Had Rutan designed the B-17...

[Hobbes]

I for one am in total agreement with the current crop of Chinese demonstration's even though they may not be truely spontaneous.

When those demonstrations are about Japan's actions in WW2, I agree. But not when the Chinese use those same demonstrations to force Japan to stop protesting the Chinese plans to invade Taiwan.  

[nev]

Exactly.  At the same time as the Chinese "anger" over these schoolbooks come veiled threats of military action if Japan carries on exploring oil fields in disputed international waters.  So thats 2 free, democratic countries that China have threatened with military action in 2 months.  Way to go China.  And Chirac wants to sell arms to these people??  :dum:

What I find interesting is how Germany and Japan have both had their countries devestated & occupied, been financed by the US to rebuild their economy, become major world players, and are both strongly pacifist.  Yet Germany to this day wallows in guilt and self loathing over WW2, Japan wallows in self-pity regarding themselves as the victims and not the aggressors...

Wow, major thread hijack...  :f16:

Um...how about a Rafale in Chinese marking?  Taken from the Trumpeter J-10, which will be Israeli...?

[NARSES2]

I for one am in total agreement with the current crop of Chinese demonstration's even though they may not be truely spontaneous.

When those demonstrations are about Japan's actions in WW2, I agree. But not when the Chinese use those same demonstrations to force Japan to stop protesting the Chinese plans to invade Taiwan.

Exactly Hobbes - I should have been clearer

[Captain Canada]

Um...how about a Rafale in Chinese marking?  Taken from the Trumpeter J-10, which will be Israeli...?

Geez, you're onto something there, Nev ! A whole fleet of French weaponry in Chinese colours.....you could even have a nuclear carrier or two !

[lancer]

I wonder Lee how you regard the Japanese and their actions during the war years before and during WW2? You are quite blunt about the SS and I find myself in total agreement. Those bastards were aquanted with the Genevia Convention and the matters of honour expected from any Western power. What they did by their own standards counted as attrocities. And lets not forget what happend to the Jewish people.
But myself, I am at kind of a loss as to my feelings regarding the Japanese. Their code of conduct, the way they were trained and raised and their traditions of Bushido that were reborn during the expansionist period didn't recognise their enemies as anything other than something far less than human once they surrendered. The average Japanese had little western knowledge and certainly were not trained in the edicate of Western military conduct. In fact many during the war crimes trials argued that they fought honourably by the standards they were accustomed to. Our western standards being different caused considereable difficulties.
Japanese rarely surrendered, their honour didn't allow it. Nor did they understand their enemie's surrender. They saw it as dishonouring themselves and thus giving up their human and personal rights. Civilians didn't fare well either. But there again, the Japanese perspective dictates that they are not much more than a nusance and well enough to kill them to make room for a nice Japanese family to move into their home.
Still I am at a loss. The brutality is simply that, brutality. They slaughtered entire cities and on a scale that would make an SS trooper cringe. I don't know where to place my thoughts on this one simply because while bushido give rules and conduct, the age of the samurai warrior pretty much died in the 1600's.

Gary,
You make some very intetresting points, all of which are very pertinent. Yes, by our standards the Japnaese were brutal, but as you rightly point out, they operated to the Bushido code of honour.  Also, Japanese troops had it drilled into them all the time, that their lives belonged to the Emporer and that is something that no Japanese soldier would ever take lightly.
I'd like to point out a couple of things though. The Samurai and Bushido code did not die out in the 1600's rather some 200 years later, actually 1836 to be precise. It's called 'The Meji Restoration' The politics of it are typically Japanese, but the upset of it is that Imperial forces wrested control from the Samurai warlords. The amurai, being true to thier code fought with thier traditional weapons against modern rifles and stuff. Rather predictably, the Samurai all died to a man, but inflicted terrible casualties on the Imperial troops.
As for the Bushido code, it has never died out at all. It still exists today.

Oh, if this sounds very biased to the Samurai, well it is. I find the entire culture of the Samurai totally awe inspiring and fasinating.  

[lancer]

And since the subject has been so obviously broached, let me say that I am confused by the philosophy, from both the 'hawks' and the 'doves', which says that if one opposes a war you therefore also oppose the troops. I was against the war in Viet Nam, and I am against the current conflict in Iraq, but I will never speak out against the people in the front lines who are simply doing their duty. One day there may be a war I agree with, and I certainly would expect them to be out there saving my sorry arse. I spent ten years with an infantry regiment in the Canadian Armed Forces Reserve, and although I never saw combat I can appreciate what it means. I have drank, caroused, and womanized with veterans from WWI onwards, Dieppe soldiers who still carried physical and emotional scars, Korean war participants who were serving there when I was born, and I feel honoured and privileged to have known each and every one of them. My thoughts are with those serving now, and I hope they come home soon and safely.

I raise a glass to them all!  

I agree wholeheartedly with you Ratty. On EVERYTHING you said. Hell, my family has a military heritage and I would NEVER dishonour that.  

