Author Topic: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk  (Read 22765 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline PolluxDeltaSeven

  • Full scale Arrow in basement
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #30 on: November 11, 2007, 04:39:22 pm »
Interresting ideas, Nick!

For my part, I started (and never finished) to build a two seat variant of the Hawk 200, I mean a two seat Hawk with a radar suite in a longer and larger nose.
The radar is probably an APG-67, even if an APG-68/80 with smaller antenna could probably fit in the modified nose. Talking about radar from other countries, a French RC-400/RDY-3, an Italian Grifo or an Israelian design could be other possibilities.

I still don't know what to do with it.
It could be a plane from the third batch of the Brazilian Navy order, or maybe a RN bird.
But I also imagine a much more strange solution, dreaming of a Mistel between a modified rotodome-less E-2C and a Hawk!! Bizarre, isn't it??
"laissez mes armées être les rochers et les arbres et les oiseaux dans le ciel"
-Charlemagne-

Coming Soon in Alternate History:
-Battlefleet Galactica
-Republic of Libertalia: a modern Pirate Story

Offline Jeffry Fontaine

  • Don't need no stinking instructions
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 3380
  • What-If's "Uncle Jeffry"
    • http://www.facebook.com/jeffryfontaine
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2007, 12:09:14 am »
I wonder if the the BAE Hawk/T-45 Goshawk was given any serious consideration for the COIN mission now that there is a renewed interest in finding a suitable aircraft after so many years of ignoring it.  I think the Hawk/Goshawk would be suitable aircraft for use in the forward air control mission and as a light attack aircraft for counter-insurgency support.  It would be as good as or better than the A-37 with the added advantage of not sucking up FOD from the runway since it is no where near as low to the ground as the "Tweet." 

The two seat version is a must to get that second pair of eyes for finding the opposition and to deal with targeting and communicating that targeting information to other aircraft or ground units that would be tasked to fire on the targets. 

As far as a useful weapons load, I imagine that the centerline mounted gun pod would be retained for all missions.  Other ordnance carried for the type of mission would mirror that which was carried by the OV-10 Bronco and the A-37.  Figure on a pair of fuel tanks to extend range or loiter time and the usual rocket pods with white phosphorus warheads for marking targets.  Perhaps a laser targeting pod such as the Litening pod for marking targets for other aircraft carrying laser guided bombs.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2008, 11:39:19 am by Jeffry Fontaine »
Unaffiliated Independent Subversive
----------------------------------
"Every day we hear about new studies 'revealing' what should have been obvious to sentient beings for generations; 'Research shows wolverines don't like to be teased" -- Jonah Goldberg

Offline Mossie

  • Twiglet doctor
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 13467
  • Don't laugh at his mule
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2007, 05:35:05 am »
I'm not sure about the T-45 but the Hawk in RAF service fills the COIN role, both in ground attack & air defence.  Hawks have been seen in both wraparound camo with matra pods or bombs, and also grey air defence scheme with sidewinders as part of the T.1A mod (interestingly, the Red Arrows Hawks were included in this mod).  Centreline podded Aden cannon are also a regular feature.  While these aircraft are primarily used in the weapons training role, there is a COIN capability there.  Now as far as the T-45 goes, maybe you could upgrade it to a T-45D using a Hawk 100 kit?  The Hawk 100 has provision for targeting sytems, that long chisel nose can carry a number of systems.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1100...rne&photo_nr=27
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1100...rne&photo_nr=27

Digressing slightly, I've been thinking about what to do with the Hawk I've got in stash.  I thought about late cancellation of the Jaguar & that the Hawk entered service soon after the Jag.  Upgrade the Adour in the Hawk, or even add a single RB.199, new wing for extra weapon carrying capability, internal cannon, chisel nose like the Jag?
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

Offline PolluxDeltaSeven

  • Full scale Arrow in basement
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2007, 06:18:32 am »
For a dedicate COIN variant of the Hawk, we could probably imagine many different ways.

