Another B-36 Peacemaker - delivered early?

[Diamondback]

So, after many years away I've been dragged kicking and screaming back into the game by an old wargaming buddy who wants a build to square an old favor - this guy is a big fan of "Luft46/Weird War II" type scenarios.

The scenario: "Operation Fast Forward" - a Manhattan Project-level effort to complete the first B-36 Peacemaker and have it operational in time to deliver Hitler a special "birthday present" from the United States on April 20, 1945. Due to visibility issues noticed by some forward thinker on the mockups, the XB with its airliner cockpit is set aside and the YB, 42-13571 is selected to fast-forward with the inverted-bowl cockpit we know from history. In parallel, FICON is being fast-forwarded with the XP-84 prototype.

The build: Atlantis 1/184, "close enough" for Wings of Glory 1/200.

Questions:
1. How much of the final B-36B fit-out would be available at this point? Are the remote 20mm turrets going to be available before Show Time, or is the Magnesium Overcast going to be solely dependent on speed and altitude for her defense? (I'm on the working assumption that IF the guns are available, bombing from B-17/B-24 altitude will be preferred for greater accuracy, but if not the tactics will be Shock & Awe rattling windows in Berlin while bombs rain out of nowhere from this barely visible speck in the sky at 40,000'.)
2. Based on what we know of the bomb bay structures and the known dimensions of WWII ordnance, what kind of loadouts can we figure on? A Tallboy would sure be an eye opener and a Crowd Pleaser, but seems like it would only be militarily useful for busting the Fuhrerbunker--and this mission needs to be more than just Psychological Warfare. (Or is "turn Der Fuehrer and his inner circle into subatomic particles in the most expensive assassination in the history of the world" enough to be worthwhile in its own right from an Allied War Planning perspective, and is it worth tipping our hand to Stalin about our new wonder-weapon?)

Alternate scenario: the McDonnell Goblin is also fast-forwarded, with the prototypes available and 571 test-deployed as a "USAAF Answer to Akron/Macon" escorting a high-priority bomber package. We have one YB-36 and two XP-85s available, with the big beast acting as a "flying FARP" to keep the two parasites fueled and armed. (Or same with the single XP-84 instead of the Goblins.)

Assumption, we are not loading Little Boy or Fat Man due to compartmentalization and secrecy requirements. Neither project knows of the other's existence. Build plan is that I'm going to finish mine as 571 in NMF as she rolled out, his is going to be OD over Neutral Gray with no tail number.

And on a practical side, any suggestions to motorize this thing? I know I need motors about the size of a cigarette filter, and I'm thinking no more than about 180rpm for safety reasons. Thinking batteries and motor in the base with an umbilical cable and quick-release plug up to a wiring harness in the plane.

[Wardukw]

OK.  Answer N01...yep 184 is extremely close to 200 ..fact there's damn near no difference worth worrying about.
Powering this will be fun ....you can get micro sized electric motors but you'll going to have gun finding em and some of the prices will make your butt pucker .
But there's another route to..tiny children's RC cars ..they use a super small electric motor ..find the cheapest one you can and rip it to bits ..then you'll get a clear idea about the motors size 😉
They also run with a very low voltage aswell so speed control should be good .

Now to the bang bangs ...I would say yes to the 20mm cannons in remote turrets as the B-29 was already using the same idea but with .50cals instead ..also at the time the Luffwaffe would have had a right bugger of a time getting close to anything flying at 40k up ...seeing em too would have been interesting 🤔.
Load outs are a thing ...a Tallboy would work but a Grandslam would make one hell of an impression..shock and ..well shock more than anything and the damage would be massive massive...earthquake bombs tend to do that .
It would probably do more damage than a full load of 1000 pounders going to work too ..

That'll get ya started 

[Diamondback]

Funny thing... my buddy was inspired by a mutual friend who's ALREADY built and deployed the Atlantis B-36 in SAC D-model configuration on his gaming table. Build notes: I'm leaving off the jet engines, since those weren't available til Boeing started the B-47 program. (In fact, the B-36 outrigger nacelles are a straight lift from B-47 other than the landing gear removed and doors wired shut - Boeing actually let USAF add enough nacelles for the entire B-36 fleet into the Bell subcontract on them for B-47 at cost not even the usual "plus 10%".)

If we have one of these things made available to VIII Bomber Command, what other Operational Test missions might we consider plausible for clubbing Germany over the head with the new Big Stick? Or, as noted previously, due to Stalin being clearly "the next problem on the gameboard" would the US even WANT to reveal the existence of an Intercontinental Superbomber program that early?

