What if

GROUP BUILDS => In The Navy G.B. 2020 => Topic started by: PR19_Kit on March 10, 2020, 08:49:57 am

Title: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 10, 2020, 08:49:57 am
As a backup model for this 'In the Navy' GB I looked out a Pegasus Vought XF5U-1 Flying pancake kit that I had stashed away in The Loft. While this is a kit of the same aeroplane as the famous Hasegawa/Tamiya Pancake kit, it's nowhere near the same quality, or so I'm told as I've never even set eyes upon an unbuilt Hasegawa kit!  :o

While the Pegasus Pancake has the most exquisite engraved panel line detail the outline is pretty darn crude, with LOTS of flash and thick sprue gates abounding. It's also moulded in four main parts, the top and bottom sections are split along the centre chord line, which makes assembly somewhat difficult to say the least. In addition there are NO assembly instructions whatsoever! Apparently the builder is expected to know the aeroplane well enough to be able to figure out where all the parts go. Luckily I've spent some time studying the thing so I did know where most went, but it's a bit disconcerting.

My backstory for this build has the US Navy realising that such an unorthodox aircraft would take some difficulty in learning to fly the service examples and so they contracted Vought to develop a two-seat trainer version and that's what I'm modelling.  ;)

To this end I needed a suitable canopy of course, as well as chopping out space for a second seat behind the trainees seat, and so I started to carve the forward upper quarter of the main mouldings apart.

Instant disaster!  :banghead:

Pegasus' styrene has always been a bit on the heavy-duty side and this was no different. So much so that the moulding shattered into three parts when I started to saw it! A similar thing happened to the forward lower moulding when I tried to file off the extensive sprue gates, and so I've reluctantly abandoned this build as a dead loss. It would have been difficult building it stock, let alone with giving it an extra seat.

I'm not giving up the idea though, and I'll be looking out for a Hasegawa pancake kit as soon as I can get an internet link.

Oh, you want to know what I'm using for the canopy?  ;D

After looking at two-seat versions of the Jaguar, the Mirage III, the F-104, the F-100 and the Javelin I finally settled on the one for the F-89H Scorpion that had donated its wing tip missile pods for my Canberra F10 conversion.

[Later] I found a Hase Pancake kit on eBay and I bought it, so this build will be continuing in the near future hopefully.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: AndrewF on March 10, 2020, 10:59:36 am
I'll be interested to see how this turns out, given my (Single) Pancake drawn efforts a while ago... ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: kitnut617 on March 10, 2020, 12:45:13 pm
I've got a 60% built Hasegawa one in the stash, I had started it years ago before our house move, but it's the usually story, got packed up and it's still there. I've also got the Sword earlier pancake, V-173 IIRC.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: NARSES2 on March 10, 2020, 01:50:55 pm
Here's my Hasegawa one Kit. Built for the 2016 In The Navy GB

https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=42440.30 (https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=42440.30)

Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: loupgarou on March 10, 2020, 03:55:05 pm
When Tophe sees the title "Double pancake", I am sure he will get ideas...  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: ChernayaAkula on March 10, 2020, 05:25:59 pm
Don't know about Tophe, but when I read "Double Pancake", I thought of a biplane.  :blink:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Weaver on March 10, 2020, 06:10:39 pm
When you said "Double Pancake", I though for a moment that you were doing a model of the little-known EF5U-1 AWACS version of the flying pancake... ;)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: ericr on March 11, 2020, 12:31:21 am
 ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: AndrewF on March 11, 2020, 12:41:14 am
Plenty of good ideas on this thread already!
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Nick on March 12, 2020, 09:07:33 am
I saw 'Double Pancake' and thought of butter and syrup dripping over the sides....  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: kitnut617 on March 12, 2020, 09:09:18 am
I saw 'Double Pancake' and thought of butter and syrup dripping over the sides....  ;D

