Old designs with modern engines

[Diamondback]

Since when is a Genie a limitation?

If you care about plane and crew coming back from the mission...

[chrisonord]

Seen this on Facebook, and thought it was sort of fitting for this thread. Avro Lincoln fitted with two Armstrong Sideley Python turbo prop engines.  The Lincoln is in Australia.

[zenrat]

Before anyone asks, that's a GAF Pika in front of it.

The Pika was a manually controlled prototype version of the GAF Jindivik radio controlled target drone. Two were built as proof of concept to test the aerodynamics, engine and radio control systems.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GAF_Jindivik

[Rheged]

Thanks for the clarification, Fred.  I'd guessed that it might be a manned Jindevik, but you confirmed this before I got a chance to ask.

[Weaver]

The J79 was much shorter than the J57 so it sticking way out the back like that is a bit
puzzling. The JT3C-7, non-afterburning civil J57, is 155" long, the J57-P-55 is 252" long,
so 8' of the difference is the afterburner. The J79-GE-17 is 208" long, between the two,
so either it was mounted farther aft or GE stuck a really long afterburner on the engines
when they mounted them in the airframe.

They may have been mounted farther back to preserve CG location.  In a way it's too bad USAF didn't actually order J79-powered F-101s, with the right equipment fit they could have been comparable to the F-4 in many respects.  Oh wait, Mac the Knife would have had none of that!  Still, I can't help but wonder about an F-101 with twin J79s and a combination of AIM-9s and AIM-7s.  Could probably have kept a couple of the guns too, although maneuverability may have been worse than even the F-4 so dogfighting would likely not be a great idea.

If I remember correctly the F-101 had a tendency to pitch up violently with little warning that killed a number of experienced pilots. Perhaps the two seaters didn't suffer this as badly as I haven't heard of it being a problem for the CAF. That could be one reason for going straight to the F-4.

Here's my version of an upgraded Voodoo; https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=39666.msg685679#msg685679

Now the J-79 in the Demon would be a great upgrade!

IIRC (which I may not) wasn't the F-101 fitted with an early form of fly-by-wire pitch stabilising system to mitigate that problem?

The F-101 had a built-in ability to replace the ammo tanks with an extra fuel tank for ferry purposes and this was done in service on a number of occasions. The main problem with a multi-role F-101 would be pylons. It only had three close together under the fuselage and none under the very narrow-chord wings. Even if the wings are strong enough to mount a couple of low-rated outboard pylons (which I doubt), that's still all you get because the undercarriage bays take up a big chunk of the lower surface. I suppose you could fit a single-seater with the rotating missile door from the F-101B, but that then costs you the guns and limits you to Falcons and Genies: the door's too short for Sidewinders or Sparrows.

Since when is a Genie a limitation?

It'd be a limitation in Vietnam, where you weren't allowed to use it...

[NARSES2]

2nd time of asking in a couple of weeks, but why do I have to constantly read quote after inserted quote ? Can't people simply edit posts ? 

[Weaver]

2nd time of asking in a couple of weeks, but why do I have to constantly read quote after inserted quote ? Can't people simply edit posts ? 

Well on the upside, it means you have the whole conversation in one post rather than having to scroll back through the thread to follow it...

[Weaver]

It looks like the J-79-engined Voodoo had various cooling scoops on the extended jet pipes. That may chime with the fact that IAI had to provide significantly more cooling scoops (including the distictive fin-root one) when shoe-horning the J-79 into the Mirage airframe to create the Kfir. Similar mods may have been neccessary to a J-79-engined F-3H Demon.

[Weaver]

Not exactly an "old" design but what about a Tornado F.4 with EJ200s and Meteor BVRAAMs, adopted as an expedient measure when the Eurofighter programme collapsed? The EJ200s would give it much better high-altitude performance, which is where it was always weakest, and the Meteors could go on F-14 Phoenix-style conformal pallets, since they're carried at the opposite corner to their ramjet intakes.

[Old Wombat]

Since when is a Genie a limitation?

It'd be a limitation in Vietnam, where you weren't allowed to use it...

