What if

GROUP BUILDS => Themed Build Repository => Topic started by: AeroplaneDriver on January 10, 2019, 10:58:27 pm

Title: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 10, 2019, 10:58:27 pm
So this Marc the RAF will retire the Tornado after 40 years of faithful service.  It has served in near constant combat theaters since 1991, which is kind of a historic milestone in and of itself. 

So is anyone interested in a Tornado Themed Build starting on the day of the last RAF Tornado flight in late March and lasting 40 days to commemorate its 40 years of service?

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 10, 2019, 11:55:01 pm
Sounds a great idea, but with my record of un-completed GB entries I doubt I'd even get as far as swinging the wings..............
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Thorvic on January 11, 2019, 12:11:15 am
Actually its been in a combat theatre since its first deployment as it was the main strike aircraft for the RAF and Luftwaffe/Marineflieger to the end of the cold war, do they didn't use them in anger but they were on the highest level of readiness for war on  real front line where they were more than likely to be the target than the attacker !.

A good call and the RAF have been repainting aircraft in historical schemes ready for its finale.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 11, 2019, 01:09:28 am
Yes that's a decent idea. Off the cuff thoughts:

Canadian F.3s as a replacement for the Voodoos. Maybe they bought F-16s instead of F-18s to replace the F-104s & F-5s, but then needed something heavier for the domestic air-defence role. Note that Canada was in the MRCA programme at the start.

Australian GR.1s to fulfil the F-111 role after the latter was cancelled back in the 1960s. Maybe the Aussie ones would be hybrids with F.3 fuselages and Hindenburger tanks but GR.1 radomes/avionics to get the maximum range strike platform.

Other middle-eastern export customers apart from Saudi Arabia. Oman, Kuwait and Jordan would seem possibles. Oman actually decided to buy Tornados at one point but then cancelled.

Dutch GR.1s. The Netherlands was also in MRCA in the early days.

Dutch/Belgian/Danish/Norwegian GR.1s. Maybe the Starfighter/F-16 nations elected to buy fewer F-16s in the '70s and wait for the Tornado to fulfil their strike requirements?

JASDF Tornados. Japan considered the Tornado IRL before opting for the Mitsubishi F-2.

Spanish Tornados. What if Spain had joined Panavia in the way they later joined Eurofighter?

Taiwan and South Korean ECRs:  both showed an interest in real life.

More traditional recce version than the real GR.1A, with the main radar removed (I think they'd keep the TFR) and a nose full of cameras. The F.3 radome might be a suitable base for this, rescribed with a smaller TFR radome at it's tip, windows cut in the side and a canoe fairing for a front-facing one.

French GR.1s :o. Bought instead of Mirage 2000Ns as a trade-off for the Panavia nations buying Mirage 2000s/4000s as fighters to replace the F-4Ms, F-4F and F-104S.

South African GR.1s, bought to replace their Buccaneers in a timeline where there was no arms embargo.

Indian GR.1s, built under licence as a follow-on program to the Jaguar.

Comedy build #1: 1/48th fin on a 1/72nd fuselage, or 1/72nd fin on a 1/144th fuselage to honor the 'Fin' nickname.

Comedy build #2: take the spare fin from #1 and put it in a sea diorama, sticking straight up out of the water and heading for a swimmer in Jaws fashion.





Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: zenrat on January 11, 2019, 01:39:07 am
Yes that's a decent idea. Off the cuff thoughts:

Canadian F.3s as a replacement for the Voodoos. Maybe they bought F-16s instead of F-18s to replace the F-104s & F-5s, but then needed something heavier for the domestic air-defence role. Note that Canada was in the MRCA programme at the start.

Australian GR.1s to fulfil the F-111 role after the latter was cancelled back in the 1960s. Maybe the Aussie ones would be hybrids with F.3 fuselages and Hindenburger tanks but GR.1 radomes/avionics to get the maximum range strike platform.

Other middle-eastern export customers apart from Saudi Arabia. Oman, Kuwait and Jordan would seem possibles. Oman actually decided to buy Tornados at one point but then cancelled.

Dutch GR.1s. The Netherlands was also in MRCA in the early days.

Dutch/Belgian/Danish/Norwegian GR.1s. Maybe the Starfighter/F-16 nations elected to buy fewer F-16s in the '70s and wait for the Tornado to fulfil their strike requirements?

JASDF Tornados. Japan considered the Tornado IRL before opting for the Mitsubishi F-2.

Spanish Tornados. What if Spain had joined Panavia in the way they later joined Eurofighter?

Taiwan and South Korean ECRs:  both showed an interest in real life.

More traditional recce version than the real GR.1A, with the main radar removed (I think they'd keep the TFR) and a nose full of cameras. The F.3 radome might be a suitable base for this, rescribed with a smaller TFR radome at it's tip, windows cut in the side and a canoe fairing for a front-facing one.

French GR.1s :o. Bought instead of Mirage 2000Ns as a trade-off for the Panavia nations buying Mirage 2000s/4000s as fighters to replace the F-4Ms, F-4F and F-104S.

South African GR.1s, bought to replace their Buccaneers in a timeline where there was no arms embargo.

Indian GR.1s, built under licence as a follow-on program to the Jaguar.

Comedy build #1: 1/48th fin on a 1/72nd fuselage, or 1/72nd fin on a 1/144th fuselage to honor the 'Fin' nickname.

Comedy build #2: take the spare fin from #1 and put it in a sea diorama, sticking straight up out of the water and heading for a swimmer in Jaws fashion.

So that's Dizz's first week scheduled.  But what'll he do after that?
 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 11, 2019, 05:34:47 am

More traditional recce version than the real GR.1A, with the main radar removed (I think they'd keep the TFR) and a nose full of cameras. The F.3 radome might be a suitable base for this, rescribed with a smaller TFR radome at it's tip, windows cut in the side and a canoe fairing for a front-facing one.



........and longer wings.  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 11, 2019, 07:02:32 am
Well it certainly fits into what the Theme Build category was initially devised for  :thumbsup:

I'm more than happy to set the board up for you if you decide to go ahead with it (you'd need to let me know the dates) and it would be "self running" as far as I'm concerned, mainly because I think I'll be quite heavily involved in the next Group Build.

Chris
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Hobbes on January 11, 2019, 07:11:20 am
Hm, I just started a Tornado build that would fit nicely...
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Steel Penguin on January 11, 2019, 10:22:07 am
there was my plan for the spare one I picked up dirt cheap
MRCA    Malaren Racing Classic Airframe
the Tornado air racing version, centreline camera pod for the TV viewers, possibly tanks, nice high vis colours    :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: kitbasher on January 11, 2019, 10:50:00 am
Great idea.  I'd join in but 40 days would be too short for me.  Three months and I'd be in.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Lord_Voyager on January 11, 2019, 10:55:58 am
I've never built for your group... I think this would be a great place to start! I've also not built a Tornado either... but I like the idea of Canadian markings...
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Nils on January 11, 2019, 12:41:25 pm
count me in  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Captain Canada on January 11, 2019, 12:50:36 pm
Cool. I could see trying to build one. I remember falling in love the first time I saw a pic of one...that wrap around camo  :wub:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 11, 2019, 01:21:02 pm
What would you guys think of starting immediately (I too just started a Tornado) and running up to the RAFs Tornado retirement date, planned for late March. Gives a bit over 2 months. 
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Hobbes on January 12, 2019, 12:59:33 am
Sounds good to me,
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 12, 2019, 02:51:20 am
Great idea.  I'd join in but 40 days would be too short for me.  Three months and I'd be in.