And don't forget the sausages ---  ;D  (pigs in a blanket)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Tophe on March 12, 2020, 09:20:47 am
When Tophe sees the title "Double pancake", I am sure he will get ideas...  ;D
Ahem, I already drew a double-tail pancake:
(http://www.kristofmeunier.fr/vought%20f5u_h.jpg)
But also I made a double-pancake fake photograph if I remember well, I am looking for it.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Tophe on March 12, 2020, 11:16:24 am
But also I made a double-pancake fake photograph if I remember well, I am looking for it.
I have not found it, so I made the picture again, from my asymmetric pancake model of the past:
(http://www.kristofmeunier.fr/B12_04-zwilling.jpg)
(double pancake in a double plate) ;)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 14, 2020, 08:36:33 am
I've got the Hasegawa kit now, and it's a ZINGER compared too the Pegasus version.

Construction will commence as soon as I get home after piggybacking on my friend's wifi.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 14, 2020, 12:19:40 pm
Here's the basic Pancake kit in all it's wonderful weirdness.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3023/hhzTDR.jpg)


And inside the box it's equally weird, how nice.   ;D

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1957/qWPKf9.jpg)


Luckily all the steps I'd planned for the Pegasus version will work for this one too.

Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: ChernayaAkula on March 14, 2020, 02:51:17 pm
Hmm. Attach some legs and you'd have a wonderful mecha frog/toad.  :wacko: :rolleyes:  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Librarian on March 14, 2020, 04:24:03 pm
Quite the beast. Got the Kittyhawk kit somewhere but never quite got around to fitting Pegasus-type engines inside with nozzles :wacko:

I read somewhere that when sailing into wind (X-knots??), the plane would just lift straight up. Boone Guyton said something about his belief that the vibration issues would have shaken the plane apart with a very short airframe life.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: The Wooksta! on March 14, 2020, 04:38:22 pm
I did the Hasegawa kit in 1996 as a FAA bird wearing Gannet markings - it was definitely at Telford that year on the SIG stand and I had several people convinced we'd operated it.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 14, 2020, 08:44:21 pm
The testbed for the Pancake, the lower powered V-173, did almost take-off vertically.

Its take-off run was something less than a couple of fuselage lengths IIRC. I can't remember where I read it, maybe an Aeroplane Magazine article some years ago.

I was thinking about replacing the P&Ws with turboprops, it's already got a perfect intake configuration, I'd just have to sort out an exhaust setup somehow.

I recall your FAA Pancake Lee, that looked the business for sure.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: kitnut617 on March 15, 2020, 06:22:28 am
I've got the Hasegawa kit now, and it's a ZINGER compared too the Pegasus version.

The Hasegawa Pancake was originally produce by Hobby Spot U as a resin kit. This Japanese company only produced three kits and only lasted four years (1989-93). Hasegawa re-issued two of them, the Bell X-1 and the Pancake.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: The Wooksta! on March 15, 2020, 05:02:40 pm
I think the Japanese version of the Komet that Hasegawa released was also by Hobby Spot U - IIRC there was a marking on the box.  It definitely wasn't a Hasegawa tooling.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: kitnut617 on March 15, 2020, 05:19:29 pm
The only other kit Hobby Spot U made was a Nakajima Kikka, according to the big book.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 21, 2020, 02:15:59 pm

The Hasegawa Pancake was originally produce by Hobby Spot U as a resin kit. This Japanese company only produced three kits and only lasted four years (1989-93). Hasegawa re-issued two of them, the Bell X-1 and the Pancake.


While searching the sprues for some of the tiny parts I found that it actually has 'Hobby Spot U' moulded on the runners, in quite large lettering too!  :banghead:

The only places that mention Hasegawa are the instructions and the box.

I'm scratching up the tandem cockpit at the mo, which isn't as straightforward as I thought it would be, but if it was easy everyone would be doing it, right?
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: kitnut617 on March 21, 2020, 02:51:58 pm
I was looking at the instruction sheet for the Italeri/Testors BAe T.45 Goshawk which has similar markings as the T-28 you were asking what the 'red' was. I have the Testors boxing of the T-45 and it says the red is Testors 2719 Italian Red, FS31302 or Humbrol 60.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: joncarrfarrelly on March 22, 2020, 05:45:47 pm
Were are you adding the second seat? Immediately behind the aft cockpit bulkhead are the
oil tanks and the cross-shafting connecting the engines.

