Sopwith Camel of the Red Arrows display team - 1920

[Weaver]

Of course, you've made a rod (arrow?) for your own back now, since we simply must see how the Reds developed over the intervening years. 

Agreed! And what would be next? The S.E.5 served longer, into 1922, so that's a possibility. Or the AW Siskin, which entered service in 1923. If RAFF-35 feels overwhelmed by the task ahead, we could start a seperate thread for discussion, and do our own.

Well the Sopwith Snipe seems to have been a common replacement, but I'm not sure if there are any models.

My feelings for later are:

1920-1927/8ish - don't know
Bristol Bulldog
Gloster Gladiator (Spits and Hurricanes being in too short supply to spare for aerobatics)
Suspended during the war
Vampires
Hunters

After that, front-line fighters become too expensive to run, so the options are either:

1. Rejoin the real-life timeline with Gnats followed by Hawks

2. Re-write history so the RAF used different trainers. Some possibilities:

a. If the original plan for the Jaguar (i.e. mostly trainers) had been followed, then the Reds would have ended up flying those.

b. If the UK had bought US hardware more, they might have ended up in T-37s, T-38s or F-5Bs.

c. If the UK had been more enthusiastic about NBMR.1, then they might have ended up in G.91Ts or G.91Rs.
(I tried to build a Red Arrows G.91 once, but I cocked up the paint)

d. If the UK had been more Euro-minded, we might have joined the Alpha Jet program and the Reds would have flown them.

e. If the UK had focussed on a certain engine manufacturer's interests to the detriment of the airframe industry (perish the thought... ), the Reds might have found themselves flying Mb.326s followed by Mb.339s, with their Viper engines.

Well after a bit of reading, it looks like a reasonable early progression might be:

Sopwith Camel
Sopwith Snipe
Armstrong-Whitworth Siskin
Bristol Bulldog
Gloster Gladiator

In 1/72nd:
Pegasus (the UK one) did a limited-run injection kit of the Snipe (there's one on Ebay at the moment, which is what reminded me of this)
Eastern Express did a Snipe too
Matchbox did a Siskin (loads on Ebay)
Airfix did a Bristol Bulldog (ditto)

Surprising how many of the long-out-of-production Siskins and Bulldogs there are on Ebay. It's almost like people buy biplane kits but then never quite get around to building them, isn't it? 

[PR19_Kit]

The Siskin's a really nice kit, and it doesn't have much rigging either. a definite plus point.

[Mossie]

Fun little thing! Really like this. 

[Mossie]

Well after a bit of reading, it looks like a reasonable early progression might be:

Sopwith Camel
Sopwith Snipe
Armstrong-Whitworth Siskin
Bristol Bulldog
Gloster Gladiator

In 1/72nd:
Pegasus (the UK one) did a limited-run injection kit of the Snipe (there's one on Ebay at the moment, which is what reminded me of this)
Eastern Express did a Snipe too
Matchbox did a Siskin (loads on Ebay)
Airfix did a Bristol Bulldog (ditto)

Surprising how many of the long-out-of-production Siskins and Bulldogs there are on Ebay. It's almost like people buy biplane kits but then never quite get around to building them, isn't it? 

The Eastern Express kit was originally by Toko. I've got Toko's Sopwith Salamander, which is a nice kit for its time.

I'd throw in the Matchbox Hawker Fury in as a candidate too.

[Charlie_c67]

The Siskin's a really nice kit, and it doesn't have much rigging either. a definite plus point.

True, but the undercarriage is a pain in the backside. Definitely a five hand job!

[zenrat]

Airfix just repopped the Bulldog as a Vintage Classic.

I would be thinking more along trainer lines given the Reds Gnats and Hawks.  Avro 504, Balliol, Buckmaster, Harvard...

[Weaver]

Airfix just repopped the Bulldog as a Vintage Classic.

I would be thinking more along trainer lines given the Reds Gnats and Hawks.  Avro 504, Balliol, Buckmaster, Harvard...

I was assuming they'd fly the front-line fighter for as long as that's reasonably cheap. It starts to break down with the Spitfire and Hurricane, because they're all needed in front-line squadrons ASAP. After the war, they might have single-seat Vampires since they must have been about the same price as T.11s. Ditto Hunters, although that's the point where I think "questions would start to be asked". Even if they weren't though, Lightnings, and Phantoms are not exactly suitable formation aerobatic aircraft.

If we're going for trainers, the Miles Master would be a natural choice in the immediate post-war period, followed by the Jet Provost. If they had JPs, it'd be an interesting question whether they'd ever go over to the Gnat. After all many other top-notch display teams used jet basic trainers, such as the Magister or Mb.326, rather than advanced ones. They might switch to JP Mk.5s (Strikemasters) at some point, and then follow the rest of the RAF onto the Tucano.

That then begs a spin-off question: would we have sold more Strikemasters to export customers if the Reds had been flying them, and would we have sold fewer Hawks if they hadn't?

[PR19_Kit]

Even if they weren't though, Lightnings, and Phantoms are not exactly suitable formation aerobatic aircraft.

The Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels managed OK with their Phantoms, even if they needed half a county to make a turn.

[kitbasher]

Even if they weren't though, Lightnings, and Phantoms are not exactly suitable formation aerobatic aircraft.

The Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels managed OK with their Phantoms, even if they needed half a county to make a turn.

Yeah but their displays aren't the same in nature as the Arrows' display, though.

[stevehed]

Just had a look through my stash. Agree with all the suggestions so far but, for the masochistic Merlin produced the Hawker Woodcock and Gloster Grebe, both near the bottom of the to do pile, Pegasus issued a Gloster Gamecock, the Matchbox Fury has more recent competion from A Models, I think, and AZ offer the Gloster Gauntlet. A great idea which could be extended to other countries.

[Rheged]

Even if they weren't though, Lightnings, and Phantoms are not exactly suitable formation aerobatic aircraft.

The Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels managed OK with their Phantoms, even if they needed half a county to make a turn.

Yeah but their displays aren't the same in nature as the Arrows' display, though.

The Black Arrows, 111 squadron,  flew Hunter F6  (16 of them.)   The  Blue Diamonds (92 squadron) used  Hunters too .  Then there are the     E E Lightnings "The Tigers" of 74 Squadron and "The Firebirds" of 56 Squadron.

[Weaver]

Even if they weren't though, Lightnings, and Phantoms are not exactly suitable formation aerobatic aircraft.

The Thunderbirds and the Blue Angels managed OK with their Phantoms, even if they needed half a county to make a turn.

Well exactly: can you imagine the radius of the noise complaints around a typical British air show?

Anyway, the real show-stopper is cost: the UK would have to be WAY richer to afford a dozen extra Phantoms just for show.

[Charlie_c67]

Airfix just repopped the Bulldog as a Vintage Classic.

I would be thinking more along trainer lines given the Reds Gnats and Hawks.  Avro 504, Balliol, Buckmaster, Harvard...

Or aircraft that've been relegated from front line duty? Would allow late war Hurricanes, Canberra's, Botha's.... Ok, maybe not the last one.

[PR19_Kit]

Well exactly: can you imagine the radius of the noise complaints around a typical British air show?

Oh yes, I saw both teams fly in the UK in the 70s, and the one thing that stood out was that they were LOUD!

But of course we all cheered and clapped, who cared about those who lived nearby, they must have known they were near an airfield when they bought their houses. 

[zenrat]

...I saw both teams fly in the UK in the 70s, and the one thing that stood out was that they were LOUD!...

Which has me thinking of the Fairey factory display team.  Ten Rotodynes in formation - The Pink Fairy's...