Yea  :rolleyes: and I'd still end up moving the thread  ;) ;D
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 12, 2019, 02:53:43 am
What would you guys think of starting immediately (I too just started a Tornado) and running up to the RAFs Tornado retirement date, planned for late March. Gives a bit over 2 months.

OK I'll set the threads up early next week, probably Tuesday, as I'm a little busy at the moment.

As far as I know her retirement date is end March ? Anyone know the official one as I've seen a couple of dates mentioned in the press ?
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 12, 2019, 07:36:40 am
What would you guys think of starting immediately (I too just started a Tornado) and running up to the RAFs Tornado retirement date, planned for late March. Gives a bit over 2 months.

OK I'll set the threads up early next week, probably Tuesday, as I'm a little busy at the moment.

As far as I know her retirement date is end March ? Anyone know the official one as I've seen a couple of dates mentioned in the press ?


I haven't seen an official date either.  We could just make it run until March 31, and extend it if the Tornado hasn't retired by then.  Thanks Chris!
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: kitbasher on January 13, 2019, 08:44:22 am
Right then, help please.  Plan A or Plan B, that is the question.  To help me out can someone confirm that I correctly recall seeing on the forum a few years back a 617 Sqn GR4 commemorative scheme build?  Dark Earth/Dark Green top night/black bottoms?

If so then it looks like Plan I need an F3!
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 13, 2019, 10:22:09 am
I've never seen a GR.4 in that scheme but it sounds great!!!! 
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 13, 2019, 10:23:30 am


If so then it looks like Plan I need an F3!

I have an Italeri 1/48 F.3 still in shrink wrap.  Open to trade offers in 1/48!
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: kitnut617 on January 13, 2019, 10:42:39 am
Right then, help please.  Plan A or Plan B, that is the question.  To help me out can someone confirm that I correctly recall seeing on the forum a few years back a 617 Sqn GR4 commemorative scheme build?  Dark Earth/Dark Green top night/black bottoms?

If so then it looks like Plan I need an F3!

Are you sure you're not thinking of this aircraft

(http://village.photos/images/user/8f3973c9-3f0e-4b54-80e2-017121c0bf9f/53d369bd-4365-46e5-8012-745ec58b109e.jpg)

and then there's this one too

(http://village.photos/images/user/8f3973c9-3f0e-4b54-80e2-017121c0bf9f/702bf9b5-0ff6-4afc-a3ca-29bb9de05553.jpg)
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 13, 2019, 12:48:40 pm

Right then, help please.  Plan A or Plan B, that is the question.  To help me out can someone confirm that I correctly recall seeing on the forum a few years back a 617 Sqn GR4 commemorative scheme build?  Dark Earth/Dark Green top night/black bottoms?


That rings a bell with me, but it was an RW aircraft IIRC.

I was at Lossie for 617's 50th anniversary celebrations and they were converting to GR4s at the time, but at least one of their GR1s was painted up in that scheme I think. I've just spent a while Googling it but no joy as all the pics are either current 70th anniversary schemes or 50th anniversary schemes for sinking the Tirpitz.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: kerick on January 13, 2019, 01:08:51 pm
I like the idea of a Canadian version with big drop tanks patrolling the tundra looking for Bears. Probably would have been a better choice than F-18s. Ill need to research the paint colors used on Voodoos, Hornets and Tornadoes
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: TheChronicOne on January 13, 2019, 01:20:02 pm
HMMMMMM.....    perhaps a USN version to take over where the SLUFF left off....  (OR WHATEVER)    hmmmmmm   ....   :wacko:

Oklahoma ANG? We have tons of Tornadoes here, what's a few more?

OR....     A kitbash with the American B-45.  ;D ;) ;) ;)   
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: kitbasher on January 13, 2019, 01:51:26 pm
Kit and Kitnut617 thanks but nope, not thinking of any of those, nor the 'bomber Command' Hawk.

Deffo a whiffed Tonka.  There were 'real' schemes but were around the current grey scheme (fin markings, basically).

Have Googled but to no avail.

EDIT: found it! https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235038451-617sqn-tornado-whiff/.  I'd have done it a bit differently but there you go, already been done.

Plan B it is then!  Just need an F3 from somewhere - they seem difficult to find and I#'m no going to shell out a fortune on one!
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 13, 2019, 03:07:13 pm
Oh that Dambuster is nice!! 

As for an F.3, see my earlier reply...unopened Italeri 1/48 F.3 available for a swap here!  Mostly interested in other 1/48 Allied/NATO types, but starting to look at armor too. 
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: The Wooksta! on January 13, 2019, 03:52:35 pm
I'm in but I'm going to be delightfully subversive...

Note to self:  start digging in the wardrobe...
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 13, 2019, 04:52:19 pm
I like the idea of a Canadian version with big drop tanks patrolling the tundra looking for Bears. Probably would have been a better choice than F-18s. Ill need to research the paint colors used on Voodoos, Hornets and Tornadoes

It's probably the most 'natural' alternative application for it. Very similar to the RAF mission of protecting NATO navies in the North Atlantic from the predations of Backfires. Other than America itself, I can't think of anywhere else that had (in the timeframe of the F.3) an exclusively long-range, high-intensity threat.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: The Wooksta! on January 13, 2019, 06:02:54 pm
Canada, Holland and Belgium were all in on the project at the beginning.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 13, 2019, 06:14:12 pm
Canada, Holland and Belgium were all in on the project at the beginning.

When I wrote that Canada was the 'natural' what-if user, I was talking about the ADV specifically. The Netherlands and Begium would probably only have been interested in the IDS version: their fighter requirements were better served by the F-16 or F-18. The Canadians might have been interested in the IDS if they were looking to renew their committment to providing part of the NATO tactical nuclear strike force.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 13, 2019, 07:56:52 pm
For anyone looking for more inspiration, one of the articles I read while researching my USAF WW build mentioned that South Korea was potentially interested in a SEAD Tornado around the same time as the USAF...

And one more idea to toss out that I love is one that I am so disappointed I didn't see in real life last year....a Tornado painted in WWI colors for the RAF 100 celebrations.  Someone missed the boat on that one.  Would have been gorgeous in real life. 
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: kitbasher on January 13, 2019, 10:45:03 pm
Oh that Dambuster is nice!! 

As for an F.3, see my earlier reply...unopened Italeri 1/48 F.3 available for a swap here!  Mostly interested in other 1/48 Allied/NATO types, but starting to look at armor too.

A kind offer sir, but I'm a dyed in the wool 1/72er.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 14, 2019, 06:32:03 am
Right R.A.F. retirement date is 31/3/19

I'll set the necessary boards up shortly

Chris
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 14, 2019, 07:18:00 am
You'll have to wait a little bit I'm afraid lads.

I've managed to screw the setting up of the boards and Geoff/Thorvic will have to bail me out.

Apologies but I shouldn't have tried to do it while my mind was on other things.