(https://oldmachinepress.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/vought-xf5u-powerplant.jpg)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 22, 2020, 06:14:40 pm
The cross shaft is going behind the front seat and in front of the rear instrument panel.

And as the production F5Us had turbine engines they didn't need such large oil tanks……………  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: DogfighterZen on March 22, 2020, 06:52:45 pm
I like where this is going!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: zenrat on March 23, 2020, 12:26:47 am
So, given the props are connected I presume your production version will be able to shut down one engine and loiter?
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 23, 2020, 01:31:45 am

So, given the props are connected I presume your production version will be able to shut down one engine and loiter?


Actually no, or maybe yes.  ;D

For the aerodynamics of the Zimmerman wing to work both props have to be going the whole time, so at least one engine needs to be running.

But as the engines are the dreaded T40s (hardly any aeroplane that used them was trouble free....) one half of each engine could be shut down in the cruise, a bit like a Gannet.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: zenrat on March 23, 2020, 02:18:58 am
But Kit, the diagram Jon posted clearly shows the props are linked by gears and shafts so it would be possible, possibly with the addition of a clutch (?), to run both props on one engine.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 23, 2020, 05:14:55 am
Oh sure, you could, but it'd balance out the loads on the connecting shaft if you just shut down one half of each engine pair.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: joncarrfarrelly on March 23, 2020, 10:28:55 pm
The cross shaft is going behind the front seat and in front of the rear instrument panel.

And as the production F5Us had turbine engines they didn't need such large oil tanks……………  ;D

So the rear seat will be where the fuel tank is on the XF5U-1?

Quote
But as the engines are the dreaded T40s (hardly any aeroplane that used them was trouble free....) one half of each engine could be shut down in the cruise, a bit like a Gannet.
:o
Living on the edge.  ;D

Cutaway of the proposed Allison turbine version.
(http://up-ship.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/cvs-10021_v-341_airplane_assembly_inv.jpg)


Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 24, 2020, 05:30:39 am

So the rear seat will be where the fuel tank is on the XF5U-1?


That's why it's going to have a couple of under wing tanks...……...


Living on the edge.  ;D


Absolutely!

That cutaway is VERY interesting, I didn't actually know they planned to make a turboprop version, but it was a logical development. Which engine is that anyway? It doesn't look much like the T-38, which was half the dreaded T-40, but I can't find another Allison engine of the period.

It's interesting that the exhausts go right to the tail, and they seem to negate the use of the pitch control flap things that the piston engined version had.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Weaver on March 24, 2020, 06:16:02 am
I'm tempted to suggest kippering the whole thing to make it wider, fitting longer cross-shafts, and then using a side-by-side two-seat cockpit.

Probably too late now though.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: rickshaw on March 24, 2020, 06:22:45 am
Why not simply fit a longer nose to accept another cockpit in front of the existing one?
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 24, 2020, 06:47:01 am
As H said, it's too late now. I've already cut away large chunks of the 'fuselage' top decking, and it's looking quite good.

But then I would say that, wouldn't I?  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: joncarrfarrelly on March 24, 2020, 09:43:33 pm
That cutaway is VERY interesting, I didn't actually know they planned to make a turboprop version, but it was a logical development. Which engine is that anyway? It doesn't look much like the T-38, which was half the dreaded T-40, but I can't find another Allison engine of the period.

Here's what Bill Pearce postulates:
"While it is not entirely clear which engine was selected, the engine depicted in a technical drawing closely
resembles the 2,200 hp (1,641 kW) General Electric T31 (TG-100) turboprop."

From his entry on the Flapjack:
https://oldmachinepress.com/2017/02/05/vought-xf5u-flying-flapjack/
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Weaver on March 25, 2020, 06:25:26 am
Why not simply fit a longer nose to accept another cockpit in front of the existing one?

