Author Topic: British aircraft that the American military should have bought  (Read 1174 times)

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Offline zenrat

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2020, 01:38:54 am »
In short, you're asking which Brit. aircraft programs should have been underwritten
by the US taxpayer.
The answer is none.  :wacko:

Sometimes I think we need a troll icon, posts like that really belong on twitter or facebook. You don't work for a Russian e-propaganda agency do you?

But hey, let's just assume this is a What-If forum and international trade is (mindboggling thought for some, though it seems) actually permissible in whiffland.

I think that is a trifle excessive.  Jon is not trolling but is pointing out facts and expressing an opinion.

Then there's the Fairey Rotodyne,  I'm sure that the Americans would have developed this further. Possibly removing the jet rotor pods and perhaps fitting new engines. Maybe a name change along the way,  but this would have seen service with the Air Force,  Navy,  Marines and the Army,  even the being part of the Presidents' fleet.

The "Jet Rotor Pods" are all that power the 'dynes rotor.  Removing them would result in a rather large Autogiro.
Fred

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My name is Commander William Riker.  Take me to your women.

Offline steelpillow

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2020, 02:41:40 am »
In short, you're asking which Brit. aircraft programs should have been underwritten
by the US taxpayer.
The answer is none.  :wacko:

Sometimes I think we need a troll icon, posts like that really belong on twitter or facebook. You don't work for a Russian e-propaganda agency do you?

But hey, let's just assume this is a What-If forum and international trade is (mindboggling thought for some, though it seems) actually permissible in whiffland.

I think that is a trifle excessive.  Jon is not trolling but is pointing out facts and expressing an opinion.

Jon added a wacko icon to indicate that he posted in controversial jest. My remark about Russian interference was of course 110% serious, I can only conclude that you are his handler. Note icon --> :wacko:

But if you want "facts" then all trade involves the purchasing taxpayers funding the vendor. We should ban all international trade. This thread is subversive politico-miltary propaganda and must be immediately airbrushed from history (but please, not until after the US buys Boris's next spaceplane).
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Offline zenrat

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2020, 02:55:46 am »
Sorry mate, I only handle myself.
 :o

Fred

Another ill conceived, lazily thought out, crudely executed and badly painted piece of half arsed what-if modelling muppetry from zenrat industries.

My name is Commander William Riker.  Take me to your women.

Offline NARSES2

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2020, 02:57:37 am »
Sorry mate, I only handle myself.
 :o

What ever you do in the privacy of your own home  :angel:

Seriously lads, this thread could easily and unintentionally spark a slight disagreement, so lets be careful...eh ?

Chris
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Offline Weaver

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2020, 03:46:02 am »
Quote
The EH-101 Merlin was actually selected as the new presidential helicopter 'Marine 1' but the order was cancelled, ostensibly to save money, but NBH may have fed into the decision too. If it had been adopted and proved good, you could credibly have seen it in wider US service.

Nope, it was all about money, the program got unbelievably out of control because of an insane
"we gotta have this, oh and this, oooh that looks yummy etc." requirements creep development
process. Even when internal audits, and outside oversight like GAO, were pointing out how
financially ridiculous it was getting and being explicit about program mismanagement, they just
kept going.

NBH doesn't fly in this case as the heavily redesigned AW101/US101 had a 65% US work-share,
the legislators from the states that would have had the work, from both sides of the aisle, were
highly pissed-off about the cancelation.

However if I remember correctly, SOME of the "gotta have this, gotta have that" was driven by the idea that "the Pursident's safety don't depend on no forrin' stuff", so it was, in effect, a different kind of NBH, i.e. "Not Built Here = inferior/untrustworthy", rather than "Not Built Here = less 'murrican jobs".

And yes, all the  :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:;)
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2020, 03:51:58 am »
Of course it's just fine for the Brit taxpayer to underwrite/add profit to US projects, viz F-35, P-8 etc...…………….
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

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Offline McColm

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2020, 04:05:24 am »
If the Americans hadn't tried building their own SST then Concorde would of had a few more airliners operating them.

Offline steelpillow

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2020, 04:31:09 am »
If the Americans hadn't tried building their own SST then Concorde would of had a few more airliners operating them.

