Author Topic: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF  (Read 452 times)

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Offline kitbasher

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2019, 04:33:45 am »
Very nice.  Had a few trips in Gazelles in the past, once with a stonking hangover, another poling it around the Salisbury Plain danger areas.  Probably the prettiest helicopter ever.

As for fuel, IIRC the Vipers fitted to Shackleton MR3 Phase 3s were configured to run on Avgas not Avtur.
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Offline Scotaidh

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2019, 09:14:44 am »
Thanks, mate! :thumbsup:
Funny that a lower grade fuel makes it work fine, i believed jet engines could only run on the specific type of fuel that it was built to run on but, that's no surprise as i don't have any significant knowledge on that type of subject. Makes me wonder what you could resort to as aviation fuel in a global crisis scenario.
Thanks for sharing that bit.  :thumbsup:

As I understand it, pretty much any liquid fuel.  Does anyone know specifics?
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2019, 09:34:42 am »
Turbines are remarkably flexible in their appetite for fuel. The Leyland turbines we used on the APT-E could run on normal railway engine diesel fuel, low octane aviation fuel (AVTAG I think) or even petrol. Mostly we used the railway diesel as it was always handy, but when we had to we tried all the others too.
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Offline kitnut617

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2019, 10:50:59 am »
The book I have on early British and German turbojets, says at the end of the war the Germans wanted their turbojets to run on straight crude.  They were planning on powering their tanks with the engines.
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Offline DogfighterZen

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2019, 04:07:36 pm »
Very nice.  Had a few trips in Gazelles in the past, once with a stonking hangover, another poling it around the Salisbury Plain danger areas.  Probably the prettiest helicopter ever.

As for fuel, IIRC the Vipers fitted to Shackleton MR3 Phase 3s were configured to run on Avgas not Avtur.

Glad you like it, mate!  :thumbsup: It is indeed a pretty bugger. The other chopper that i really like is the AH-1 Cobra. The latest AH-1Z variant is gorgeous and i want to buy the Kittyhawk  1/48 model of it, besides a couple of 1/72 kits for whif builds.

As I understand it, pretty much any liquid fuel.  Does anyone know specifics?

Turbines are remarkably flexible in their appetite for fuel. The Leyland turbines we used on the APT-E could run on normal railway engine diesel fuel, low octane aviation fuel (AVTAG I think) or even petrol. Mostly we used the railway diesel as it was always handy, but when we had to we tried all the others too.

The book I have on early British and German turbojets, says at the end of the war the Germans wanted their turbojets to run on straight crude.  They were planning on powering their tanks with the engines.

 :o wow... i've always thought that pure crude would be too thick to be used in jet engines... that just comes to show how much i know about this type of thing. Then i guess that it wouldn't be too hard to keep jets flying if a global crisis affected refined fuel production and availability became an issue.
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Offline Old Wombat

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2019, 01:58:15 am »
The other chopper that i really like is the AH-1 Cobra. The latest AH-1Z variant is gorgeous and i want to buy the Kittyhawk  1/48 model of it,

Just to make you jealous, I have the 1/35 version in the stash - looks good in the box, just hope it goes together better than the Cougar.

The book I have on early British and German turbojets, says at the end of the war the Germans wanted their turbojets to run on straight crude.  They were planning on powering their tanks with the engines.

 :o wow... i've always thought that pure crude would be too thick to be used in jet engines... that just comes to show how much i know about this type of thing. Then i guess that it wouldn't be too hard to keep jets flying if a global crisis affected refined fuel production and availability became an issue.

IF (very big if) I remember correctly, the Germans were going to pre-heat the crude, initially a starter tank kept warm electrically, then once it was running , with exhaust gasses.

They were also considering using coal dust as an additive to improve the burn for the amount of difficult-to-get liquid fuel.

The M1 Abrams tanks' turbines run on automotive diesel - reduces the logistics train, as the Americans (& most of their allies) already use diesel for most of their vehicles.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 02:00:11 am by Old Wombat »
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Offline DogfighterZen

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #21 on: November 24, 2019, 04:17:13 am »
The other chopper that i really like is the AH-1 Cobra. The latest AH-1Z variant is gorgeous and i want to buy the Kittyhawk  1/48 model of it,
Just to make you jealous, I have the 1/35 version in the stash - looks good in the box, just hope it goes together better than the Cougar.

You're mean, sir... ;D ;D  :thumbsup:
I've seen the Academy kit's review and indeed, it looks great. I only want to have the AH-1 in 1/48 because of the rest of the kits i have.
Chopper wise, i have 3 1/32 kits, the Revell Bell jet ranger, the  Monogram Blue Thunder and the Hobbycraft oh-6 Cayuse, which will be converted into the MD-500/AH-6 that's featured in the Blue Thunder movie and these are all for that purpose, the Blue Thunder choppers. There is an Eurocopter as350 of the news crew that shows up in a scene or two but, i haven't found a 1/32 kit of that one and it really doesn't matter much cause it's not a very important role so i'm happy with the main 3.
In 1/48 i have the Fujimi Gazelle and Kiowa, 2 Academy MD-500, and an Italeri OH-58D Kiowa warrior so, i'm missing a UH-1, AH-1 and an Apache to complete my 1/48 chopper stash and then there are the 1/72 Alouette III, Comanche, Cobra, Huey and Apache... :rolleyes:

IF (very big if) I remember correctly, the Germans were going to pre-heat the crude, initially a starter tank kept warm electrically, then once it was running , with exhaust gasses.