I'm not sure, but I THINK the clearance between the two props is less than the width of the cockpit proper or at least so close to it that stretching it would be dangerous. They're about level with a point where the taper to the nose has already begun.

(http://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/4/0/4/9/2/9/a4699399-179-XF5U%20scale.jpg?d=1331438553)

Image from here: https://forum.warthunder.com/index.php?/topic/185928-xf5u-flying-flapjack/

Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: kitnut617 on March 25, 2020, 06:53:57 am
As H said, it's too late now. I've already cut away large chunks of the 'fuselage' top decking, and it's looking quite good.

But then I would say that, wouldn't I?  ;D ;)

But you could have the rear cockpit sitting on top of all the equipment that's there giving the instructor the best possible view of what's happening, sort of a precursor to the modern day trainer arrangement.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 25, 2020, 07:12:49 am
I've already had both those ideas in mind, and if I can get the sawn down Jaguar canopy to work, the rear seat will be higher.

I'm thinking of chopping off the tips of the props too, as most turboprops of the era, and all aircraft that flew with the T40 engine, had clipped prop blades. Unfortunately Mt. Zimmerman died some years back so I can't ask him if that would have negative effects on the vortex production.  ;)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: joncarrfarrelly on March 25, 2020, 10:16:01 am
Clearer version of the Vought drawing of the XF5U-1, from the Vought Heritage site (click for full size).
More Vought product drawings here: http://www.vought.org/photo/html/pdown.html
(http://www.vought.org/photo/html/pimages/down/1532_035_22.gif)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: joncarrfarrelly on March 25, 2020, 10:31:37 am
I'm thinking of chopping off the tips of the props too, as most turboprops of the era, and all aircraft that flew with the T40 engine, had clipped prop blades. Unfortunately Mt. Zimmerman died some years back so I can't ask him if that would have negative effects on the vortex production.  ;)

While they look like four-bladed props, in reality the flapping props are each a
pair of two-bladed teetering props mounted one in front of the other. The teetering action
is like that of a Bell helicopter rotor assembly. The design was required to avoid vibration
caused by unsymmetrical airflow and to resist heavy blade loads at high angles of attack.
Cutting off the tips may screw with that.


(https://oldmachinepress.files.wordpress.com/2017/01/vought-xf5u-side.jpg)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: kitnut617 on March 25, 2020, 11:47:42 am
I've already had both those ideas in mind, and if I can get the sawn down Jaguar canopy to work, the rear seat will be higher.

What about a Hawk or Tucano canopy ---
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 25, 2020, 11:55:31 am

Cutting off the tips may screw with that.


That's why I wanted to talk to Zimmerman.  ;D



What about a Hawk or Tucano canopy ---


Maybe, but I had the Jag canopy from a crunched FROG kit already.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 30, 2020, 06:31:51 am
I've worked out how long the two seater cockpit needs to be, and chopped a much longer hole in the upper wingelage (wing-fuselage…) of the Pancake and I've added a rearwards extension onto the kit cockpit assembly. With a bit of fettling it looks as if it'll work quite well with the Jag canopy too.

The bang seats are a couple of F4 seats I just happened to have handy, they're about the right size and they look good. The RW pancake didn't have an ejection seat but I'm sure the USN would have insisted when it came to service use.

I've also completed one of the wildly complex prop assemblies too, but it's still in its Blu-Tak jig so pics of that will have to wait.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/3363/Scm34a.jpg)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Tophe on March 30, 2020, 06:54:17 am
Good! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 30, 2020, 08:37:30 am
And here's the first prop. There's TEN parts in that assembly!  :o

The blades really need to be jigged up while the glue is drying, but the real thing could have them at all sorts of angles apparently, so maybe it wouldn't matter too much if they weren't all at 90 degrees to each other.


