French tanks in British service, Battle of France, 1941

[Raptor341]

Watching this one. Whatif France 1940-1941 + is definitely an under explored for how realistic a possibility it was.

[Jakko]

Some BEF Matilda II were fitted with rear skids

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. (The tank in the photo is also one with raised suspension for use in France, BTW.) Hmm ... not sure yet what I'll do now with the trench skid. Might just fit it, because it will clearly be useful to fight entrenched Germans.

Whatif France 1940-1941 + is definitely an under explored for how realistic a possibility it was.

Agreed, and IMHO more interesting than the far less plausible "Wehrmacht 1946"

[zenrat]

I've often pondered the possibility of the German's being halted in 1940, so will be watching with interest 

The basic premise here is that the Germans did attack like the French and British expected — basically: not through the Ardennes — and so were halted more or less according to the Allied plans, which resulted in the war becoming more static and "breakthrough" tanks like the B1 and Churchill being not just useful but necessary.

One of the interesting possibilities that arises from this scenario is what does Italy do ? Side with Germany, side with the Allies (as was a possibility) or stay neutral ?

That H-39 looks nice 

IIRC Mussolini waited until France fell before declaring war.  So if there was a stalemate I think he would have procrastinated some more.  Neutral like Spain would throw up some interesting possibilities.

[NARSES2]

IIRC Mussolini waited until France fell before declaring war.  So if there was a stalemate I think he would have procrastinated some more.  Neutral like Spain would throw up some interesting possibilities.

Mussolini declared war on June 10th, France signed an armistice on June 22nd and it became effective on the 25th. So yes for all intents and purposes he waited until the end was obvious and only then declared war, and invaded the south of France (where he was repulsed) in order to get his share of the spoils.

Now I have read that Britain and France were prepared to offer him some colonial concessions in order to get him to join the Allies, but agree with you that in this scenario he's more likely to have stayed neutral.

[Old Wombat]

IIRC Mussolini waited until France fell before declaring war.  So if there was a stalemate I think he would have procrastinated some more.  Neutral like Spain would throw up some interesting possibilities.

Mussolini declared war on June 10th, France signed an armistice on June 22nd and it became effective on the 25th. So yes for all intents and purposes he waited until the end was obvious and only then declared war, and invaded the south of France (where he was repulsed) in order to get his share of the spoils.

Now I have read that Britain and France were prepared to offer him some colonial concessions in order to get him to join the Allies, but agree with you that in this scenario he's more likely to have stayed neutral.

Which would have meant no Greece, no North Africa (which were both started by the Italians), & an open Med for the British & French, plus (with no Mers-el-Kébir) an intact Marine nationale & a lot more ships in the water for the Kriegsmarine to worry about.

[Jakko]

Which all could also have been a reason for Hitler to want to pressure and/or entice Mussolini into joining his side of the war. The question, then, is what could he plausibly have used to do that?


Anyway, a British tank won't have had a French machine gun, but does a Besa fit in the H39's gun shield?

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It looks like it could fit more or less as the photo shows (but next to the gun, of course ), with the forward end of the barrel sticking out beyond the armour that has been made to protect the barrel of the French MAC 1931. Except I don't think a Besa would fit inside that, because it's a pretty wide weapon with large protective plates alongside the barrel at the front of the receiver (missing on the gun in the photo). On British tanks, the Besa was normally mounted in a kind of "trough" that is open at the top, I assume for better cooling. Some measuring, though, proved that such a trough can be fitted here, too:

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I first cut away the upper, side and front parts of the French "barrel guard". The barrel is a piece of plastic rod left over from a kit, with a little block of plastic glued underneath for the protective plates to be stuck onto, which were made from plastic strip. I next added some thin plastic card and putty on the left, to close the gap towards the 37 mm gun barrel, then glued the barrel in place, made the right-hand side from 0.75 mm and the front from 1 mm plastic card. The glue on this now has to dry before I can scrape and putty it all a bit so it will look more like a single-piece casting with the rest of the gun shield.