Chris
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Lord_Voyager on January 14, 2019, 08:33:12 am
Being a wee bit of a newby to GB's, how does one actually start and record said GB?
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 14, 2019, 08:45:28 am
Being a wee bit of a newby to GB's, how does one actually start and record said GB?

As a Themed Build this is a bit more informal than a full on Group Build.  Start anytime, it's open now.  Shooting for an end date coinciding with the last RAF Tornado flight, but again, it's flexible so end of March is probably the real end. 

Once Chris sets the board up for it, just jump in with a thread for your build. 

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 14, 2019, 10:35:38 am
Being a wee bit of a newby to GB's, how does one actually start and record said GB?

It's exactly as Aeroplane Driver says. Theme Builds do not have such tight rules as those which tend to apply to the Group Builds.

So as far as this one is concerned you can start your build now and aim to have it finished by the 31st March.

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 14, 2019, 10:39:25 am
Gentlemen

I don't want my "cock up" to delay the start of this Theme Build so can I suggest that if you want to start your builds that you put them in the normal Current and Finished Projects - Aircraft thread and I will move them over to the appropriate section once Geoff/Thorvic has dug me out of my hole.

Can I apologise for the problems, it's purely down to me.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 14, 2019, 10:47:08 am
Right some very quick and dirty "rules" for this TB.

This TB concerns the Panavia Tornado in all its forms, so as long as you start with a Panavia Tornado you can do what you want with it.

To run from Now until 31/3/19. If Tornado's retirement is delayed then the build may be extended.

There will be no moderators as such. I will keep a quiet eye on the thread and any questions can be answered by a consensus of the members taking part.

That's it, short and I hope simple.



Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 14, 2019, 02:47:29 pm

EDIT: found it! https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235038451-617sqn-tornado-whiff/.  I'd have done it a bit differently but there you go, already been done.

Plan B it is then!  Just need an F3 from somewhere - they seem difficult to find and I#'m no going to shell out a fortune on one!


That one on BM looks like the one I saw at Lossie, but that had it's demarcation line right at the bottom of the fuselage.

There's a couple of Airfix F3s going on eBay at the mo, for less than 10 bid price so far. But there's also some Italeri and Hasegawa ones going for RIDICULOUS prices!  :banghead:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: kerick on January 14, 2019, 09:17:45 pm
Hobby link japan has some.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 14, 2019, 11:42:23 pm
A few more ideas, some building on Weaver's comments:

Jordan was mulling 10 each of ADV and IDS
Kuwait was interested in the mid-80s but got themselves invaded and switched to US hardware
Oman ordered eight ADV but later rejigged the order to Hawks
Greece was a prospect after a tech-transfer spat with us.gov that put the F-16 purchase in jeopardy
Malaysia was a target customer for the ECR, four, with eight or 10 cheaper IDS to fill-out a squadron
Thailand was considering 12 IDS around 1990 to go with their zoo of aircraft types
Turkey did order 40 IDS but lapsed


Some not-real-World ideas:
Algeria, in before Su-24
Finland instead of Hornet
Morocco
Portugal, second-hand IDS from Germany
Singapore
Swiss IDS
Swedish IDS
Taiwan maritime scheme  :wub:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Dizzyfugu on January 15, 2019, 03:18:52 am
I'd be in, too. I think I have an Italeri 1:72 Tornado IDS somewhere in the stash - either for a simple whif operator (Canada, India, Oman...?), or for some light cosmetic changes and "something different".
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: zenrat on January 15, 2019, 03:41:37 am
I'm bidding on an Airfix 1/72 MRCA on the Bay of Evil.  I built one as a youth so it has memories for me (mostly of fingerprints in Airfix Signal Red gloss enamel that took forever to dry).

If I get it i'll join in the fun.  Non-swinging wings and a bigger fin might be in order.

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 15, 2019, 05:58:52 am
Well the only Tornado I have in the stash is a resin Hawker Tornado, so if I can get my mojo back can anyone recommend which 1/72 scale kit I should try and get hold of ?

Not bothered about the version as, if I get into it, I'll probably do it as the Fleet Air Arm version.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Mossie on January 15, 2019, 06:09:36 am
Revell for the IDS and Italeri for the ADV, Chris.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: kitnut617 on January 15, 2019, 06:31:15 am
As I was 'counting' kits over the last few days, I was looking at some of the Tornados I have. Got an Airfix MRCA, a Revell GR4 (or should say a weapons set with the GR4 thrown in for good measure), a couple of other ones and then I found my Airfix 617 Sqn Anniversary set, it has a 1/48 Tornado in it -- and I had bought all these extras for it -----  I also found I had bought some 1/72 wings with extended slats and flaps --

But now I'm getting distracted from my AV-22 build ----   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Lord_Voyager on January 15, 2019, 07:19:48 am
I'm primarily a 1/48 scale builder but I'll build in any scale...

I think I'll peruse my local shop and see what he has in stock - let fortune favor the bold and let chance guide my choice.

A Canadian option is an exciting choice... Our F-18's are a drab couple of greys but the tail art is striking... Before that we did the green\grey and before that, natural metal with a red and white cheat line... Perhaps a search and rescue bird in yellows, orange and red?

The world is my colorful option...
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Steel Penguin on January 15, 2019, 11:53:31 am
I will through a couple more ideas out there

tiger squadron,  Bagpuss,  or spotted / clouded leopard

biplane, upper and lower wings maintain swing, either syncroed, or independently, stores under the bottom / over the top

enjoy  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 15, 2019, 11:55:35 am
A few pretty camos for which I haven't yet concocted points-of-divergence.  These would be a lot more feasible as an Austere Tornado variant, with simplified ground-attack avionics instead of the full TFR-strike kit.  And perhaps the rear-seat panelled over.

Iraq
Peru, perhaps instead of the Fitters though not competitive on price!
Brazil, instead of the AMX.  Maybe they found lots of silver in the Amazon.
Nigeria, just for that wraparound green camo.  Pretty unlikely but then so were the Jaguars!

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 15, 2019, 05:58:03 pm
During the project definition phase Germany and Italy actually wanted a shorter-range, single-seat version of the IDS, since their experience was primarily with the F-104G/S. The RAF, coming from Canberra and Buccaneer experience and having a general preference for two-seat aircraft for high-workload missions, steadfastly demanded a longer-range two-seater. The eventual compromise was to use the same, two-seater airframe, a bit smaller than the RAF would have liked, with the option of the extra fuel tank in the fin which only the RAF used.

If you fancied some conversion work, you could try to make a German or Italian single-seater from an alternate timeline where they got their way, either based on the contemporary artwork or your own interpretation. IIRC, it wasn't much different to the two-seater in outline.

Alternatively, you could make an optimised RAF version with a longer fuselage. The obvious thing to do would be to put an IDS nose and IFR probe on a ADV fuselage, but maybe in an alternative timeline, they were still going for TSR.2-style range, and ended up with an even longer fuselage still...