In this other topic, we talked about internal guns for the single seat Hawk 100.

-We could imagine to have a single seat Hawk with either a full FLIR/laser designator in the nose, with the centerline pylons free for weapons, or either a radar in the nose (maybe something optimised for air-to-ground uses) and a FLIR/laser designator pod under the fuselage stations.

2 Sidewinders (or 4 Stingers) could be carry on the wing tips for self defense, while the 4 wing's pylons could carry two 125kg GBU bombs each.

-A new wing could also be imagined, with more internal fuel and two additional pylons. Two of them could carry tanks, while the 4 remaining carry weapons.

-But even with todays Hawk, we could have a good base for a COIN/anti-helo aircraft:
Put 4 Stinger on the wing tips instead of two AIM-9, keep the 30mm gun and two external tanks on the internal pylons, and you could use the external pylons to carry new small powerfull weapons such as SDB or Brimstone missiles.
I could imagine at least 8 Brimstone (maybe 12?) and 6 to 8 SDB for each Hawk, what do you think?

The SDB could be from a new generation, with both IR/laser and GPS guidance systems (the laser designator could be build in the nose, or in a turret under it, just like on some UAVs)
"laissez mes armées être les rochers et les arbres et les oiseaux dans le ciel"
-Charlemagne-

Coming Soon in Alternate History:
-Battlefleet Galactica
-Republic of Libertalia: a modern Pirate Story

SinUnNombre

  • Guest
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2007, 12:28:09 pm »
I've been planning my own Hawk upgrade kitbash. It could be used for CAS/CoIn, point defense/interception, or even for small navies with LHA type carriers. It could easily be seen in the colors of the USN/USMC, the RN, or Aeronavale. Anyway, I'd start with a Hawk 200. Then I would use the landing gear and arrestor hook from a T-45. I know that's been done many times over, but I still like the concept. Then I would add the afterburning Adour Mk 104 from a Jaguar. That boosts the thrust from 5,000lbs +/- to 8,000+/-. Of course that makes getting off carriers easier and you can fit a bit bigger warload. And since the engines are from the same family, fitting it shouldnt be a problem. I'm honestly kind of surprised no one has talked of that mod(that I know of). The Hawk is a pretty quick bird for its size as is, but with a burner......wow. Anyway, that's my idea.

Jon
« Last Edit: December 17, 2007, 12:32:13 pm by SinUnNombre »

Offline Mossie

  • Twiglet doctor
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 13467
  • Don't laugh at his mule
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2007, 04:54:00 pm »
Quote
I've been planning my own Hawk upgrade kitbash. It could be used for CAS/CoIn, point defense/interception, or even for small navies with LHA type carriers. It could easily be seen in the colors of the USN/USMC, the RN, or Aeronavale. Anyway, I'd start with a Hawk 200. Then I would use the landing gear and arrestor hook from a T-45. I know that's been done many times over, but I still like the concept. Then I would add the afterburning Adour Mk 104 from a Jaguar. That boosts the thrust from 5,000lbs +/- to 8,000+/-. Of course that makes getting off carriers easier and you can fit a bit bigger warload. And since the engines are from the same family, fitting it shouldnt be a problem. I'm honestly kind of surprised no one has talked of that mod(that I know of). The Hawk is a pretty quick bird for its size as is, but with a burner......wow. Anyway, that's my idea.

Jon
Jon, to add a burner & give true supersonic capability to the Hawk I think you'd need a partial redesign.  Greater wing sweep would be required & a larger airframe for the extra fuel for an afterburner.  This has probably been what would have stopped production of a beefier Hawk, especially since as a (partly) British aircraft the Jaguar was available with just that kind of capability.  Sorry, I don't mean to shoot down your idea!

