Design a Sea Vixen successor in 1960

[uk 75]

The year is 1960. The Royal Navy is told by the Treasury that no new carrier can be ordered before 1970 (for delivery in 1979-like the Invincibles were supposed to be) and it must look for ways of keeping its existing ships or getting out of the carrier business altogether.  Faced with only 2 servicable units (Eagle and Hermes) and two spares ships (Ark Royal and Victorious) the Sea Lords look at what aircraft can join the ships in about 1968 onward to replace the Sea Vixen and maybe also the Buccaneer.  They want the F4 Phantom, but there is no way this plane can be made to operate from Hermes, and two carriers is the minimum force.

The British Aircraft Industry is asked to design a Sea Vixen replacement. Any ideas from the floor?

UK 75

[monkeyhanger]

How about versions based on the Hawk. although this didn't fly until 1974 the origins may be useful. Sea Gnat FR3 anyone? Victoriuous (even though she had been cut in two, and expanded) couldn't really manage a useful number of Phantoms, so you need a small British design.

or/

A good thing to replace Sea vixens would be, Sea Vixens! Thin wing, more modern engines, better radar, Sidewinders and Sparrow.......

[MAD]

How about a RR Spey powered version of the Vought F-8 Crusader
Equiped with all-weather capability and both IR and radar guided AAM's.
It would be light, supersonic, have a small spotting space on both deck and hanger, versitile and unlike the Sea Vixen, it would be a great dogfighter (which would be very handy in say the Falkland War of the future!).

Or what about a British version of the Grumman F11F-2 Super Tiger?

[RLBH]

What about the DH.127? It was designed to OR.346 historically, intended as a Sea Vixen and Buccaneer replacement, though I can't see the latter.

It's got a high delta wing, which would ordinarily cause problems for a carrierborne aircraft, but seeing as it was designed specifically as one, the approach speed was just 85 knots, and I expect the nose-high attitude was also considered. Size is somewhat less than the Phantom, with two RB.156 or Spey engines (depending on whether you believe the left-hand or right-hand page), and two RB.162 lift engines in the nose for STOL ability.

In the interceptor role, four Red Tops could be carried semisubmerged under the fuselage, with a four hour patrol possible. The aircraft could alternatively carry a 2,000lb nuclear bomb, four 1,000lb conventional bombs or a reconnaisance pack in that location, with two wing hardpoints for fuel tanks or further conventional bombs.

Plus, it just looks damn good in FAA colours...

Source: British Secret Projects: Jet Bombers since 1949, pp127-129

[Sentinel Chicken]

What about the P.1154? By eliminating the need for catapults and arresting gear, the remaining vessels might be able to carry a decent-sized air wing.

The DH.127 would be a nice option, but it's not that much smaller than a Phantom if I remember right (gotta go dig out Tony Buttler's book to check the dimensions). And it still would need arresting gear.

The Crusader I like, but again, I'd think that between the P.1154 and conventional aircraft, VSTOL probably offers certain advantages.  

[Geoff_B]

Vickers (Supermarine) 583 VG was the front runner for the Sea Vixen replacement before the VTOL obsession and the daft idea to merge the RN Sea Vixen replacement with the RAF's Hunter replacement.

The 583 was designed to operate off the current British Carrier and perform both the Combat Air Patrol role and later on the strike role to replace the buccs. Size wise it was about the same as a flogger but with twin engines.

Once the 1154 went to the wall and the Phantome ordered as a stop gap the design was revived and merges with Dassault to create the AFVG which was originally intended to be a strike fighterm capable of both role.

Only with the cancelation of TSR2, then the French withdrawal and later opt out of F-111 did the UKVG program end up as the dedicated Tornado strike aircraft.

G

[uk 75]

Some good stuff here.  I share Thorvic's enthusiasm for the BAC 583, though I think the DH design was also a good possibility.  HS 1154 could have been made to work, but at some price and time (I like it enough to use it in the UK 75 world).

Crusader served the French Navy well and I suspect that if the Shorts version had been pursued it could have done the same thing for the RN.

Could a carrier version of Tornado have operated off Hermes I wonder.

UK 75

[Zen]

1960.....very well UK75 lets do this.

BAC (Vickers) Type 583 and Type 584 are the basis of that conglomerates approach. Both are VG machines, 583 using two RB.153 engines, the 584 using a RB.177.
The attractions of the former is its twin engines permitting a prototype using Avons.
The latter has the attraction of two internal bays for 1,000lb bombs or 12ft long AAMs.

Seperate submissions from Supermarine with derivatives of the Scimitar.
Warton (EE) has Lightning derivatives.

Shorts offeres the PD56 configured wither for STOL with the forward lift jets retained but the aft ones removed to increase internal fuel tankage.

HSA has several offerings
First off Hawkers offer a P1103 type with podded main gear. Effectively a derivative of their P1121 prototype, first flight can be in 1 year from ITP using parts of the exisitng P1121 prototype as a interime prototype.
Secondly the P1150 and P1154 are offered.

Thirdly a derivative machine the P1125, which uses wings, tail and front fusilage from the P1121 but has a new main body housing twin Avons. This last being to meet RN requirements for a twin engined conventional machine.

Brough offers derivatives of the Buccaneer.
B112 combat air patrol fighter (circa 1958)
B117 high altitude fighter variant
B129/P140 Fighter for mach 1.8 (circa 1962)

DeHavilands offer versions of the DH.127. A single engined variant is offered. Interime developments of the Sea Vixen are offered to cover the transition.