Another alternative: the AFVG which preceded the MRCA placed more emphasis on the air-to-air role, so what if that had carried on into the MRCA? It shouldn't be that hard to give a Tornado airframe bigger air intakes and exhausts for more high-altitude oomph.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 15, 2019, 11:09:24 pm
During the project definition phase Germany and Italy actually wanted a shorter-range, single-seat version of the IDS

Hard to imagine it being much shorter-ranged!  Underwing tanks were permanent features.  I remember an F-111 nav being interviewed and he was very dismissive of the Tornado's range having done an exchange tour, he said the pilot stared at the fuel gauge whereas in the 111 they barely glanced at it on a typical mission.

The IDS had 6,500 litres of internal fuel, the F/A-18A had 6,250 despite being several tonnes lighter and an F-4E had 7,020.  The F-111 had... over 19,000 litres  :o
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Dizzyfugu on January 16, 2019, 12:38:23 am
Concerning the short range you also have to remember that the Tornado was primarily designed for the Cold War turned hot in the central European theatre. Any tactical targets would not have been too far away - the Tornado was a tsrike aircraft, not a true bomber. Besides, the F-111 is/was a much bigger aircraft.

However, and ADV with the longer fuselage, combined with the blunt IDS nose, could be a solution...?

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: zenrat on January 16, 2019, 01:08:40 am
I will throw a couple more ideas out there

tiger squadron,  Bagpuss,  or spotted / clouded leopard...

...enjoy  :thumbsup:

Yes.  Do it...
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 16, 2019, 02:09:52 am

Alternatively, you could make an optimised RAF version with a longer fuselage. The obvious thing to do would be to put an IDS nose and IFR probe on a ADV fuselage, but maybe in an alternative timeline, they were still going for TSR.2-style range, and ended up with an even longer fuselage still...


I'm working on it, and have been for 6 months now.....  :banghead: ;D ;)
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 16, 2019, 03:39:14 am
During the project definition phase Germany and Italy actually wanted a shorter-range, single-seat version of the IDS

Hard to imagine it being much shorter-ranged!  Underwing tanks were permanent features.  I remember an F-111 nav being interviewed and he was very dismissive of the Tornado's range having done an exchange tour, he said the pilot stared at the fuel gauge whereas in the 111 they barely glanced at it on a typical mission.

The IDS had 6,500 litres of internal fuel, the F/A-18A had 6,250 despite being several tonnes lighter and an F-4E had 7,020.  The F-111 had... over 19,000 litres  :o

Sorry, didn't make myself clear:

The Germans and Italians wanted a smaller, shorter-range aircraft than the British did.

The Germans and Italians wanted a single-seater while the British wanted a two-seater.

The eventual compromise aircraft had a small fuselage with limited fuel (German/Italian preference) with two seats (British preference) and the option of an extra tank in the fin to partially allay British concerns about range.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Thorvic on January 16, 2019, 04:30:53 am
During the project definition phase Germany and Italy actually wanted a shorter-range, single-seat version of the IDS

Hard to imagine it being much shorter-ranged!  Underwing tanks were permanent features.  I remember an F-111 nav being interviewed and he was very dismissive of the Tornado's range having done an exchange tour, he said the pilot stared at the fuel gauge whereas in the 111 they barely glanced at it on a typical mission.

The IDS had 6,500 litres of internal fuel, the F/A-18A had 6,250 despite being several tonnes lighter and an F-4E had 7,020.  The F-111 had... over 19,000 litres  :o

Sorry, didn't make myself clear:

The Germans and Italians wanted a smaller, shorter-range aircraft than the British did.

The Germans and Italians wanted a single-seater while the British wanted a two-seater.

The eventual compromise aircraft had a small fuselage with limited fuel (German/Italian preference) with two seats (British preference) and the option of an extra tank in the fin to partially allay British concerns about range.

In effect a bit of a sows purse, it was too small and too limited to be a genuine TSR2 replacement for the RAF and was too big and complex for the Fiat G-91/F-104G Starfighter replacement the Germans and Italians wanted. The smaller single seat Panavia 100 was aimed in the Strike Fighter role, A larger Panavia 300 model was considered to meet the RAF needs but came to nothing and the 200 which became Tornado is the compromise solution that was finally built.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 16, 2019, 06:10:33 am
Revell for the IDS and Italeri for the ADV, Chris.

Cheers mate  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 16, 2019, 06:41:56 am
So the Italians eventually went ahead with the AMX, and the Germans did the Alpha Jet.  And the Brits never really had enough range in the IDS.  And the UK didn't get F-15s because we had to make-up the promised numbers on the Tornado.

That has all rather demotivated me :(
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: kitnut617 on January 16, 2019, 09:13:44 am
And the UK didn't get F-15s because we had to make-up the promised numbers on the Tornado.

Well what the references say is that the Government were concerned with the UK losing valuable aero designers and engineers from their pool if they went with the F-15. They came up with 'it didn't have the range' excuse to not go with it. 'course the F-15's with conformal and two (three) big tanks that are used today don't seem to have any problem with range, and if you follow the arguments over on SPF about how the F-35 doesn't compare to the F-15 in range. it just makes you wonder.

At the time, the RAF/Ministry hadn't looked at the conformal tank option on the F-15, even though it was just being tested by McDD on a F-15B at the very same time. The tank was their answer to having to delete a fuselage tank the rear seater took up.

For what it's worth, this is my take on a RAF Eagle, it has a Tornado F.3 nose and conformal tanks. Went with Brit engines too.

(http://village.photos/images/user/8f3973c9-3f0e-4b54-80e2-017121c0bf9f/3845277c-7583-4eae-8656-994db02ec113.JPG)

(http://village.photos/images/user/8f3973c9-3f0e-4b54-80e2-017121c0bf9f/13999ac7-66a7-40b8-933f-006459f36f15.JPG)
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 16, 2019, 12:51:07 pm
Let's not let the Tornado naysaying cloud the fact that it served for 40 years and acquitted itself quite well in combat in multiple theaters for most of those 40 years. 

I think probably the WE.177 and Sea Eagle were the only normal Tornado weapons never fired in anger during its career.  It started with dumb bombs and JP233s in Iraq and ends its service with the RAF deploying the most advanced small guided air-to-surface missile in service, and lets not forget long range strike missions with Storm Shadow I the very recent past.  Shame the F.3 never got a 'kill' but still it's hard to not consider the IDS one of the great success stories of modern combat aviation...

On a different note I can now report with confidence that the Revell 1/48 F.3 is an absolute PIG of a kit.   :banghead:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: kerick on January 16, 2019, 05:57:24 pm
Im thinking about an ADV in 1/72nd scale in Canadian markings. Did a little research and found a deep discussion on britmodeler about which was better, the Hasegawa or Italeri. Everyone agreed dont bother with the Monogram kit.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 16, 2019, 08:14:30 pm
Monogram didn't make an ADV.  I've not done the Italeri !/72 but the Hase isn't bad for its vintage.  Not perfect by any means, but not bad.  I think the only really great Tornado kit ever is the Revell 1/72 GR.1. 
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Dizzyfugu on January 17, 2019, 12:11:08 am
Since the Hasegawa ADVs are normally quite pricey, the Italeri (=Tamiya) ADV have IMHO the better price-value ratio. There's also the Matchbox ADV, which has an individual mold. I haven't built it personally, but it is supposed to be a decent offering, too.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 17, 2019, 01:31:01 am
Chris Gibson's Battle Flight has a lot to say about the decision process that led to the Tornado ADV being chosen.