Pollux, I think Brimstone would add some serious capability to the Hawk.  With Stinger, or possibly Starstreak, you wouldn't need a radar system either, the FLIR/laser designators should be able to handle these weapons?  Starstreak has been shown to be effective against AFV's (MBT's are probably too much) too.  Although it's a hit or miss weapon, the three independent warheads offer a good chance of a hit.
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

Offline PolluxDeltaSeven

  • Full scale Arrow in basement
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2007, 06:23:39 pm »
Quote
I'm honestly kind of surprised no one has talked of that mod(that I know of). The Hawk is a pretty quick bird for its size as is, but with a burner......wow. Anyway, that's my idea.
Personaly I never seriously thought about that modification because it require heavy surgery on the model (as Mossie said, you had to put the bigger engine and the bigger internal tanks in the fuselage) and I just don't have either the skills nor the patience to realize that!!  :lol:


Quote
Pollux, I think Brimstone would add some serious capability to the Hawk. With Stinger, or possibly Starstreak, you wouldn't need a radar system either, the FLIR/laser designators should be able to handle these weapons? Starstreak has been shown to be effective against AFV's (MBT's are probably too much) too. Although it's a hit or miss weapon, the three independent warheads offer a good chance of a hit.
I didn't thought about the radar as an air-to-air designator, but as a sensor for bad weather/anti-ship/terrain following etc... uses.
But after all, we could imagine a more multi-purpose aircraft with a multipurpose radar able to designate ground target and maybe air target at BVR range?

I admit that I prefer the solution with the laser designator in the nose, as it frees the centerline pylon for additional weapons. And after all, if we want a radar for terrain following, we could put it on a pod!! :P

And for the Starstreak, I admit that I don't know a thing about this missile! I said Stinger as a generic name, meaning that you could replace it by any missile in the same class of weight and size (Mistral, Starstreack, and why not dedicate anti-tank missiles?)


For the weapons, the Brimstone surely is the one I prefer (I always thought it is THE thing the Rafale lacks!!).
"laissez mes armées être les rochers et les arbres et les oiseaux dans le ciel"
-Charlemagne-

Coming Soon in Alternate History:
-Battlefleet Galactica
-Republic of Libertalia: a modern Pirate Story

Offline AeroplaneDriver

  • Not licensed to do this sort of thing
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 3968
  • Busy repainting the Jetstream in Red Arrows colors
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2007, 07:17:08 pm »
Quote
In an attempt to consolidate similar topics under one thread, I found this one sitting in the back waters of the forum and decided to revive it for further discussion.  So here we go...


I wonder if the the BAE Hawk/T-45 Goshawk was given any serious consideration for the COIN mission now that there is a renewed interest in finding a suitable aircraft after so many years of ignoring it.  

The Hawk/Goshawk would be suitable for use as a FAC and COIN/Light Attack platform.  It should be a better performer than the A-37 with the added advantage of not sucking up FOD from the runway since it is no where near as low to the ground as the A-37.  

The two seat version is a must to get that second pair of eyes for finding the opposition and to deal with targeting and communicating that targeting information to other aircraft or ground units that would be tasked to fire on the targets.  

So a useful weapons load would probably be the centerline gun pod and at least a pair of fuel tanks and rocket pods to mark targets.  As far as targeting pods, I am still undecided on what that would or should consist of.  I had considered the LANTIRN system since it provided a radar as well as laser and FLIR capabilities but where do you hang them?  Wing pylons are one location but what about mounting to the fuselage?
The USAF has had CAS Hawks since November according to this     ;)



(since this was taken last year the LANTIRN pod has been moved to a more practical/better looking centerline pylon, and a second Sidewinder added to the wingtip)

 
So I got that going for me...which is nice....

SinUnNombre

  • Guest
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2007, 07:25:35 am »
Quote
Jon, to add a burner & give true supersonic capability to the Hawk I think you'd need a partial redesign.  Greater wing sweep would be required & a larger airframe for the extra fuel for an afterburner.  This has probably been what would have stopped production of a beefier Hawk, especially since as a (partly) British aircraft the Jaguar was available with just that kind of capability.  Sorry, I don't mean to shoot down your idea!
 
