Submarine Cruisers/ Monitors

[jcf]

That's a good looking submarine and an interesting film.

Must admit that "display" area is  intersting as well. Not only the sub model, but the uniforms and the number of models and various other bits and bobs on the shelving behind.

Probably in one of Kaiyodo's pop
culture, figures and modelling museums. 

[NARSES2]

Cheers Jon 

[Rheged]

The M class submarines were to be monitors, but ended up as a group of three misfits.  M1 a monitor, M2 carried a Parnall Peto aircraft and M3 a mine layer.   M4 was broken up on the building slip..............................But you all knew this anyway!


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_M-class_submarine

[jcf]

Submarine diesels made massive strides between when X1 was commissioned and WWII. Her original pushing-the-limits engines had 3000hp. By the time she was taken out of service, 5000hp engines of the same dimensions were available. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that she could have performed as intended with an engine swap. As to the effectiveness of her guns in action, well we don't ultimately know because they didn't see action, but then you can say that about any weapon system that never saw actual combat.

An engine swap would take a lot of money and time in a drydock. Changing the engines would mean
that they'd have to disassemble the sub in order to do so. It's very doubtful that anybody would have agreed to such a questionable use of resources.
The theoretical rate of fire was not attainable because the shell hoist system was not reliable enough.
The guns required a crew of 58, on top of the usual complement of a large boat, but the gun system - turrets, magazines etc., took up so much room that accomodations for the crew suffered. A smaller space for a larger crew and everything required for the crew to live. Not a very bright move for a boat that was supposedly going to operate independently on long cruises in all weathers.

[RAFF-35]

There is also the Orzeł to consider as well. A Polish submarine,  built by the Dutch and operating for Britain until it was lost in 1940. It was fitted with a single 105mm bofors gun. Is there potential in whifworld for this to be up-gunned or used more effectively?

[Weaver]

105mm is not particularly large for a submarine gun, although the mounting certainly looks interesting.

[Andrew Gorman]

Another interesting dead end for submarines was the radar picket- big losses in WWII by surface ships detecting incoming kamikaze attack spurred the development  of radar picket submarines that could detect and then dive out of harms way.  A good introduction  is at:
https://www.eaglespeak.us/2006/12/sunday-ship-history-radar-picket-ships.html
These boats could tie in to the Operation Downfall group build if you want to plot and scheme ahead of time, but to me they are just not weird looking enough...

[Gondor]

Another interesting dead end for submarines was the radar picket- big losses in WWII by surface ships detecting incoming kamikaze attack spurred the development  of radar picket submarines that could detect and then dive out of harms way.  A good introduction  is at:
https://www.eaglespeak.us/2006/12/sunday-ship-history-radar-picket-ships.html
These boats could tie in to the Operation Downfall group build if you want to plot and scheme ahead of time, but to me they are just not weird looking enough...

Oh I don't know. You could always convert a Thresher-class cub into a radar picket and call it a Hay Rake class   

[jcf]

Another interesting dead end for submarines was the radar picket- big losses in WWII by surface ships detecting incoming kamikaze attack spurred the development  of radar picket submarines that could detect and then dive out of harms way.  A good introduction  is at:
https://www.eaglespeak.us/2006/12/sunday-ship-history-radar-picket-ships.html
These boats could tie in to the Operation Downfall group build if you want to plot and scheme ahead of time, but to me they are just not weird looking enough...

Oh I don't know. You could always convert a Thresher-class cub into a radar picket and call it a Hay Rake class   

Would it have Tine engines?

[Weaver]

Another interesting dead end for submarines was the radar picket- big losses in WWII by surface ships detecting incoming kamikaze attack spurred the development  of radar picket submarines that could detect and then dive out of harms way.  A good introduction  is at:
https://www.eaglespeak.us/2006/12/sunday-ship-history-radar-picket-ships.html
These boats could tie in to the Operation Downfall group build if you want to plot and scheme ahead of time, but to me they are just not weird looking enough...

Oh I don't know. You could always convert a Thresher-class cub into a radar picket and call it a Hay Rake class   

The Type 982 aircraft direction radar on the post-war British Type 61 frigates was literally nicknamed The Hayrake.

Aftmost aerial:

[RAFF-35]

Coming back to this idea. Would a submarine monitor make sense to operate with inland navies up rivers etc? They could travel along the river undetected and then pop up to fire a barrage at the target, then slipping away before artillery starts to respond.
River monitors typically have reduced armour at the guns range from 75mm - 152mm.
This is within the realms of both the X-1 and the Surcouf.

[jcf]

Coming back to this idea. Would a submarine monitor make sense to operate with inland navies up rivers etc? They could travel along the river undetected and then pop up to fire a barrage at the target, then slipping away before artillery starts to respond.
River monitors typically have reduced armour at the guns range from 75mm - 152mm.
This is within the realms of both the X-1 and the Surcouf.

They have reduced draft so they can go up a variety of rivers, a
submersible monitor renders that ability moot. The thing about rivers is that the depth can vary greatly, and can do so in short lengths of the river. They're not like very large lakes, inland seas or oceans. River navigation requires constant monitoring for depth, snags and underwater obstacles.

[NARSES2]

They have reduced draft so they can go up a variety of rivers, a
submersible monitor renders that ability moot. The thing about rivers is that the depth can vary greatly, and can do so in short lengths of the river. They're not like very large lakes, inland seas or oceans. River navigation requires constant monitoring for depth, snags and underwater obstacles.

Very much so Jon. You could see them being used for a single specific mission where a lot of planing would go into it. A bit like HMS Cambletown at St Nazaire and the Dambusters, but they'd almost certainly be suicide missions.

[Andrew Gorman]

Hopefully not flogging a dear horse, digging into steam submarines came up with the Imperial German Navy "Project 50" a steam "Diving ship" as a surface raider.  The stacks in a sail would counter ONE of the glitches the K-class faced.  Some idle long division and looking at parts reveal that the Lindberg Gato/Fleet sub at 1/240 scale has the about the right length to beam ratio to masquerade as a projekt 50 in 1/350 scale...  Sharpen and raise the bow a little, add something to make the external ballast tanks a little more pronounced and German looking... Hmmm.  I have two and a hull in the stash.
http://www.hisutton.com/German-WW1-Steam-Cruiser-Submarine.html