Key points against the F-15 were:

1. At the time the decision had to be made (mid 1970s), many in the UK and US predicted that F-15 production would end by 1980, well before the UK could afford to start buying them. The F-16 lobby were constantly attacking the F-15 as too big and too expensive at the time, and seemed to be getting considerable traction for this view.

2. The standard F-15's unit price was quite good, but the cost of adapting it to UK requirements, with a UK-spec rear cockpit and possibly UK radar (the RAF were dubious of the US radar's ECCM capabilities), and refuelling probe would have pushed it up into Tornado ADV territory very quickly.

3. The F-15's higher fuel consumption would require a 30-40% increase in the size of the supporting tanker force.

4. UK authorities became aware of a multi-front push by McDD, who had approached multiple European governments and aerospace companies with superficially attractive deals for F-15 local production. While these deals might have resulted in the relevent air forces getting good equipment at good prices in the short term, the long-term effect would be to reduce the entire European aerospace industry to a licence-production operation with no R&D or design capability of it's own, thus making Europe permanently dependent on the US. This was considered both militarily and politically unacceptable.


Regarding Tornado numbers, 165 ADVs for the RAF had been factored into the MRCA costings by this point. Cancelling them would have resulted in either the RAF having to buy more IDS than it needed, or pay 130m in cancellation costs, or accept a much higher unit price for all Tornados, or persuade the Italians and Germans to reduce their orders in proportion. The last two option would in turn carry the risk of the other nations pulling the plug on the whole program, and destroying Britain's credibility as a collaborative partner for future international programmes.


Interestingly, I came up with the idea, some years ago, of the French buying Tornados for the strike role instead of Mirage 2000N+Ds, in exchange for the Panavia partners buying Mirage 2000+4000s for their fighter roles, and I put that in the list of ideas I posted earlier. Battle Flight reveals that a similar offer was in fact made by the Frecnh in the mid-1970s, but the French aircraft in question was the Dassault ACF, which was subsequently cancelled. The offer didn't get much traction because it only concerned the French Force de Frappe (i.e. the Mirage IVs), which only amounted to about 50 aircraft, which wasn't much of a quid-pro-quo for the hundreds of fighters needed by Britain, Italy and Germany. To make my idea work, the Mirage 2000/4000 proposal would have had to come along significantly earlier, which doesn't seem impossible, given the number of dead-ends and cancelled projects the French suffered in the late '60s/early '70s. Had they cut to the chase and adopted 'big, modern delta-Mirages' as the solution instead of spending considerable time on abortive VG and conventional layouts, then they might have been able to make an attractive offer within the Tornado ADV 'decision window'.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 17, 2019, 03:43:32 am
To follow-up on some earlier suggestions, digging into Flight archives for 1981 / 82 shows that BAe were targeting Greece, Spain and India in order to get Tornado unit costs down.  So those ones weren't too left-field!

Given US State Dept sentiment at the time, supplying India might have required a change of radars away from the TI units.  I think all the other avionics were US-safe.

Background: Ferranti and Elliott were originally working on the mapping and TFR but after Germany was awarded responsibility for the radar selection they promptly chose TI ( September 1971 ) and that was that.  But it was fairly naive because that immediately jeopardised exports to India, Pakistan and all of South America.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 17, 2019, 09:39:54 am
The Italeri ADV goes together quite nicely, but like almost all Tonka kits suffers from being horizontally split, with the almost certainty that it'll need a fair amount of PSR for sure.

The tailplane pivot bar is very fragile and for sure it'll break at some point during assembly, sad to say.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 17, 2019, 11:20:01 am
A contact of mine at Marham says that 9 Squadron disband on March 14th at 1230 pm.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Dizzyfugu on January 17, 2019, 11:22:24 am
The Italeri ADV goes together quite nicely, but like almost all Tonka kits suffers from being horizontally split, with the almost certainty that it'll need a fair amount of PSR for sure.

The tailplane pivot bar is very fragile and for sure it'll break at some point during assembly, sad to say.

Agree with everything.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Lord_Voyager on January 17, 2019, 11:30:14 am
So I managed to pick up this pretty girl at my local hobby shop... I'm wondering if anyone can illuminate as to the original maker? It's not Revell...

https://www.scalemates.com/kits/revell-04617-tornado-ecr-tigermeet--103222#
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Gondor on January 17, 2019, 01:41:02 pm
A contact of mine at Marham says that 9 Squadron disband on March 14th at 1230 pm.

That wouldn't happen to be one of the best ATC's in the RAF would it?  :rolleyes:

Gondor
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 17, 2019, 02:26:08 pm
A contact of mine at Marham says that 9 Squadron disband on March 14th at 1230 pm.

That wouldn't happen to be one of the best ATC's in the RAF would it?  :rolleyes:


Actually no, but she probably knows anyway.  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 17, 2019, 08:12:46 pm
Coincidentally, this Youtube video popped up on my home page. It's a documentary from 1978 about Canada's quest for a new fighter aircraft, and it mentions the Tornado as one contender: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTk-Z0Th_SA
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 17, 2019, 10:09:40 pm
I am going to be seriously disappointed if nobody produces a Canadian Tornado for this TB!
 
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Dizzyfugu on January 18, 2019, 12:28:44 am
I am considering one.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: zenrat on January 18, 2019, 03:24:25 am
I just "won" an Airfix MRCA on the Bay of Evil.
$7 (I was the only bidder) plus postage.

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Doug K on January 18, 2019, 10:39:13 am
This is making me think. I havent built a Tornado since an ancient MRCA when I was a kid.

They never did replace the Canberra T17A....  :wacko:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 19, 2019, 01:57:55 am
If inspiration is needed, February's Aviation News is a Tornado special edition
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 19, 2019, 03:13:10 am

If inspiration is needed, February's Aviation News is a Tornado special edition


Beat me to it, I bought it y'day and pretty good it is too. Mostly about operations rather than the techie stuff.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 19, 2019, 08:53:56 am
There's a Japanese-edition 1:72 Airfix MRCA on eBay UK at present at TWA QUID as we'd say here.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Airfix-Japanese-issue-MRCA-PANAVIA-TORNADO-1-72-RARE/163486861533

I particularly like:

"Tube of Japanese glue included"
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: zenrat on January 20, 2019, 02:27:50 am
There's a Japanese-edition 1:72 Airfix MRCA on eBay UK at present at TWA QUID as we'd say here.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Airfix-Japanese-issue-MRCA-PANAVIA-TORNADO-1-72-RARE/163486861533

I particularly like:

"Tube of Japanese glue included"


And its RARE!!!!!!!!!

I'd snap it up if I were you...

 :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Gondor on January 20, 2019, 03:37:04 am
This is available right now, ideal for those in the UK

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Revell-1-72-Tornado-GR-1-RAF/123603812237?_trkparms=aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D14bc1e801d3e4449ab02a7a23968cd3e%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D14%26sd%3D123603812237%26itm%3D123603812237&_trksid=p2481888.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A881e15e1-1ca7-11e9-b9d5-74dbd1806626%7Cparentrq%3A6b0b95f21680abc1d24b0095ffeae32d%7Ciid%3A1

Gondor
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 20, 2019, 05:27:54 am

I particularly like:

"Tube of Japanese glue included"

I bet that's got HM Customs "glued"  :angel: to their monitors watching for UK based bids  ;)
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 20, 2019, 07:40:48 am

And its RARE!!!!!!!!!