Next question... I can get an F-84G in 1/200, how much needs rework to backdate it into the XP?

[Rick Lowe]

There's this 3D printable -B version:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:6177541

Though in 1/200-ish, it might be easier to scratchbuild it; it's only about a 2.2" wingspan in that scale and it's a simple enough shape.
Basing it on a 1/48 or 1/72 Mk.84 would be a good place to start.

HTH

[Wardukw]

Funny thing... my buddy was inspired by a mutual friend who's ALREADY built and deployed the Atlantis B-36 in SAC D-model configuration on his gaming table. Build notes: I'm leaving off the jet engines, since those weren't available til Boeing started the B-47 program. (In fact, the B-36 outrigger nacelles are a straight lift from B-47 other than the landing gear removed and doors wired shut - Boeing actually let USAF add enough nacelles for the entire B-36 fleet into the Bell subcontract on them for B-47 at cost not even the usual "plus 10%".)

If we have one of these things made available to VIII Bomber Command, what other Operational Test missions might we consider plausible for clubbing Germany over the head with the new Big Stick? Or, as noted previously, due to Stalin being clearly "the next problem on the gameboard" would the US even WANT to reveal the existence of an Intercontinental Superbomber program that early?

Next question... I can get an F-84G in 1/200, how much needs rework to backdate it into the XP?

Well the B-36 is a bloody big chunk of metal and trying to hide it's existence would be impossible as the ruskies had spies already in the US from the early stages of the war ...and trying to Area 51 it back then again would not an easy thing either ..like that old say ..loose lips and all that .
If ya did by some massive stroke of luck hide it from the kiddies from behind the soon to be iron dish towel flying it max altitude on all missions would keep it scthum for a wee while .

As for the figther...no fecking idea 😄

[Diamondback]

There's this 3D printable -B version:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:6177541

Though in 1/200-ish, it might be easier to scratchbuild it; it's only about a 2.2" wingspan in that scale and it's a simple enough shape.
Basing it on a 1/48 or 1/72 Mk.84 would be a good place to start.

HTH

Thanks, Rick. I was thinking of this -E as a startpoint, but I don't know the Groundhog's evolution well enough.
https://xpforge.com/products/republic-f-84e-thunderjet-other-nations-fighting-vehicles-28mm-scale-bolt-action-wargame3d?variant=49964816204051
 Found a few photos of the XP and the biggest visible backdate would be bare tips rather than tanks, but there's no way it's making it to the party beause it wasn't even ORDERED til 1945 fiscal year - and if it's off the table so are the ugly little freaks from McDonnell.

[PR19_Kit]

Found a few photos of the XP and the biggest visible backdate would be bare tips rather than tanks, but there's no way it's making it to the party beause it wasn't even ORDERED til 1945 fiscal year - and if it's off the table so are the ugly little freaks from McDonnell.

But this is WhiffWorld, you can make your own history.................. 

[Diamondback]

That's true, Kit--but in this case I'm not making the rules just playing by them, no different than if someone was paying you to build them a model.

We're thinking in the theoretical timeline 570, the XB, is still built with the original cockpit, but more as a competitive fly-off to see how much capability difference the "cheaper and easier" really costs.

[Diamondback]

Or as an alternate: Could you get enough of an F-80 into a B-36 bomb bay in midair to refuel, rearm and maybe swap pilots while underway?

[jcf]

If you're moving up the timescale the 43,800lb T-12 instead of Grand Slam.
The B-36 could carry one Grand Slam and one T-12 or three Grand Slam or
four Tallboy. Have the four Tallboys be the TARZON (TAllboy Range and AZimuth ONly)
guided version and you could really give someone a bad day. Of course the max
loads depend on the fuel load and configuration. The T-12 was only carried in
the combined bays 3 and 4, aft of the wing centre box, 3-4 could also hold two
Grand Slam. Forward bays 1 and 2, when combined, could hold one Grand Slam
or two Tallboy.
You could have a mixed force of FICON and bomb equipped aircraft, and others with
heavy stuff. The T-12 and Grand Slam would do massive damage to the city being
dropped from their intended design altitude. They would under those conditions
create caverns under the city streets, which was part of Wallis's intent when he
designed the bombs. They'd not only cause localized earthquakes, the buildings and
streets would collapse into the caverns. While Tallboy and Grand Slam were used against
reinforced structures, it's not what they were designed for, but as the Lancaster couldn't
fly high enough to get the best out of the bombs, they used them as well as they were
able to. Also with either Grand Slam or the T-12 dropped from 40,000 ft you wouldn't
need to "hit" the Fuhrer-bunker, simply being close by would do the job because of
the shockwave propagating through the ground. 

