can.  Fixed landing lights also would be suspended in some sort of bucket on each wing on the bottom side.  Even the wood prop could be splitting and held together with duct tape.   Why not....it's the Age of Imaginarius!   :thumbsup:


If anyone has not seen it, the best What-if 109 project I've ever had the pleasure of seeing up close and personal is Chris Binnet's Officer Extraction Pack.


Don't you love that?   ^
                               |
                               |


« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 05:29:45 pm by Daryl J. »

Offline Maverick

  • One could even call him a 'meatatarian'
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4004
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #3 on: September 06, 2008, 06:03:01 pm »
Daryl,

I'd been of the assumption that at least one of each type were trialled.  Whilst this is possibly in error, two things come to mind:

1) A Bf-109 floatie is an idea that was at least considered by the Luftwaffe and not the original workings of a whiffers mind.

2) I'm surprised that the Amodel Bf-109W (twin floats) kit (with registration serials) hasn't been pulled apart by the JMNs as a work of fiction.

Regards,

Mav

Offline Daryl J.

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 2946
  • This is the Age of Imaginarius
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #4 on: September 06, 2008, 06:23:10 pm »
Mav,

Me too.   The  Bf-109W in any form was, however, heavily ripped  in the early days of Hyperscale and is my reference.   That is partly why the HC kit began a trip into the wet wet world of seawater combat.   :thumbsup:     The passion for accuracy on the -109 has much to do with my enthusiasm regarding this site.  LoL.

How 'bout a -109 on twin floats, cloth wing, cloth aft fuselage half (the 109 couldn't be built this way....which is perfect!), cloth tail empennage, and an external supercharger? 
 :cheers:,
Daryl J.


Offline Maverick

  • One could even call him a 'meatatarian'
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4004
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #5 on: September 06, 2008, 06:38:19 pm »
Daryl,

I can't say I'm surprised that Hyperscale would have had 'issues'  :rolleyes:

I guess that Amodel kits are below the ubermodellers on there  :lol:

The retro 109 floatie has a degree of merit, although I'd most likely go with the centreline float platform as it always seems just that shade more sexy in my eyes.  If you were going fabric for a majority of the structure, you could also consider an open cockpit to boot.

Regards,

Mav

PS, another couple of thoughts come to mind.

For the build, perhaps a radial just to destroy the original lines a shade more & 'cause naval types seem to prefer 'em.

For Hyperscale, I'd take a rather large grain of salt with any of their self appointed experten's pontifications.  It was amongst the first of the review sites on the web that I noticed glaring errors regarding certain issues being touted as the Gospel according to the Book of JMN.  It wouldn't be the first time that Hyperscale has been wrong, and noticably wrong at that.

One recent issue that comes to mind was a review on a Boomerang, where the reviewer noted the type as serving with the "Australian Air Force".  Excuse me.. we did get the "Royal" title quite a few years back and were amongst the first established "Air Forces" as opposed to a branch of the Army.  When I emailed them, the reviewer came back with 'I didn't know', I asked myself 'why then do a review if your knowledge of the subject matter is so abysmal?'

Regards,

Mav
« Last Edit: September 06, 2008, 06:50:57 pm by Maverick »

Offline Weaver

  • I'm either dumb or evil - you decide.....
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 16835
  • Has a life outside What-If that is also What If
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #6 on: September 06, 2008, 06:58:27 pm »
That Officer Extraction pack is genius!  ;D ;D ;D

On my "to-do" list is a turbo-109 for Patchwork World. This will have a 262 canopy (the Smer one fits because it's underscale  :mellow:) and swept wings made from 262 outer panels. The engine will use the same cowling as the standard plane, but it'll have a hollow spinner intake and a damn great exhaust pipe on one side. The rationale is that, instead of the usual elongated nose used to restore the CofG when fitting a light turboprop in place of a heavy IC engine, this aircraft moves the centre of lift back by using slightly swept wing. It'll probably have the 262's much bigger tailplanes as well, to compensate for the reduced tail moment arm.
Neophyte: Is Eris true?
Malaclypse the Younger: Everything is true.
Neo: Even false things?
MtY: Even false things are true.
Neo: How can that be?
MtY: I don't know man, I didn't do it.
Principia Discordia

Twitter: @hws5mp
www.minds.com: @HaroldWeaverSmith

Offline elmayerle

  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 6392
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #7 on: September 06, 2008, 07:52:48 pm »
I can see good arguements either way for single- or twin-float Bf109s, but I'd want canted struts for the twin-floats so that the float structure tied into the man aircraft structure at the main landing gear trunnions, simply to reduce the amount of structural change required for float-equipped versions.  Think of the ski-equipment trialed on '109s but with longer streamlined legs and floats instead of skis.
"Reality is the leading cause of stress amongst those in touch with it."
--Jane Wagner and Lily Tomlin