I'd snap it up if I were you...

 :rolleyes:

 ;D

It's like those sellers who write GET YOURSELF A BARGAIN! and then set a reserve price...
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 20, 2019, 08:51:56 am
Can I enter my half built Tornado F5 in the Theme Build, or has it gone too far already?

http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php/topic,45643.msg820158.html#msg820158 (http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php/topic,45643.msg820158.html#msg820158)
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 20, 2019, 09:47:43 am
Can I enter my half built Tornado F5 in the Theme Build, or has it gone too far already?

http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php/topic,45643.msg820158.html#msg820158 (http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php/topic,45643.msg820158.html#msg820158)


As a Themed Build as opposed to a GB with rules, Id say the more the merrier.   Bring it on! 
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 20, 2019, 02:02:51 pm
Great, thanks.  :thumbsup:

I'll get back on it.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Dizzyfugu on January 20, 2019, 11:46:13 pm
Nice to see it eventually finished.  :thumbsup:

Some inspiration from my own vault: en ex-German Tornado IDS in Czech service:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7660/27024644361_030f1714ea_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Hb5nfa)
1:72 Panavia Tornado IDS, '3305 Yellow/NA-2B '29'' (former 43+59 of the German Luftwaffe) of the 20th fighter-bomber regiment, Česk Letectvo (Czech Air Force, CzAF), Nměť nad Oslavou AB, summer 2005 (Whif/modified Italeri kit) (https://flic.kr/p/Hb5nfa) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dizzyfugu/), on Flickr


...and Tornado F.5's sister ship, the F.6, from the recent RAF Centenary GB:

(https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1969/31114862178_9c78ff1682_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/PpvNv1)
1:72 Panavia Tornado F.6; aircraft ZF205/CG of the Royal Air Force 5 Squadron; RAF Cranwell, summer 2018 (Whif/modified Italeri kit) (https://flic.kr/p/PpvNv1) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dizzyfugu/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: zenrat on January 21, 2019, 12:42:09 am

And its RARE!!!!!!!!!

I'd snap it up if I were you...

 :rolleyes:

 ;D

It's like those sellers who write GET YOURSELF A BARGAIN! and then set a reserve price...

I will never understand those who set a reserve on Evil-Bay.  Why not just set the amount you want to get as a minimum as the starting amount?

My MRCA is on the way.  I have a couple of possible wing doners in mind but no ideas on a colour scheme or user.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 21, 2019, 06:53:07 am
Right Geoff has sorted my screw up out (cheers mate  :thumbsup:) so I'll look at getting some basic organisation done tomorrow. Won't do it now as my brain is not quite in the right place - tried to get to many things done this morning and I never could multi task  :banghead:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Gondor on January 21, 2019, 10:51:46 am
Right Geoff has sorted my screw up out (cheers mate  :thumbsup:) so I'll look at getting some basic organisation done tomorrow. Won't do it now as my brain is not quite in the right place - tried to get to many things done this morning and I never could multi task  :banghead:

That sounds like a sketch from Spitting Image..... NARSES'S Brain is missing......   ;D :rolleyes:

Gondor

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: TheChronicOne on January 21, 2019, 11:22:24 am
One of the worst episodes of Star Trek was about that......   ;D
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 22, 2019, 03:46:02 am
Another idea.

Let's say the RAF had a bit more money, so when they retired the Tornado F.3 from the air defence role in favour of the Typhoon, they didn't just scrap them, but adapted some of them to two other roles:


1. Defence Suppression.

This role was trialled IRL for the 2003 Gulf War (but not, in the event used). F.3s were converted to 'EF.3s' by adding two ALARM missiles on GR.1 pylons refitted under the fuselage, and re-activating the outer wing pylons to carry BOZ and PHIMAT pods. Let's therefore say that they decided to continue this role with a more extensively adapted airframe. The radar and the remaining gun are removed and an internal ESM/ECM system fitted, with forward and side-facing aerials under the original radome (or in a new 'tin' nose with multiple dielectric panels) and with rear and side-facing aerials in a fin-top pod. The outer wing pylons could carry BOZ pods or ALARMS, and ALARM has also been carried on GR.4 inboard and Sidewinder pylons. GR.4s could also carry three ALARMs under the fuselage: I don't know why the EF.3 seemed to be restricted to two, but this could be addessed in the upgrade.


2. Reconnaissance.

The GR.1A has always been responsible for the low-level recce role and is very good at it, so they were the natural choice to carry the new RAPTOR pod in real life. However, this pod is a LOROP system who's performance is improved by being carried at altitude, and IIRC, there were some mutterings about the GR.1's altitude performance not being good enough to get the best out of it. The F.3 has better high-altitude performance and range, so the RAF takes some of the redundant airframes and converts them to carry RAPTOR instead. The airframe mods don't need to be anything like as extensive as for SEAD, but since the SEAD aircraft are getting a new EW system anyway, the RAF might plausibly go one step further and fit both EW and RAPTOR to all the retained airframes, thereby giving a homgenous and flexible force. They only had eight RAPTOR pods anyway, so separate recce and SEAD squadrons would be awkward.


I'd see an optimal force of two squadrons of dual-role SEAD/LOROP aircraft ('Tornado EFR.5s?') retained in service, with the rest of the F.3 force RTP'd (cannibalised) to provide a low-cost spares source. They could probably keep such a force going well into the 2020s, i.e. beyond the GR.4 retirement date, which might be particularly relevent since I read that the Typhoon cannot carry RAPTOR since it's physically too big for it... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 22, 2019, 07:30:17 am
Right I've moved a couple of builds to the dedicated thread and am just about to set up a discussion thread over there, so if anybody would like me to move anything they have posted here over there then let me know.

Chris
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 23, 2019, 02:17:43 am
Right I've moved a couple of builds to the dedicated thread and am just about to set up a discussion thread over there, so if anybody would like me to move anything they have posted here over there then let me know.

Chris

Why not move this entire thread into the dedicated board?
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 23, 2019, 02:32:11 am
Recce discussion reminded me that the RAF originally intended to develop a pod for the Tornado, parallel to the Italian-German pod.  The latter had a pair of Zeiss camera stations and an IR linescanner so was actually a bit more useful than the RAF's eventual GR.1A mod
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 23, 2019, 02:44:44 am
Recce discussion reminded me that the RAF originally intended to develop a pod for the Tornado, parallel to the Italian-German pod.  The latter had a pair of Zeiss camera stations and an IR linescanner so was actually a bit more useful than the RAF's eventual GR.1A mod

The GR.1A had an IR Linescan unit and two oblique IIR cameras with straight-to-digital image storage. Not sure, therefore, how the GR.1A was 'less useful' than the other nations' recce equipment. The German ECR variant had internal cameras and/or a linescan unit in place of guns.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 23, 2019, 05:33:45 am

This role was trialled IRL for the 2003 Gulf War (but not, in the event used). F.3s were converted to 'EF.3s' by adding two ALARM missiles on GR.1 pylons refitted under the fuselage, and re-activating the outer wing pylons to carry BOZ and PHIMAT pods.