Only thing is that this has made the shield here wider and taller than the original, which prevents it from fitting into the turret. This, I solved by filing out the opening in the front plate to the right and up until the gun fits and can elevate as it should. You can't really tell this from the photo because I forgot to take a "before" picture, but if you compare it to pictures of a non-converted model, it should be obvious

[frank2056]

This is really a great build thread! You weren't kidding - the new Tamiya H39 looks like a great kit; I'll have to get one!

Modelstories had a series of what-if articles called France 1941

[Jakko]

Heh — that plane was developed by a shipyard about 10 km from where I live, when they were trying to expand into aircraft production in the 1930s. Never expected someone in France to have even heard of it

[PR19_Kit]

Heh — that plane was developed by a shipyard about 10 km from where I live, when they were trying to expand into aircraft production in the 1930s. Never expected someone in France to have even heard of it

And RS did a kit of it too? Amazing, I'd like to get hold of one of them! 

[NARSES2]

Which would have meant no Greece, no North Africa (which were both started by the Italians), & an open Med for the British & French, plus (with no Mers-el-Kébir) an intact Marine nationale & a lot more ships in the water for the Kriegsmarine to worry about.

Precisely

Which all could also have been a reason for Hitler to want to pressure and/or entice Mussolini into joining his side of the war. The question, then, is what could he plausibly have used to do that?

That is something to ponder on. Perhaps he could offer him a joint invasion of Yugoslavia once France and Britain had been defeated ? Italy had conquered Albania in 1939, so there was a base from which to launch an invasion. After the defeat of Yugoslavia Italy then gets the bulk of the country, Germany gets the area nearest Austria ? Maybe the assault is a combined Italian/German/Hungarian/Romanian/Bulgarian one ? Afer all they all have borders with it.

Anyway as I say something to ponder whilst watching this brilliant build   

[NARSES2]

And RS did a kit of it too? Amazing, I'd like to get hold of one of them! 

Indeed and I've built it 

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[jcf]

IIRC Mussolini waited until France fell before declaring war.  So if there was a stalemate I think he would have procrastinated some more.  Neutral like Spain would throw up some interesting possibilities.

Mussolini declared war on June 10th, France signed an armistice on June 22nd and it became effective on the 25th. So yes for all intents and purposes he waited until the end was obvious and only then declared war, and invaded the south of France (where he was repulsed) in order to get his share of the spoils.

Now I have read that Britain and France were prepared to offer him some colonial concessions in order to get him to join the Allies, but agree with you that in this scenario he's more likely to have stayed neutral.

Which would have meant no Greece, no North Africa (which were both started by the Italians), & an open Med for the British & French, plus (with no Mers-el-Kébir) an intact Marine nationale & a lot more ships in the water for the Kriegsmarine to worry about.

Taking the Balkans, Eastern Mediterranean, Egypt and the Suez Canal, especially the last, was always on Hitler and the Wehrmacht's list. Mussolini's actions moved up the schedule.

[jcf]

And RS did a kit of it too? Amazing, I'd like to get hold of one of them! 

Indeed and I've built it 

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Considered to be the mostly likely source of the infamous Focke-Wulf Fw 198.
 
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From the 1943 Aeronautics Aircraft Spotter's Handbook, 2nd Ed, Copyright National Aeronautics
Council, Inc., New York, New York.

[frank2056]

And RS did a kit of it too? Amazing, I'd like to get hold of one of them! 

Indeed and I've built it 

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Chris - do you have a build thread here? I have it in my stash. JC Carbonel says it was an easy build, but that canopy is scary looking (from a build standpoint)

[NARSES2]

Chris - do you have a build thread here? I have it in my stash. JC Carbonel says it was an easy build, but that canopy is scary looking (from a build standpoint)

I've had a look Frank and apparently I haven't. However from memory it wasn't difficult at all, if it had of been I'd certainly have remembered.