[lancer]

Exactly.  At the same time as the Chinese "anger" over these schoolbooks come veiled threats of military action if Japan carries on exploring oil fields in disputed international waters.  So thats 2 free, democratic countries that China have threatened with military action in 2 months.  Way to go China.  And Chirac wants to sell arms to these people??  :dum:

First off, Chirac's typically French. A total ARSEHOLE. Secondly, I find it typical Chinese hypocrisy with these 'protests'. The Chinese are beginning to stir from thier slumber and I think that in the not too distant future they are going to be a MAJOR problem in the world. They are looking to be the next world superpower, and surrently they are doing it very covertly. All these western companies that invest there, the cheap labour; the technology transfers (Israel comes to mind), The Red Armies financial dealings. They happen to be one on the biggest players in the world financial markets today, albeit under different trading names. PLA world wide investments would'nt get much business now would it??   . As it stands now, the Chinese are the bully boys of that region, and they can be as no one can or weill stand up to them.  These are the people that would use the nuke without thinking of the consequences or not bothering about them.
And in the middle of all this, we as modellers almost wet ourselves with delight every time Trumpeter release some new kit. I know, I'm a hypocrite as well as I'll be buying them Wyvern when I can get my hands on it. Unless I get the Roden(t) one first.  

[Madoc]

Lancer & all,

The primary reason why it is so cost effective to "buy Chinese" right now is that the Chinese government has gone to some pretty extreme measures to peg their currency at an artificially low level.  This has done great things for their economic development, in the short term, but it's a policy that becomes increasingly self-destructive in the long term.

Eventually, the Chinese are going to have to "un-peg" their currency and let the market set its value.  This, as are all the other world's major currencies.  When this economic readjustment happens it will mean dire things for the China's economy in the short term.  That, in turn, will mean higher prices on such things as we cherish over here (i.e. the latest from Trumpeter, etc.,.) but it's an economic adjustment that's long over due.

One thing we've discussed about this here in the States is what such an adjustment will mean to such low-end mass market enterprises as WalMart.  Their entire business plan is based on having an ultra-cheap source of goods at hand so they can underprice their competition.  Once China's currency gets freed, then companies like WalMart will be taking it on the chin.

Madoc

[Hobbes]

Here's hoping for a democratic revolution in the (now laughably called) 'People's Republic' of China.  

[lancer]

Lancer & all,

The primary reason why it is so cost effective to "buy Chinese" right now is that the Chinese government has gone to some pretty extreme measures to peg their currency at an artificially low level.  This has done great things for their economic development, in the short term, but it's a policy that becomes increasingly self-destructive in the long term.

Eventually, the Chinese are going to have to "un-peg" their currency and let the market set its value.  This, as are all the other world's major currencies.  When this economic readjustment happens it will mean dire things for the China's economy in the short term.  That, in turn, will mean higher prices on such things as we cherish over here (i.e. the latest from Trumpeter, etc.,.) but it's an economic adjustment that's long over due.

One thing we've discussed about this here in the States is what such an adjustment will mean to such low-end mass market enterprises as WalMart.  Their entire business plan is based on having an ultra-cheap source of goods at hand so they can underprice their competition.  Once China's currency gets freed, then companies like WalMart will be taking it on the chin.

Madoc

Well Madoc, after reading about what Wal mart have done to a lot of communities over in the states and thier employment practices, I for one would love to see them take it on the chin.

[lancer]

Here's hoping for a democratic revolution in the (now laughably called) 'People's Republic' of China.

It'll never happen Hobbes, the communist old guard still rule with an iron fist over there.

[Ollie]

Madoc, that's what I read in a Economics exam at school.  Most of the Chinese banks could go bankrupt overnight if foreing capital is pulled.  That's a pretty powerful lever!

One day, they'll have to set the things straight and we'll get back our advantage over them : beer power!

 

[Captain Canada]

Chinese Mig 1.44s.........

[dragon]

Madoc, that's what I read in a Economics exam at school.  Most of the Chinese banks could go bankrupt overnight if foreing capital is pulled.  That's a pretty powerful lever!

One day, they'll have to set the things straight and we'll get back our advantage over them : beer power!

The Communist Chinese are in no danger of losing their capital.  They are setting up all sorts of schemes with governments whose leaders have a visceral hatred for democracies and capitalism.  One nation in particular has set up an oil deal (OPEC founding member in Latin America, President is Fidel's padawan) with them.  That and deals with other Axis of Evil nations sets up a very dangerous future for humanity.  Oil for weapons seems to speak louder than normal everyday cash these days.  Unfortunately most Americans and possibly Canadians will not find this out since the media is so "sanitized" these days.

Make dictators an Extinct Species!


By the way, can we finally declare this thread as officially hijacked?

[Captain Canada]

Leclercs in the Chinese Army....then they can blame the French when they run over protestors.........