Back on military topic, I seem to recall that some kind of reconnaissance/ELINT/C2 Concorde was mooted at one point. That could look really cool with a little SLAR ridge along its belly and USAF livery. Cheaper than an SR-71 for the less dangerous overflights, too.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2020, 04:34:39 am by steelpillow »
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Offline Weaver

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2020, 04:34:51 am »
But if you want "facts" then all trade involves the purchasing taxpayers funding the vendor. We should ban all international trade. This thread is subversive politico-miltary propaganda and must be immediately airbrushed from history (but please, not until after the US buys Boris's next spaceplane).

It isn't always as simple as that.

1. In the 1950s and 1960s, the US ran a scheme called Mutual Weapons Development Fund (MWDF) which actually subsidised the development of national weapon-systems by favored allies. Off the top of my head, Hunter, Buccaneer and Harrier all benefitted from this US money, and the Harrier in particular wouldn't exist without it.

2. The US ran another scheme in the same timeframe called Offshore Procurement, in which sales of non-US weapons to US allies were subsidised by the US in order to build up the strength of both the operating and the manufacturing countries. For instance, the entire purchase of Hunters by the Netherlands and Belgium was paid for by Offshore Procurement.

3. Even when the US didn't directly fund the manufacture or procurement of non-US aircraft, it was still pouring general funding into Europe hand-over-fist during this period, so the availability of US money to fund, say, civilian infrastructure rebuilding, allowed the European governments to spend money on weapons development & procurement.

So, in effect, the American taxpayer DID 'buy' a lot of the aircraft in question, they just never went into service with the US forces.
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Offline sandiego89

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2020, 06:00:39 am »
Hmmm, I'll chime in on a few mentioned above.

- Argosy. No.  The C-130 was already in service, and likely better at everything. 
- Buccaneer.  Better looking and a bit faster than the A-6, but the Intruder stacks up pretty well in everything else, and was good at night/poor weather and in later in service got even better avionics. The Buccaneer, with better small deck performance, would have been well suited for the Essex class carriers still in US service in the 60's and 70's     
- Belfast. No.  The US had the C-141, C-133 and C-130 before the C-5. Good mix on tactical and strategic lift and the C-133 was similar to the Belfast (except crashed a lot more) 
- Lynx was actually proposed
- I agree that a few interesting V/STOL projects had some promise.
- Concorde did attract interest in US military and civil applications.     
 
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2020, 08:59:22 am »
There was always the Canberra, which DID get bought and licence built in the US of course.  :thumbsup:
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline scooter

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2020, 09:22:55 am »
Whilst not an aircraft, I'd have preferred Land Rovers as part of the DoD's CUCV series and blue (non-tactical) fleet.
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Offline dadlamassu

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2020, 09:40:16 am »
Whilst not an aircraft, I'd have preferred Land Rovers as part of the DoD's CUCV series and blue (non-tactical) fleet.

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Offline scooter

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2020, 10:32:49 am »
I was looking at it from the non-SOF/OIF perspective.  Give us one standard fleet of vehicles, instead of Fords, Dodges, Chevy/GMC vehicles mixed in a blender.
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Offline kitbasher

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Re: British aircraft that the American military should have bought
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2020, 10:58:25 am »
Interesting point about the mutual aid arrangements - as noted, many Hunters, etc, were purchased by the US for European allies.  Now Lightnings for Europe would have been good, but never happening in a million years with the F-104 to flog!

Agree with Argosy/Belslow over US trash haulers.  The latter were far superior.

Buccaneer yes nice to think it could be bought but when you think how the Intruder morphed into the Prowler, could the Bucc?  Perhaps if the RAF hadn’t obsessed with supersonics, ditched the TSR.2 (oooh controversial!) and gone for the Bucc in the early 60s (oh yes and bin the P1154 in the process, not related I know) then who knows how the Bucc could have sold.

US Navy Nimrod would be nice but given investment in the P-3 by the time the Nimrod entered service, I doubt that could happen.

So in short I think the UK did reasonably well in selling Canberra and Harrier to the US.
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