Offline Radish

  • His (or Her) Majesty, Queen Caroline of the Midlands, Resident Drag Queen
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 11860
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2008, 01:04:52 am »
Of course there's always the Bf-109Z-10, the production Zwilling '109 with the features of the G-10 and K-4.
This saw service throughout the Reich and its allies.
The Bf-109G-10(P), the "parasol" fighter used to protect villages in the East. This had a large Parasol fitted behind the cockpit, which acted as a rotating lift source (and on the ground a sun shade!). It had stub wings. I built this one....wonder where it is?
The V-tail versions existed in late war configuration, and the K-18 was equipped with 2 30mm cannons.

Don't forget that the late war G-10s and K-4s were also widely used by Germany's Allies...Bulgaria, Latvia, Spain, Iraq, Finland, Portugal, Vichy France, etc..
The Estonian G-10s had a delightful three-colour white, blue, gret scheme with yellow theatre markings.
And the Vichy French K-4s that served on the Russian Front kept their red/yellow identification markings, as well as yellow fuselage bands and wingtips. These looked spectacular on the all-white Winter-finished '109Ks.

There are rumours that an SS squadron of dissident British pilots served on the Eastern Front under the St.George Division, and these aircraft carried a red/white St.George's flag on the fuselage.

Once you've visited the land of the Loonies, a return is never far away.....

Still His (or Her) Majesty, Queen Caroline of the Midlands, Resident Drag Queen

Offline Taiidantomcat

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4382
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2008, 08:05:09 pm »
In the Luft-46 comic by Ted Nomura the SS has its own air wing. I dont think an SS 109 is bad what-if idea either, considering that the Luftwaffe had field divisions and every nazi party official wanted more "toys" if you will. could even go so far as to say that the SS would want their own distinct markings and paint schemes/colors.
"Imagination is the one weapon in the war against reality." -Jules de Gaultier

"My model is right! It's the real world that's wrong!" -global warming scientist

An armor guy, who builds airplanes almost exclusively, that he converts to space fighters-- all while admiring ship models.

Offline GTX

  • Beyond The Sprues Guy
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 10820
  • "Princess"
    • www.beyondthesprues.com/Forum
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #10 on: September 07, 2008, 11:30:57 pm »
During 1941/42 as Messerschmitt developed the  "Gustav" model of the Bf-109, it was decided to also develop a twin engined version of the aircraft.  This would serve a number of purposes:

  • It would be higher powered for minimal weight increase;
  • It could replace the Bf-110 and failed Me-210;
  • It could carry heavy armarment; and most importantly
  • It would have high commonality with the single engined variants thus allowing for greater production, shared tooling and common training.

The result was simply designated the Bf-109Y (partly to confuse the Allies and also that it was almost a Me-109Z).



Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline joncarrfarrelly

  • Bertie Bassett
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 7072
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #11 on: September 07, 2008, 11:49:02 pm »
Howabout the tri-motor?

 ;D

Actually a drawing for a wind-tunnel model used in 110 development.

Jon
"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline elmayerle

  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 6392
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #12 on: September 08, 2008, 12:07:18 am »
I think I'd reshape the nose for heavy cannon and go with two engines, as well as move the cockpit forward so the pilot could actually see decently over the nose during taxi, takeoff, and landing.  I wonder what a single-seat heavy fighter version of the as-built Bf110 would look like?  I can see several ways it could evolve.
"Reality is the leading cause of stress amongst those in touch with it."
--Jane Wagner and Lily Tomlin

Offline blue520

  • Out of the Whiffing Closet
  • **
  • Posts: 76
    • http://
Re: Messerschmitt Bf109 Ideas
« Reply #13 on: September 08, 2008, 08:51:22 am »
Just an idea - A Gull Winged with short rearward retracting landing gear Bf-109 as a replacement for the Ju-87 in dive bombing & ground attack (underwing removable gunpods) with some air defence ability & as a alternative design to the Bf-109T (reducing the problems of the landing gears narrow track & combination sea fighter/attack/dive bomber)?

Offline sequoiaranger

  • Gone but not Forgotten
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • **********
  • Posts: 2363
  • Old Fart with too much time on his hands!
The Bf-109Y
« Reply #14 on: September 08, 2008, 04:37:16 pm »
It would seem that this Westland-Whirlwind-type fighter would have an awful lot of weight forward of the center of lift of the main wings (two engines and armament). Might need a longer tail and some sort of balancing weights. The Whirlwind had smaller, lighter engines than the presumed DB605's that the Bf-109Y might have.

Still, a hot looking aircraft!
My mind is like a compost heap: both "fertile" and "rotten"!