Don't appologize, Mossie. Its my fault for not doing my research first. I just figured it was a drop-in replacement. And also, my afterburning Hawk 200(or 100, if you'd rather have a 2-holer) while filling a similar role to the Jag, its also navalised, where the Jag isn't(But it could be...). So for British forces, its not implausible to see them operating on missions alongside each other. And as a export version to countries with small carriers and need for a small multirole fighter could buy them. But if anyone could, I'd still like to build an afterburning, supersonic Hawk, just because I can.

Jon

Offline Mossie

  • Twiglet doctor
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 13467
  • Don't laugh at his mule
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2007, 08:19:14 am »
After shooting down your idea Jon, I'm now thinking of ways that you could modify the Hawk for supersonic speeds without too much modification!  The length of the afterburning adour is about 1m longer than the dry version, you might be able to get away with a bolt on extension on the rear, but the engineers will know.

Fuel wise, you could go a number of routes.  Ventral pack, in the central position that is often taken by the gun pod (but it would have to be pretty narrow because of the undercart), a spine lump like the A-4, CFT's over the intakes & slipper or tip tanks on the wings.  My feeling is that the slipper or tip tanks would be the best option.

As far as modifying the wings you might be able to get away with it.  The Hawk can go supersonic in a dive & I think that wing might capable of low mach numbers up to about 1.5.  With the reheat it might be well capable of supersonic dashes.

There, I always think you can make a whiff idea work if you plug at it.  Hopefully some of the engineers will be able to yay or nay my comments!
I don't think it's nice, you laughin'. You see, my mule don't like people laughin'. He gets the crazy idea you're laughin' at him. Now if you apologize, like I know you're going to, I might convince him that you really didn't mean it.

Offline PolluxDeltaSeven

  • Full scale Arrow in basement
  • *****
  • Posts: 1128
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #40 on: December 18, 2007, 04:32:49 pm »
If you like heavy surgery, maybe you could lengthened the front fuselage to compensate the weight of the AB engine extension. That could give you the place for the additional fuel.

And if you have the skills, maybe you could enlarged and/or lengthened the wings too?  
"laissez mes armées être les rochers et les arbres et les oiseaux dans le ciel"
-Charlemagne-

Coming Soon in Alternate History:
-Battlefleet Galactica
-Republic of Libertalia: a modern Pirate Story

Offline GTX

  • Beyond The Sprues Guy
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 10820
  • "Princess"
    • www.beyondthesprues.com/Forum
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #41 on: December 23, 2007, 11:28:53 am »
Well its not a Hawk I know, but it is about the same size:

A CASA C-101 Aviojet with 2 Sea Eagles:



If this could do it, the Hawk certainly should have been able to.

Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline nev

  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 12406
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #42 on: December 23, 2007, 06:06:55 pm »
Between almost-true and completely-crazy, there is a rainbow of nice shades - Tophe


Sales of Airfix kits plummeted in the 1980s, and GCSEs had to be made easier as a result - James May

Offline GTX

  • Beyond The Sprues Guy
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 10820
  • "Princess"
    • www.beyondthesprues.com/Forum
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2008, 01:15:46 pm »
Speaking of Hawks and Sea Eagles, here you go:




Regards,

Greg
All hail the God of Frustration!!!

Offline Aircav

  • Knows a lass who ended up working in Hull
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 7374
BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2008, 03:15:52 pm »
Its about time someone kitted the T-45 in 1/48 scale
"Subvert and convert" By Me  :-)

"Sophistication means complication, then escallation, cancellation and finally ruination."
Sir Sydney Camm

"Men do not stop playing because they grow old, they grow old because they stop playing" - Oliver Wendell Holmes

Vertical Airscrew SIG Leader