Saunders Roe offer both the SR.177 and a twin engined machine derived from it, a kind of scaled down P187.

Folland offer the derivatives of the Gnat Mk V from fixed wing to the VG Fo.147.

Avro offers two derivatives of other machines, the later versions of the 720 and a scaled derivative of the 739.

[Zen]

The Winnowing.

RN will demand all single engine and single seaters are ruled out, the UK sourced contest will thus look like this.

BAC options
1 Type583
2 Supermarine Scimitar derivative
3 Lightning derivative

HSA options
1 P1125 derivative
2 DH 127
3 scaled 739
4 Buccaneer derivative
5 Gnat MkV derivative.

AWA.166
SR.? twin engined fighter
Shorts PD 56 twin engined version.

The rulings
This depends on the RN's timetable, the faster they need a machine in service to replace the Sea Vixen the fewer the options.
The fastest options are a interim Super Sea Vixen and a Scimitar development.
Scimitar Type 576 was expected for ISD in 1962-63.
Sea Vixen types depend on the improvements from Avon reheat by 1961 to thin wing by 1964.

Lightning VG could be ready by 1965 but there could be great potential for delays.

Type 583 could be a ISD by 1965-66.
P1125 by 1964-65 prototype by 62-63.

SR machine by 1965

Gnat MkV by 1962-63 but Fo147 around 1964-65.

Buccaneer is hard to estimate.
Scaled 739 is not estimatable, but assume a later date around 1966.

So lets bring the options down again.
VG is ruled out as having potential to be a serious cause of delay and cost rises.
Lift jets ruled out for cost and operational reasons.
Twin seats required.

Vixen ruled out as insufficiently enhancable in performance.
Lightning as either having VG or too high a landing speed.

Buccaneer as too heavy.

Fast track option is a fleet of Scimitar developments, for fleet wide commonality existing F1 types will be upgraded to the new spec.

Or Saunders Roe SR? derived from the SR177 much support for a good flexible design but concern expressed over the lack of a company airfield.

Or Gnat mkV privately ruled out as being too small, but not officialy not.

P1125 Admiralty divided over this one this being between those more 'fighter' oriented and those more 'strike' oriented.

It comes down to folded size and the RAFs opinion if their also getting this.

Of these the SR machine (which I must get around to posting my estimated sketch of) folds down smaller than the others, but the RAF favour the P1125.

[GeorgeC]

The Phantom, Tornado and Buccaneer are all about the 60-70 000 lbs max weight, so the ability to land on a 'small' carrier depends on how much you are prepared to sacrifice to install clever aerodynamic devices to achieve this.  I assume the Phantom didn't bother as it was intended to land on the new generation of CVAs - the USN invested in carrier tonnage instead!  The Buccaneer clearly did, and VG on the Vickers 583/4 and Tornado would have helped, albeit at considerable expense and complexity, and these would have been able to use the existing Fleet carriers.

Does this requirement get tied up with the Hunter replacement as in the real time line? I doubt we could affort the development of an aircraft of this complexity just to meet the 100 or so airframes the FAA required.  In retrospect, the RN moving to a joint, V/STOL aircraft like the P1154, flown in more modest numbers from 3 or 4 super-Invinvibles of 30-35 000 tons could have saved the RN's carrier strike capability.  I doubt the P1154 could ever have had an engine/engine system of the desired power developed, but even a beefed-up Harrier, larger that the current GR9/AV8B+, would have been very useful for both services over the past 40 years!

Regards

GeorgeC    
   

[Zen]

Well for operation from Hermes, Centaur and Vicky the limits are around 45,000lb for take-off and landing speeds of around 125kts at 30,000lb.
This being dictated by the decks, lifts, Mk4 catapults and Mk13 arresting gear.

[Geoff_B]

George the initial 583 was for the Fighter version but it was expected that a variation would take over the Buccs strike role and have potential use by the RAF as Javelin and possibly Hunter/canberra replacement,

[Zen]

Hmmm....Type583

Prototype flies with Avons, but the intended engine the RB.153 is swapped for the RB.172 (not the Adour) as a cheaper solution after debate with RR.

Interim types would fly in 1969-70 with AI.23 and Red Top, perhaps being RAF machines. The RN waiting for the Aspinal CW set and new SARH AAM in 1972-73.

single seater for MRI in place of the Jaguar and perhaps a recce version?

[Mossie]

A late entry would be the Avro 720.  If the SR.177 had a chance, so did the Avro offering as the MoS, RN & RAF kept swapping & changing their minds as to which one they liked best.  Also an option would have been the Avro 726 light fighter version of the 720, nowhere near as quick or capable but quite suited to carrier operations.

The DH.117 was originally mooted for F.155T, but naval versions were investigated, so this is a possibility too.  Since I'm getting onto F.155T, what about a naval variant of the Fairey Delta II development (Delta III would have been too chunky, mores the pity)?  I've never found any details of naval developments but surely it would have been possible?

Simon.

[Zen]

Well the Saunders Roe where still going in 1960 when the axe fell on continued use of the SR.54 as a research machine. So in theory the SR.177 could have been restarted, it having only finaly died as it where in 1958.

Avros machine might have had difficulties, though they thought it could be operable from a carrier with more wing area.

Of the two Saunders Roe's machine is the better bet for carrier ops.

Sea Vixen is limited the fastest the designes for a supersonic machine go was around mach1.5 and that with major changes all over.

Fairey's Delta II fighter might have been posssible since it used a drooping nose for landing to improve visibility, so by extending the droop further and beefing up the structure it might be possible.