Usaf Tornado

[viper29_ca]

Us Canadians looked at buying the Tornado as well, when we were doing trials that eventually ended in us buying the CF-18.

In the hunt was,

F-14
F-15
F-16
F-18
F-20
Mirage F.1
Mirage 2000
Tornado GR.1

The first round of cuts dumped the 2 Mirages, the F.1 being too old, and 2000 being too new of an aircraft (this was in 1980-'81), the tornado was also dumped as being a too new, and unproven aircraft....so the F15 and F16 were around before the Tornado was.

F-14 and F-15 were dumped as they were too expensive, which left a competition between the F-16, F-18 and F-20. F-20 being common parts with the CF-5s we already had, but it along with the F-16 was dumped for only having 1 engine, and on long over Arctic flights that our pilots would have to do, 2 engines were better than one, thus the selection of the F-18, what we now call the CF-188 Hornet.

[Mossie]

Viper, how come the Tornado was rejected as being too new, but a newer aircraft was chosen, especially since they took some of the first jets of the production line???  :dum:  Was there a delay in selction, or was the American bung just bigger than the European one???

Seriously, was this just the politics of selection or did the Hornet just impress after the Tornado had already been dropped?

[Shasper]

The WW Fin came about around the end of the eighties/beginning of the '90s as the Follow-On WW, Rockwell was nabbed as the US producer. At the same time WW versions of the F-15 & 16 were put forth, with the end result being the Weasle sh*t can knows as the F-16CJ today.


Shas B)

[Mossie]

Ah, cheers Shas, I assumed it was for the EF-111 contract.  So the wild weasel Tonka would not have been a pure ECM aircraft like the Raven or Prowler?  I guess it would have been very similar in appearance to a standard Tonka, a bit like the Tornado ECR SEAD variant operated by the Germans & Italians, or the RAF SEAD capable F.3's?

[Shasper]

No it was for the follow-on to the F-4G, it would have been more of a SEAD than a EW bird (along the lines of the Torn. ECR)

Shas B)

[elmayerle]

I've considered modelling two of them, one as an EF-24A "Jammer" and another as an EF-24B "SEAD Bird".  Make a nice pair together.

[viper29_ca]

Viper, how come the Tornado was rejected as being too new, but a newer aircraft was chosen, especially since they took some of the first jets of the production line???  Was there a delay in selction, or was the American bung just bigger than the European one??? 

Seriously, was this just the politics of selection or did the Hornet just impress after the Tornado had already been dropped?

Hey there Mossie,

I think it was more to the fact that the Tornado had massive delays, and in the end would have cost the Canadian Tax payer more money, where as the CF-18s could come off the line now, for less money.

Heck we had our CF-18s flying before the USN had their flying in operational squadrons.

Had we of waited for the Tornados, our Starfighters and Voodoos would have had to soldier on for another 2-3yrs, and then we would have only had the GR.1 attack version of the Tornado, then having to wait until '87 or so to get the F.1 Tornado for air defence. Hence why the British had to take on used F-4s for their air defence until the F.1 Tornado was ready. They too could have had F-14s!!

Rather than having to wait longer, and for 2 different aircraft, we opted for the one aircraft that could do both jobs, and we could have them now, rather than waiting another 5 years. I would say in the end, it was the smartest decision, as the Hornet is a better aircraft that the Tornado. Mind you I believe that had we opted for F-14s, we would have exploited their ability to launch air to ground weapons long before the USN decided to re-invent their F-14s into Bombcats.
Whether we would have been able to afford the Phoenix missile for the F-14 is another story...at $1million per missile....it would have been an expensive option.  

[Martin H]

in march 1978, Air Pictorial noted that Canada was due to place an order for 100 plus Tornados Then in January 1979 they noted that the Tornado was no longer in the running and that the F-16 and F-18 were now being looked at.
Then to realy muddy the water it was noted in the May 1979 issue that Iran was looking to sell its F-14 fleet and that Canada was so say the least very interested.

[Mossie]

Hmmm, so we're not only looking at USAF Tonka's/Fin's but RCAF as well?  Sounds good, any other possible customers?  I guess the northern European countries that took Vipers or Bugs might have been in the running?

And apart from Maple-leaved Tonka's, F-14's as well?  1979 seems odd timing, as the Ayatollah took power early in that year.  Were the Iranians just looking at getting rid of American equipment?  Whatever, AIM-54's would have been handy for keeping the Bears out of the back-yard, if a bit on the pricey side!

Do I sense a few profiles &/or models from the land Mounties & Mooses???

[GTX]

Hi folks,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Canada part of the original MRCA (Multi Role Combat Aircraft) program that eventually led to the Tornado? I believe they pulled out early on though.  Makes you wonder if things would have been different if they had stayed in.

Regards,

Greg  

[Archibald]

Yes it was, along Netherlands and Belgium... in 1968.
In fact the MRCA started as a kind of "NATO F-104 replacement", with as many
F-104 owners as possible...

[Shasper]

Wasnt France involved too, or am I thinking of the Eurofighter?

Shas B)

[Mossie]

France were actually a very early partner with Britain, before MRCA came along.  This was known as AFVG (anglo-french variable geometry).  The French were never particularly that interested, & when they pulled out the British went ahead with UKVG on their own.  Us Brits were that desperate for a strike aircraft that we were willing to go it alone, even when partnerships were starting to become the in thing.  Luckily enough, several other nations were looking for a similar aircraft at the same time & the work done in the previous studies was used in the development of MRCA.

Again, the French were involved early on in Eurofighter & pulled out of that one too!

[Shasper]

clicky

Above link is to a thread thats on the WW Fin.

Shas B)

[Archibald]

France were actually a very early partner with Britain, before MRCA came along.  This was known as AFVG (anglo-french variable geometry).  The French were never particularly that interested, & when they pulled out the British went ahead with UKVG on their own.  Us Brits were that desperate for a strike aircraft that we were willing to go it alone, even when partnerships were starting to become the in thing.  Luckily enough, several other nations were looking for a similar aircraft at the same time & the work done in the previous studies was used in the development of MRCA.

Again, the French were involved early on in Eurofighter & pulled out of that one too!

AFVG studies ran from May 1965 (program was launched in paralel with the Jaguar supersonic trainer/ strike aircraft) to June 1967, when France withdrawn from the program, thanks the Dassault family for that!      

Worst thing is, after leaving the AFVG program, Dassault built the Mirage G8 (very similar to the Tornado in basic concept) then the ACF (fixed wing / M53 variant of the G8) from 1971 to 1975. They were too expensive for France alone    , so nuclear deterrent was assumed by "upgraded" Mirage IV, then by Mirage 2000N... with shorter range, and only one engine.  

Most hilarious (or pityful) thing is the fact that, when the ACF was scrapped as too expensive in late 1975, alternatives studied by the AdA included F-15s and... MRCAs    

I've build an AdA Tornado with an ASMP on a ventral pylon.