Over-The-Nose Visibility

Started by KJ_Lesnick, July 15, 2010, 06:58:49 PM

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KJ_Lesnick

It's an important quality for Carrier-Based aircraft, but I'm wondering what Air-Force Aircraft meet the criteria the US Navy require?  Also, are there any US Navy Aircraft that do not (The F8U-3 and F-18A don't look like they would do too well)

KJ Lesnick
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

deathjester

I would say the A-7, and the A-10 - probably the Thunderbolt II would be the best carrier plane, for visibility.  Also, the C-130, great over nose visibility, and proven capable of carrier landings!

Weaver

It's not just a question of the shape of the nose, it also depends on the angle of attack on approach. I'm guessing that the F-18's FBW system and aerodynamics allow it to make a slow-enough approach at a reasonable AoA. Were it the same shape(ish), but with 1960s technology, it might have more of a problem. Also, remember that a USN F-18 is a relatively small aircraft on a VERY big carrier, so it can probably afford to come in hotter and flatter than it would on, say, the Charles de Gaul.
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones

famvburg


     Well, since the A-7 was already a USN a/c.......


Quote from: deathjester on July 16, 2010, 03:05:32 AM
I would say the A-7, and the A-10 - probably the Thunderbolt II would be the best carrier plane, for visibility.  Also, the C-130, great over nose visibility, and proven capable of carrier landings!

deathjester

I was rather thinking of the USAF A-7D, built especially for them.....
Besides, the A-10 would make a good carrier plane - low approach speed, strong u/c, good range, manouverable, heavy firepower, low maintenance....

ChernayaAkula

Quote from: Weaver on July 16, 2010, 04:31:59 AM
It's not just a question of the shape of the nose, it also depends on the angle of attack on approach. <...>

One wonders how the Rafales fares in that regard. They seem to land with a very high angle of attack. :o

Quote from: deathjester on July 16, 2010, 02:33:44 PM
<...> the A-10 would make a good carrier plane - low approach speed, <...>

Actually, they'd have to ask the carrier to slow down a bit. At top speed, the carrier would probably outrun the A-10. :lol: I think someone (probably an Eagle or Viper driver) on ARC remarked that the A-10 is the only aircraft to have suffered birdstrikes from the rear.  :wacko:
Cheers,
Moritz


Must, then, my projects bend to the iron yoke of a mechanical system? Is my soaring spirit to be chained down to the snail's pace of matter?

GTX

Quote from: ChernayaAkula on July 16, 2010, 04:13:08 PM
Actually, they'd have to ask the carrier to slow down a bit. At top speed, the carrier would probably outrun the A-10. :lol: I think someone (probably an Eagle or Viper driver) on ARC remarked that the A-10 is the only aircraft to have suffered birdstrikes from the rear.  :wacko:

No, I'm sure the Caribou suffered that indignity on a regular occurrence! ;D

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

ChernayaAkula

Yeah, but then again, that was a wanted feature (the slow speed, not having birds fly up the exhausts  :wacko:) of the Caribou. Hence my idea to use them as COD planes for the helo pads of cruisers and destroyers. :lol:
Cheers,
Moritz


Must, then, my projects bend to the iron yoke of a mechanical system? Is my soaring spirit to be chained down to the snail's pace of matter?

Mossie

Harrier.  RAF, rather than USAF I suppose but it would more than meet all requirements for deck landing of course.

The F-15 doesn't have much worse a view than the F-14 & a naval F-15N was proposed.
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

KJ_Lesnick

Mossie,

QuoteHarrier.  RAF, rather than USAF I suppose but it would more than meet all requirements for deck landing of course.

Makes sense as they're used off carriers

QuoteThe F-15 doesn't have much worse a view than the F-14 & a naval F-15N was proposed.

Instinctively I would agree, but I remember hearing at least once that it wasn't quite sufficient, maybe this was simply an excuse by the USN to prevent the F-15N from entering service with them, but who knows?
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

Mossie

Quote from: KJ_Lesnick on July 17, 2010, 12:32:28 PM
Mossie,

QuoteHarrier.  RAF, rather than USAF I suppose but it would more than meet all requirements for deck landing of course.

Makes sense as they're used off carriers

Wasn't it's original role though, the VTOL requirements just lent themselves to carrier ops
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

Weaver

Quote from: ChernayaAkula on July 16, 2010, 04:13:08 PM
Quote from: Weaver on July 16, 2010, 04:31:59 AM
It's not just a question of the shape of the nose, it also depends on the angle of attack on approach. <...>

One wonders how the Rafales fares in that regard. They seem to land with a very high angle of attack. :o

Truem but then again, they have a rather shorter nose shape than the F-18 that Kendra was talking about, so maybe they're geometrically better?




Quote
Quote from: deathjester on July 16, 2010, 02:33:44 PM
<...> the A-10 would make a good carrier plane - low approach speed, <...>

Actually, they'd have to ask the carrier to slow down a bit. At top speed, the carrier would probably outrun the A-10. :lol: I think someone (probably an Eagle or Viper driver) on ARC remarked that the A-10 is the only aircraft to have suffered birdstrikes from the rear.  :wacko:


Somewhere in a book I have an A-10 pilot's first solo certificate, which features an excellent caricature of the aircraft with kitchen sinks among the underwing ordnance, tank-style rivets all around the cockpit "bathtub", "Acme Cement" on the engine nacelles and a bird flying into it from behind..... ;D
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones

KJ_Lesnick

The F7U Cutlass landed at an extremely high AoA, in fact so high that they couldn't even see the deck (at all).  Yet the nose wasn't that abnormally shaped
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep); should I be framed for a criminal offense or disappear, you know to blame.

PR19_Kit

But they changed the shape of the nose of the Cutlass radically between the original  F7U-1 and the -3. The -1 has a relatively conventional cockpit position but the -3 had a much higher one and it was moved further forward I think. Either that or they shortened the nose itself.
Kit's Rule 1 ) Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage
Kit's Rule 2) The backstory can always be changed to suit the model

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Weaver

The F7U-3 cockpit was raised up, leading to the big fairing behind it, and the nose shape was changed from a pure cone to something like an A-4 profile to make the angle of it's upper surface more steeply sloped.
"Things need not have happened to be true. Tales and dreams are the shadow-truths that will endure when mere facts are dust and ashes, and forgot."
 - Sandman: A Midsummer Night's Dream, by Neil Gaiman

"I dunno, I'm making this up as I go."
 - Indiana Jones