Author Topic: Whirlwind upgrade  (Read 2216 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline kerick

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4679
Whirlwind upgrade
« on: March 08, 2015, 03:26:15 pm »
Doing some web surfing caused me to encounter the following article.
http://www.airvectors.net/avwhirl.html
Nice descriptions of Westland projects in the 30's.
The interesting part was at the very end of the article the author mentioned seeing a single engine assymetric "Singlewind" at a model show. So he goes on to suggest "what ifs" of a P-38 style version, an F-82 Zwilling version and a P&W Wasp engined version.
Not often does an author wander into "whiffland" in a serious article. Nice surprise.
Now the questions are; Has anyone built one of these? and why didn't anyone consider P&W or Wright radials for the Whirlwind in RW? (It would have put the "whirl" in Whirlwind!)
There's someone in my head, but it's not me!

Offline pyro-manic

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 5729
  • Master Procrastinator
    • Me on Flickr
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2015, 03:51:10 pm »
I suspect switching to radials (far more likely to be Bristol engines than American ones) would require a lot of redesign work. And the result would be a rather ugly aircraft, IMO!
Some of my models can be found on my Flickr album >>>HERE<<<

Offline kerick

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4679
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2015, 05:21:06 pm »
I suspect switching to radials (far more likely to be Bristol engines than American ones) would require a lot of redesign work. And the result would be a rather ugly aircraft, IMO!

You may be right about the looks with radial engines. Might make an interesting whiff with some cowlings from a DC-3. The article said the few that were built did well as ground attack aircraft. A little more hp might have allowed it to carry more boom-booms.
There's someone in my head, but it's not me!

Offline NARSES2

  • Nick was always on his mind - just ask the Pet Shop Boys
  • Global Moderator
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 37140
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #3 on: March 09, 2015, 07:21:18 am »
Personally I think the Whirlwind with Merlin's or even Griffon's would have been a very interesting aircraft. However given the period we are talking about the available engines were already allocated for much needed fighters and the development time just wasn't available.

I've never considered radials I must admit and I don't think Petter would have either. Although a late war Centaurus powered version might be interesting  ;D

Given time it would have been interesting to see what Petter could have come up with, but for various reasons it wasn't to be.

That however hasn't stopped modellers on this site and elsewhere re-engining the aircraft. Dizzy has just recently completed one  indeed  :thumbsup:

Have to admit that the Whirlwind is right up their in my own personal list of good looking aircraft.
Decals my @r$e!

Offline Captain Canada

  • "but this time it's different. I was drunk when I agreed to it."
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 29051
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #4 on: March 09, 2015, 07:24:41 am »
Waspwind eh ? Funny name but nice concept.

I like that Wyvern T.3. Looks racy !

 :cheers:
CANADA KICKS arse !!!!

Long Live the Commonwealth !!!
Vive les Canadiens !
Where's my beer ?

Offline joncarrfarrelly

  • Bertie Bassett
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 7041
  • Turn that Gila-copter down!
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #5 on: March 09, 2015, 09:38:43 am »
Griffon and Centaurus would both be too big/heavy for the original Whirlwind airframe,
by the time they finished the redesign they'd have another Welkin, which basically is a
Merlin engined Whirlwind.

As to radials on the original Whirlwind, Petter being Petter (for good and bad) would probably
have insisted on a small diameter engine and pushed the engine builder for max output from
size using boost. Bristol Taurus is a Brit contender, R-1535 for a US candidate.

The first and second Gloster F.9/37 prototypes were engined with Taurus and Peregrine respectively,
so that would be a starting point for comparison, bearing in mind of course that Petter's version of
a Peregrine installation/cowling was very different from Gloster's approach. No doubt his approach
to using a Taurus would have been tighter.
 ;D



"Evil our grandsires were, our fathers worse;
And we, till now unmatched in ill,
Must leave successors more corrupted still."
Horace, 65BC - 8BC. Marsh translation.