They were also considering using coal dust as an additive to improve the burn for the amount of difficult-to-get liquid fuel.

The M1 Abrams tanks' turbines run on automotive diesel - reduces the logistics train, as the Americans (& most of their allies) already use diesel for most of their vehicles.

Heating the crude would certainly make it a bit thinner but i imagine the clouds of thick black smoke coming from those exhausts... it would probably be similar to a burning oil extraction well... :o ;D
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Offline PR19_Kit

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #22 on: November 24, 2019, 06:22:10 am »

 :o wow... i've always thought that pure crude would be too thick to be used in jet engines... that just comes to show how much i know about this type of thing. Then i guess that it wouldn't be too hard to keep jets flying if a global crisis affected refined fuel production and availability became an issue.


In the 50s & 60s the Union Pacific Railroad in the USA had some BIG gas turbine powered locos, and they ran on 'Bunker C' fuel, which was the crudest fraction available and was almost solid at room temperature. They used steam heating coils in the fuel tenders to get it liquid enough to pump and burn, and they certainly DID smoke like crazy when they started up! The exhaust pipe on the largest versions of those locos was about 8-9 FEET in diameter, so you can imagine the size of the smoke cloud.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=up+big+blow+startup&&view=detail&mid=F72D15149ACC92AAA023F72D15149ACC92AAA023&&FORM=VRDGAR

Go to 1:30 secs to see what I mean, and it's ALREADY started and running.  :o
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

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Kit

Offline NARSES2

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2019, 06:46:41 am »
Re the use of crude as a fuel, would it depend on the type of crude ? After all there are many different types straight out of the well head and some of the lighter ones are very "light" indeed.

Coal dust as a fuel or powdered coal ? Again dependent on the type of coal, powdered coal could work. It was gradually being used as a cheaper alternative to fuel oil in blast furnace injectors by the 80's. If memory serves then it would need to be the high end, hard coal not the "brown" soft Lignite end of the spectrum.
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Offline DogfighterZen

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #24 on: November 24, 2019, 03:31:06 pm »
In the 50s & 60s the Union Pacific Railroad in the USA had some BIG gas turbine powered locos, and they ran on 'Bunker C' fuel, which was the crudest fraction available and was almost solid at room temperature. They used steam heating coils in the fuel tenders to get it liquid enough to pump and burn, and they certainly DID smoke like crazy when they started up! The exhaust pipe on the largest versions of those locos was about 8-9 FEET in diameter, so you can imagine the size of the smoke cloud.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=up+big+blow+startup&&view=detail&mid=F72D15149ACC92AAA023F72D15149ACC92AAA023&&FORM=VRDGAR

Go to 1:30 secs to see what I mean, and it's ALREADY started and running.  :o

What a smoker...  ;D :thumbsup: that's pretty much like i imagined, a big and dark smoke cloud left behind... but i imagine that these locomotives would be pulling rather big compositions, right?

Re the use of crude as a fuel, would it depend on the type of crude ? After all there are many different types straight out of the well head and some of the lighter ones are very "light" indeed.

Coal dust as a fuel or powdered coal ? Again dependent on the type of coal, powdered coal could work. It was gradually being used as a cheaper alternative to fuel oil in blast furnace injectors by the 80's. If memory serves then it would need to be the high end, hard coal not the "brown" soft Lignite end of the spectrum.

Guess it's new one for me, i thought there was only one type of crude... :rolleyes: :thumbsup:
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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2019, 04:25:38 pm »

What a smoker...  ;D :thumbsup: that's pretty much like i imagined, a big and dark smoke cloud left behind... but i imagine that these locomotives would be pulling rather big compositions, right?


Yes, the Big Blows had 8000 hp on a good day and were scheduled for the very heavy freights over the Warsatch Mountains.
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

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Offline NARSES2

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2019, 12:07:57 am »

Guess it's new one for me, i thought there was only one type of crude... :rolleyes: :thumbsup:

Believe me so did I. That was until at the back end of my career I got heavily involved with both U.K. and E.U. climate change monitoring data requirements. And before anyone says it the U.K. Government's were by far the most onerous and detailed   :rolleyes:
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Offline DogfighterZen

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Re: Westland SA 342P Gazelle of the PoAF
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2019, 02:27:41 am »

Guess it's new one for me, i thought there was only one type of crude... :rolleyes: :thumbsup:

Believe me so did I. That was until at the back end of my career I got heavily involved with both U.K. and E.U. climate change monitoring data requirements. And before anyone says it the U.K. Government's were by far the most onerous and detailed   :rolleyes:

This is just one of the reasons why this forum is my modelling home and you guys are my modelling family, besides the what-if side of things, the info just keeps flowing, everyone is always sharing useful knowledge and helping out in any way possible. I learn something almost everyday i come here and i'm very thankful for that! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

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