TARZON
You cannot view this attachment.

[Diamondback]

Another question, since I fully expect to see some Mission Creep and being asked to write game scenarios because that's how this guy rolls... what targets were LEFT in April 1945 Germany that would be WORTH a B-36 strike, and if you're the mission planner and only get the one bird how would you plan the mission for maximum gain in Combat Test on exploring "what can we do with our new toy"? Maybe parachute some jumbo-size supply-pallet drops for Patton or Bradley?

I would assume we will never see "official" Me262s, Me163s or Ba349s hit the table... what kinds of scenarios can we see that might bring the big bird down into Fw190 Dora engagement envelope? Fly above anyone else's reach and drop a minute-of-mile citybuster is how the real VIII Bomber Command would have a dream mission go, but it's not exactly a challenge for the American player on the game table, and the German player asks himself "why even bother playing".

Or another alternate.... what if MacArthur gets use of the YB-36 instead of the B-32 Dominator trials unit as his consolation prize for Arnold hogging the B-29s? What did Japan have that would be worth smacking around with the USAAF's giant new beatstick? Hmmm... I know that up til the P-61 a lot of fighters had trouble getting up to the max speed and altitude of a G4M Betty in early-war, so maybe trial the YB as a "flying battleship" hunting Ohka launchers from even farther up?

[Rick Lowe]

Arc Lite... 

[Diamondback]

Could do that, Rick - remember, though, AL meant at least SIX B-52s, two cells of three with a pause between. I was considering sending a message to Stalin by doing a "Tactical TARZON" danger-close just behind the German line on the worst of the Eastern Front, kind of a "you see what we did to that army right in front of you with one plane and one bomb, we can just as easily do it to you too."

[sandiego89]

I have thought through this very scenario for my builds, I was very excited when the old Atlantis kit was re-released and pre-ordered two sign unseen, but was a bit disappointed with the "toy" nature of the kit, with poor detail and the tiny size of the kit.  I thought even the B-36 would be large in 1/184, but it is not.  Guess I should have not been surprised it being an inexpensive 1950's, toy type mold. 

Some thoughts. 

Yes on remote turrets, but I would also go with the B-29 set up.  The large 20mm turrets on the mockup would have taken years of development I bet. Either would be fairly Easy to scratch up on the Atlantis kit, or ignore entirely if you are going for the retracted look. 

For a rushed completion, you might want to consider the split tail (b-24 style) of the early design and the mockup of the B-36. It was almost built that way. Would take some scratch building. 

As for ordinance the Grand Slam/Tall boy is the most interesting, but a standard load of conventional bombs (lots of them!) is more realistic. 

Altitude would be the best defense in your scenario.  Me-163 might have a chance for a brief intercept. 

Bombing accuracy would be atrocious from 40,000 feet.  The jet stream was poorly understood in 1944/1945.  The B-29s were the ones that really found this out over Japan.  No pinpoint accuracy whatsoever.  More of a carpet bomber.   

If you are showing a bomb load, the Grand Slam/Tall Boys would be the most interesting in a scratched up bomb bay, a conventional bomb load would look very tiny and insignificant in the Atlantis kit. You might loose your eyesight building about 80 mk 82's!   

I do like the Pacific theatre options. 

As for a FICON I have thought this through extensively and done some mocking up for a Korea scenario I have in mind.  I would say P-80 or F-84 is more realistic for 1945.  F-85 just too audacious without some real bending of timeline.  Both would fit just fine if a fold was built into the horizontal stabilizers or placing them lower. For simplicity your scenario could employ launch only, and the fighters recover to a friendly base in re-occupied France or Belgium. The fighters have not expended any fuel in the climb and cruise, and would have enough fuel for launch, 10 minutes of combat and return to a friendly base. 

Here are some pics of my 1/72 B-36 and 1/72 P-80 and F-84 for a FICON reference.  The bomb bay is scratched with evergreen rod to replicate the lattice construction of the B-36. 

You can also see the unbuilt 1/181 Atlantis for comparison.    One picture shows the unbuilt Atlantis 1/181 kit on top of the built 1/72 B-36. and another picture shows the Atlantis fuselage next to the B-36.  It is tiny. 

The Atlantis would be OK for a wargaming or desk top type kit.  But the tiny size and lack of detail will give you a basic kit.  No landing gear in the kit. 

Go for it! 

Unbuilt 1/181 next to 1/72











unfinished F-84 test fit

[PR19_Kit]

The RW RF-84Ks had anhedral tailplanes and their GRB-36 carriers had cut outs in the aft bomb doors to sort out the tailplane problem.