Offline Flyer

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 2540
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #6 on: March 09, 2015, 10:35:04 am »
I think a Whirlwind with radials would look rather good. It would resemble a skinny T-tailed Grumman Skyrocket from what I'm picturing.
Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done. -Robert A. Heinlein

Offline kerick

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4679
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #7 on: March 09, 2015, 01:30:29 pm »
Whirlwind with Merlins comes out like a Dh Hornet. One nice looking aircraft in its own right.

Now I need a Whirlwind and DC-3 kit.
There's someone in my head, but it's not me!

Offline kitnut617

  • That's got his tum rumbling already just by the sound of it.
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 11181
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #8 on: March 09, 2015, 04:43:42 pm »
Whirlwind with Merlins comes out like a Dh Hornet.

Whirlwind with Merlins comes out like a Welkin --  ;)

But I've always said this is what I'd consider a ""super"" Whirlwind (you'll notice the wing is more Whirlwind than Hornet even if it does use Hornet engines and nacelles)

If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

Offline kerick

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 4679
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #9 on: March 09, 2015, 05:12:16 pm »
A Whirlwind with Merlins and the wings of a glider! Too bad it had the compressibility problems. Of course no one knew much about that phenomenon at the time.
There's someone in my head, but it's not me!

Offline rickshaw

  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 9679
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #10 on: March 09, 2015, 05:44:21 pm »
Welkin was though, as far as a combat aircraft a failure.  It's wings were too small for it's weight essentially and it was always on the verge of its critical mach number at higher altitudes, which was of course where it was meant to operate.  Didn't stop it from being a very nice looking aircraft though!  I have a profile-like book on the Welkin and the author was quite critical of Fairey's designers because of their unwillingness to listen to what the air tunnel results were warning them of!   Overall, an A grade aircraft for looks but beyond that?  A Z grade for useability in combat (it would keep stalling everytime you fired the guns, essentially).  [insert down turned thumb icon here]
How to reduce carbon emissions - Tip #1 - Walk to the Bar for drinks.

Offline PR19_Kit

  • Closeted Take That fan
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 29673
  • Whiffing since the 70s
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2015, 01:52:16 am »
See, Petter should have followed my dictum about longer wings.  ;D :lol:

But that actually wouldn't have helped as the Welkin ran into similar problems as the U-2 some years later in that its fastest speed when at altitude was also its slowest speed. Having one wingtip stalling and the opposite one in Mach buffet at the same time doesn't help when you're meant to be outmanoeuvring something that's got a LOT more wing area than you!
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline kitnut617

  • That's got his tum rumbling already just by the sound of it.
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 11181
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2015, 02:49:12 am »
Westland had a solution though, that was to increase the chord length by 20% but keeping the same depth. It would have solved the problem but by that time the Air Ministry had lost interest.  Not just with the aircraft but because the perceived threat at high altitude didn't happen ---

I am going to modify one of my Welkins with this 20% increased chord but probably shorted the wing span at the same time. What you get when you do the modification is a wing similar in shape to that Nancu I posted last time.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2015, 02:51:14 am by kitnut617 »
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike

Offline PR19_Kit

  • Closeted Take That fan
  • What-IF SIG
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 29673
  • Whiffing since the 70s
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #13 on: March 11, 2015, 05:26:17 am »
I've got a kit of the 'perceived threat' somewhere, the RS Models Ju-86R.

Not that I'm a Luftwaffe fan but an aircraft with wings THAT long just couldn't be ignored!  ;D :lol:
Any aircraft can be improved by fitting longer wings, and/or a longer fuselage

...and I'm not a closeted 'Take That' fan, I'm a REAL fan! :)

Regards
Kit

Offline kitnut617

  • That's got his tum rumbling already just by the sound of it.
  • Needs A Life Outside What-If
  • *****
  • Posts: 11181
Re: Whirlwind upgrade
« Reply #14 on: March 11, 2015, 04:34:33 pm »
Well the 'perceived threat' wasn't just the Ju-86R recce aircraft, there was a serious thought that the Germans might switch tactics and go to high altitude bombing ---- in the end it didn't materialize,  Which is what the Welkin and the Vickers 432 were really designed for, taking out the odd high altitude PR plane was the bonus --
« Last Edit: March 11, 2015, 04:38:12 pm by kitnut617 »
If I'm not building models, I'm out riding my dirtbike