I've just seen a pic of that trials installation somewhere, perhaps in the Flypast magazine Tornado special issue?
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Dizzyfugu on January 23, 2019, 05:53:14 am
(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DuXi40TWxNs/T7pis0tGQSI/AAAAAAAAA2Y/8turvmkbLR4/s1600/Tornado+F3+ALARM.jpg)
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 23, 2019, 06:14:17 am
Airfix even did a 1/48th scale kit of it:

(https://images.ecosia.org/v0OW3P25KFxrxGHojhs89Zj2Lz8=/0x390/smart/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.scalemates.com%2Fproducts%2Fimg%2F8%2F6%2F5%2F936865-11185-57-pristine.jpg)
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 23, 2019, 06:14:45 am
A very interesting pic that, taken from the other side to the one I saw.

What are the two stores on the starboard outer pylon though? The lower one looks like a 'winder with its forward fins missing.

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 23, 2019, 06:29:41 am
A very interesting pic that, taken from the other side to the one I saw.

What are the two stores on the starboard outer pylon though? The lower one looks like a 'winder with its forward fins missing.

Not sure which you mean, but the stores are:

Fuselage stations: ALARM
Sidewinder pylons: ASRAAMs
Inner wing pylons: 230 gal GR.1 drop tanks (NOT the usual 'Hindenburger' tanks seen on the F.3)
Starboard outer: PHIMAT chaff/flare pod
Port outer: BOZ chaff flare pod

I don't know why it carried two different chaff/flare pods.


Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 23, 2019, 06:31:25 am
Right I've moved a couple of builds to the dedicated thread and am just about to set up a discussion thread over there, so if anybody would like me to move anything they have posted here over there then let me know.

Chris

Why not move this entire thread into the dedicated board?

I did consider it, but didn't go forward with it for a couple of reasons. Neither of which seems particularly valid this afternoon  :-\
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 23, 2019, 06:35:43 am
It's the ASRAAM I didn't click on, they DO like 'winders no forward fins of course.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Gondor on January 23, 2019, 10:43:01 am
A very interesting pic that, taken from the other side to the one I saw.

What are the two stores on the starboard outer pylon though? The lower one looks like a 'winder with its forward fins missing.

Not sure which you mean, but the stores are:

Fuselage stations: ALARM
Sidewinder pylons: ASRAAMs
Inner wing pylons: 230 gal GR.1 drop tanks (NOT the usual 'Hindenburger' tanks seen on the F.3)
Starboard outer: PHIMAT chaff/flare pod
Port outer: BOZ chaff flare pod

I don't know why it carried two different chaff/flare pods.

That's because the BOZ pod is actually carrying a Towed Radar Decoy

Gondor
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 23, 2019, 04:23:36 pm
A very interesting pic that, taken from the other side to the one I saw.

What are the two stores on the starboard outer pylon though? The lower one looks like a 'winder with its forward fins missing.

Not sure which you mean, but the stores are:

Fuselage stations: ALARM
Sidewinder pylons: ASRAAMs
Inner wing pylons: 230 gal GR.1 drop tanks (NOT the usual 'Hindenburger' tanks seen on the F.3)
Starboard outer: PHIMAT chaff/flare pod
Port outer: BOZ chaff flare pod

I don't know why it carried two different chaff/flare pods.

That's because the BOZ pod is actually carrying a Towed Radar Decoy

Gondor

Ahhhhh that makes sense - cheers. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 24, 2019, 01:35:39 am
Those ALARM mountings are remarkably cumbersome; big generic pylon and then specific ALARM adapter.  Must be draggy.

Starboard outer is even worse!  I wonder how many Mach points that knocks off.

Can't they get someone to design nice integrated pylons?  I remember a company doing that for Sidewinder and making a mint.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Gondor on January 24, 2019, 02:48:15 am
Those ALARM mountings are remarkably cumbersome; big generic pylon and then specific ALARM adapter.  Must be draggy.

Starboard outer is even worse!  I wonder how many Mach points that knocks off.

Can't they get someone to design nice integrated pylons?  I remember a company doing that for Sidewinder and making a mint.

From what I remember those mounts were only used on the under fuselage pylons, when mounted either where the ASRAM or fuel tanks are they just used a shoe

Gondor
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 24, 2019, 02:58:04 am
I think there's some issue with firing missiles straight forward off the belly pylons. The ALARM adaptors are angled downwards slightly, and the Brimstone ones even more so. The belly pylons are very shallow and were originally intended mainly for bombs, so perhaps missiles fired straight from them are at risk of hitting the forward fuselage?


Brimstones on a GR.4 - look at the angle, especially the rear ones!
(https://images.ecosia.org/Auj4JYjU8BhszBEGSJLPgoKz6LI=/0x390/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thinkdefence.co.uk%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2014%2F05%2FRAF-Tornado-GR4-Brimstone-and-ALARM.jpg)


Maximum ALARM fit on a GR.1:
(https://images.ecosia.org/QzDuxe6z3adA3gV94VzS2q1sCKs=/0x390/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ausairpower.net%2FNATO%2Ftornado-alarm-1.jpg)

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 24, 2019, 07:01:15 am
Do they actually fire them direct off the pylons?

My employers made a LOT of money developing a plastic programmer used on drop test machines to simulate the firing pulse of the cartridges that the pylons have to project the missiles clear of the pylon after the drop.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 24, 2019, 07:37:29 am
I can't find any info to confirm it, but I THINK the ALARM fires off a rail, not ejected before ignition.  The pylon doesn't seem to have the warning triangle usually found on UK aircraft if the pylon has the pyrotechnics to eject the store.  Plus it was carried on the shoulder pylons in place of Sidewinders, indicating a rail launch. 
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Lord_Voyager on January 24, 2019, 07:48:31 am
So I have the revel Fin... 1/72 scale and it's lovely... but I need suggestions for a color scheme.

Green and grey seem overdone... Grey is just, blah.

Anyone?
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Rheged on January 24, 2019, 07:59:11 am
So I have the revel Fin... 1/72 scale and it's lovely... but I need suggestions for a color scheme.

Green and grey seem overdone... Grey is just, blah.

Anyone?

Assume that the  USAF did adopt the Tornado as the F24 .  This allows you USAAF pre 1939 blue and yellow as their Tornado retirement special.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 24, 2019, 08:14:36 am
So I have the revel Fin... 1/72 scale and it's lovely... but I need suggestions for a color scheme.

Green and grey seem overdone... Grey is just, blah.

Anyone?

Assume that the  USAF did adopt the Tornado as the F24 .  This allows you USAAF pre 1939 blue and yellow as their Tornado retirement special.

That would be beautiful. 

I was a little surprised no RAF types were painted in WW1 schemes for the centennial last year.  Maybe an opportunity to correct that oversight?
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 24, 2019, 10:04:02 am

I was a little surprised no RAF types were painted in WW1 schemes for the centennial last year.  Maybe an opportunity to correct that oversight?


We didn't have enough aeroplanes I expect. :(
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 24, 2019, 02:18:29 pm

I was a little surprised no RAF types were painted in WW1 schemes for the centennial last year.  Maybe an opportunity to correct that oversight?