Easy fix - Change the RoE's!     

[Weaver]

Something I've long pondered is a "Super Strikemaster", i.e. how would you do to the JP.5 what Cessna did to the T-37 to make the A-37B? The A-37B got it's relatively huge weapons load by having twice the installed power of a T-37, so how would you do that to a Viper-engined Jet Provost? Some possibilities:

Replace the single Viper with an Orpheus or an Adour. The Strikmeaster has a rather wide and empty engine bay due to it's side-by-side seating, so you could probably get a bigger engine in, compensating for the weight by adding some armour to the cockpit, perhaps. Modelling-wise, Hawk intakes are almost exactly the same shape as JP ones and sized for the Adour, so you just stick some on and PSR them in. The jet nozzle would need to be bigger though. You could kipper the JP's rear fuselage to make it wider, but deeper will probably involve PSR and re-mounting the fin.

Twin engines in the fuselage, either 2 x Vipers or 2 x J-85s. This would involve the same intake mods as above, but you fit the tail fairing from a Matchbox G-91Y on the back, and then do a LOT of PSR to blend the intakes and exhaust together. I'd be inclided to stick long lengths of Evergreen between the intakes and the tail fairing and then PSR on top of that.

Twin engines in pods. Stick a Prop-Provost back end onto a Strikemaster front end, cut the intakes off the latter and PSR them over, then add two engine pods from wherever (1/144th scale A-10?) on the upper fuselage corners over the wings. Claim in the backstory that the A-10 was inspired by this rather than the other way around...    

[Spino]

If I remember correctly the F-101 had a tendency to pitch up violently with little warning that killed a number of experienced pilots. Perhaps the two seaters didn't suffer this as badly as I haven't heard of it being a problem for the CAF. That could be one reason for going straight to the F-4.

Here's my version of an upgraded Voodoo; https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=39666.msg685679#msg685679

Now the J-79 in the Demon would be a great upgrade!

That upgraded Voodoo looks the part!  Nicely done indeed!

The F-101's pitch-up tendency probably came from the T-tail configuration.  At certain angles of attack the tailplanes can get blanked by the wings, causing complete loss of pitch authority.  It's an issue that the C-5 also suffered from, to the point that it had to have an automatic stick pusher installed to limit angle of attack and prevent an unrecoverable stall.  The two-seat Voodoos probably weren't being thrown around as much as the single-seaters were, given that they were heavy interceptors, so if they suffered fewer issues related to pitch-up, it may just have been because they weren't being flown in a manner that involved high AoA.  That's just speculation on my part, all except for the T-tail issue.  I do know that T-tail configured airplanes tend to have pitch-up issues.

Engine cooling may have been an issue for the Demon if they fitted the J79 to it, much like it was for the Kifir, but even that probably could have been overcome.  I'd be more worried about the intake geometry holding the engine back.  Assuming it didn't hold it back much though, it would be a great upgrade for the F3H.

[PR19_Kit]

Not exactly an "old" design but what about a Tornado F.4 with EJ200s and Meteor BVRAAMs, adopted as an expedient measure when the Eurofighter programme collapsed? The EJ200s would give it much better high-altitude performance, which is where it was always weakest, and the Meteors could go on F-14 Phoenix-style conformal pallets, since they're carried at the opposite corner to their ramjet intakes.

I'm doing, I'm doing it! My Tornado F6 has just that sort of power, AND base burning as well! 

[PR19_Kit]

Seen this on Facebook, and thought it was sort of fitting for this thread. Avro Lincoln fitted with two Armstrong Sideley Python turbo prop engines.  The Lincoln is in Australia.

Why can't I 'quote' the pic as well?

I've said many times that the answer to more prop power is 'Fit a Python!' or in this case two of them. I'm not sure that poor Linc would even need the Merlins at all! 

[Diamondback]

Easy fix - Change the RoE's!     

When you have a meddlesome, incompetent bag of dogcrap like LBJ who insists on PERSONALLY getting on the radio to individual B-52 tail gunners and telling 'em "y'all can't shoot back no matter what that MiG's about to shove up your arse"?