We didn't have enough aeroplanes I expect. :(

Sad state of affairs.  😞
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 24, 2019, 11:10:16 pm
So I have the revel Fin... 1/72 scale and it's lovely... but I need suggestions for a color scheme.

Green and grey seem overdone... Grey is just, blah.


Luftwaffe Afrika mottle
RAF grey-green but with Arctic white distemper
RAF sand-and-chocolate
Danish bronze-green
QinetiQ gloss black
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 25, 2019, 02:00:25 am

And its RARE!!!!!!!!!

I'd snap it up if I were you...

 :rolleyes:

 ;D

It's like those sellers who write GET YOURSELF A BARGAIN! and then set a reserve price...

I will never understand those who set a reserve on Evil-Bay.  Why not just set the amount you want to get as a minimum as the starting amount?

My MRCA is on the way.  I have a couple of possible wing doners in mind but no ideas on a colour scheme or user.

Because a lot of buyers rank-order their searches by price or price+postage with lowest first. That means that if you set a start price of 0.99 with a reserve of 10 instead of a start price of 9.99, you go straight to the top of their list.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Mossie on January 25, 2019, 02:49:37 am
RAF grey-green but with Arctic white distemper
RAF sand-and-chocolate
QinetiQ gloss black

First one's real world, both variations of white over green and white over grey:
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235006835-raf-winter-camouflage/
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/234983118-finishedthe-other-tims-revell-172-tornado-gr1-arctic-cam-13-sqn-raf/

Second one would be good as an alternative to desert pink.

Third one, I'd wondered about putting an F.3 in an earlier A&AEE raspberry ripple scheme.  A GR.1 wore Raspberry ripple and F.3 was used by A&AEE but in standard camouflage so might be a bit of a head scratcher.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: zenrat on January 25, 2019, 03:10:01 am

And its RARE!!!!!!!!!

I'd snap it up if I were you...

 :rolleyes:

 ;D

It's like those sellers who write GET YOURSELF A BARGAIN! and then set a reserve price...

I will never understand those who set a reserve on Evil-Bay.  Why not just set the amount you want to get as a minimum as the starting amount?

My MRCA is on the way.  I have a couple of possible wing doners in mind but no ideas on a colour scheme or user.

Because a lot of buyers rank-order their searches by price or price+postage with lowest first. That means that if you set a start price of 0.99 with a reserve of 10 instead of a start price of 9.99, you go straight to the top of their list.

Which gets them noticed, but does it help them sell?
(rhetorical)

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 25, 2019, 04:54:34 am
First one's real world, both variations of white over green and white over grey:
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235006835-raf-winter-camouflage/

That's neat, I hadn't seen a Tornado in white before. 

Now, what if the twin-stickers had been delivered to the TTTE in trainer colours...?  Red-and-white or silver-with-dayglo?  Hmmm
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: NARSES2 on January 25, 2019, 06:55:40 am

I was a little surprised no RAF types were painted in WW1 schemes for the centennial last year.  Maybe an opportunity to correct that oversight?

Standard RFC/RAF schemes could be easy to do, some of the more spectacular dazzle schemes could be interesting to do  ;)

Got me thinking of a Luftwaffe machine in lozenge and I have plenty of lozenge transfers  :mellow:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 25, 2019, 07:48:36 am

I was a little surprised no RAF types were painted in WW1 schemes for the centennial last year.  Maybe an opportunity to correct that oversight?

Standard RFC/RAF schemes could be easy to do, some of the more spectacular dazzle schemes could be interesting to do  ;)

Got me thinking of a Luftwaffe machine in lozenge and I have plenty of lozenge transfers  :mellow:

This one would make a Tornado look interesting...

(https://www.scalemates.com/products/img/9/6/7/1112967-12192-52-720.jpg)
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 25, 2019, 07:51:51 am

Now, what if the twin-stickers had been delivered to the TTTE in trainer colours...?  Red-and-white or silver-with-dayglo?  Hmmm


Or silver with yellow stripes?
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 25, 2019, 11:23:44 am
Your username just made me think of a GR.1A in PRU Blue.  Completely inappropriate for the low-level role of course, but we'll not mention that.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: PR19_Kit on January 25, 2019, 11:37:37 am

Your username just made me think of a GR.1A in PRU Blue.  Completely inappropriate for the low-level role of course, but we'll not mention that.


And why not? With a RAPTOR pod and extended wings you'd be right on the money.  ;D ;D :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 25, 2019, 02:01:20 pm
First one's real world, both variations of white over green and white over grey:
https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/235006835-raf-winter-camouflage/

That's neat, I hadn't seen a Tornado in white before. 

Now, what if the twin-stickers had been delivered to the TTTE in trainer colours...?  Red-and-white or silver-with-dayglo?  Hmmm

Might look a bit like the prototypes:

(https://images.ecosia.org/Ll2RVh2q3pOW1OpLHECztt4LLX0=/0x390/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fwww.panavia.de%2Ffileadmin%2Fimages%2Fnews%2F40th_anniversary_tornado_prototype_paint_740px.jpg)

(https://images.ecosia.org/QA_6cdBHgQ3lkCOoN68_rSQPtX0=/0x390/smart/http%3A%2F%2Fimg.wp.scn.ru%2Fcamms%2Far%2F492%2Fpics%2F60_15.jpg)
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: AS.12 on January 26, 2019, 12:28:50 am
That first photo really emphasises how compact was the Tornado.  Actually a few centimetres shorter than a Jaguar or an F/A-18.

Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: Weaver on January 26, 2019, 02:07:37 am
Here's a thought: what if the RAF never imposed it's 'only one display team' rule back in the 1960s (or subsequently rescinded it), but instead allowed each 'community' to form one display team each? You'd then have a Gnat/Hawk display team, a Jaguar display team, a Harrier display team, a Phantom display team, a Lightning display team and a Tornado display team (possibly two teams: one for the GR.1 and one for the F.3). They wouldn't all be the same size: the Red Arrows would be the 'national' team with nine aircraft, and the others would have less aircraft, the bigger and more expensive they are (maybe four or five for the Phantom/Tornado).

If the object was to help sell British hardware, then maybe they wouldn't have a Phantom team, and the Jaguar and Tornado teams would be international. That would be 'interesting' to organise: the Tornado one would be relatively easy if you ran it out of the TTTE, but the Jaguar one might get 'frosty' when French attitudes to Jaguar sales became clear... :o

Anyway, for the purposes of this TB: why not do your Tornado in 'Team Tornado' display team colours. :thumbsup:




That first photo really emphasises how compact was the Tornado.  Actually a few centimetres shorter than a Jaguar or an F/A-18.

Yes, that needs to be born in mind when comparing it unfavourably to the F-111, Su-24 or F-15E. It might get spoken of in the same breath as those aircraft, but it's really much smaller. In terms of weight and size, it's more akin to a slightly enlarged MiG-27 with two-seats and fancier avionics.
Title: Re: Tornado Themed Build?
Post by: zenrat on January 26, 2019, 07:14:38 pm
I'm toying with an ARDU Fanta Can theme for my non-swinging MRCA (basically the prototype scheme with orange instead of red and RAAF roundels).  But I also want to load it up with a shed load of ordinance so I might go a different way.