(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/1814/UwUK1f.jpg)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Rheged on March 30, 2020, 09:16:04 am
It's a useful JMN-boggling fact!!
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 30, 2020, 01:00:13 pm
Going great guns on the Pancake now, the cockpit's glued in place, and walled in from the underside, and I've just glued the top and bottom halves of the airframe together.  ;D

I've been wanting to do that for ages, but it wasn't possible while I had the cockpit to sort out.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6145/Son0gG.jpg)

Here's the dual seats, instructor in the rear somewhat higher than the pupil in the front, as in all good trainers.


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/7266/OqdlAN.jpg)

Here's all the scratchbuilt 40 thou. underframe. It's not that neat but no-one will be able to see it anyway, and it's strong enough to hold everything in place.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: JayBee on March 30, 2020, 02:08:21 pm
He11s Donkeys Kit what kind of canopy are you going to fit over that ?
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 30, 2020, 02:23:47 pm
The windscreen from the kit married to the rear from a trainer Jaguar, plus a scratchbuild fairing at the very rear, with LOTS of PSR I suspect.

All mounted at a slant of course.....
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 30, 2020, 03:51:47 pm
Joined the top and bottom halves, added the tailplanes and the engine intake cowlings. Both the last two items are going to need some PSR, they don't fit all that well. :(

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5663/6ZRcfv.jpg)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Dizzyfugu on March 31, 2020, 12:56:27 am
That's looking interesting - I am curious about the canopy, the rear seat looks quite tall!
I love the concept, though, too sad that the F5U kit is so hard to find (and at sensible prices).
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 31, 2020, 04:28:25 am
It IS tall, the instructor has to be able to see over the pupil's head at the astonishing angles of attack the Pancake could fly at.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Captain Canada on March 31, 2020, 05:04:10 am
Very cool. I like the way this is turning out !
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: AndrewF on March 31, 2020, 05:09:17 am
It IS tall, the instructor has to be able to see over the pupil's head at the astonishing angles of attack the Pancake could fly at.

Either that or the instructor has realised that the guy in the front seat is useless, and has decided to eject...
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2020, 05:20:20 am
It has the added advantage that if the pupil really screws up, the instructor can scoot forwards a bit and kick him in the side of the head... :wacko:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 31, 2020, 05:22:57 am

It has the added advantage that if the pupil really screws up, the instructor can scoot forwards a bit and kick him in the side of the head... :wacko:


Just like a Jaguar, Tucano or any other modern trainer.  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Rheged on March 31, 2020, 07:23:42 am

It has the added advantage that if the pupil really screws up, the instructor can scoot forwards a bit and kick him in the side of the head... :wacko:


Just like a Jaguar, Tucano or any other modern trainer.  ;D

I understand that if the pilot made errors in a Sea Vixen, the navigator in his black hole could bite his ankles!
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 31, 2020, 09:46:38 am
Just like my Mirage F1P, the Pancake is being PSR'd to death right now. The intake cowlings don't fit at all well, and I'm not quite sure how to sand them down as it's such a narrow gap around them and the prop shaft housings. In the meanwhile I'm sanding the taiplane joints, which aren't that wonderful, and the extended fins too.

(See the yet to be published, but already written, backstory for the extended fins.  ;))
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Scotaidh on April 01, 2020, 12:51:55 am
Joined the top and bottom halves, added the tailplanes and the engine intake cowlings. Both the last two items are going to need some PSR, they don't fit all that well. :(

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5663/6ZRcfv.jpg)

A bit off-topic here, sorry.  I've never liked this aircraft, but this picture makes me want to build one of these as a twin-jet.  Scratch some two-dimensional exhaust nozzles, figure out what to do with the prop-shaft housings, and have a pretty (far-fetched) little jet fighter.  :)

Sorry for the diversion, but if I don't sort these thoughts out now, I'll lose them forever.
Now I return you back to the story already in progress ...
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Dizzyfugu on April 01, 2020, 01:15:57 am
In this context, I found a sketch of a pure jet version of the F5U in a book - purely fictional, though:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49723024686_9bec5bc92a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iKRuV5)
Post-war STOL Skimmer concept drawing (https://flic.kr/p/2iKRuV5) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dizzyfugu/), on Flickr

And, BTW, there actually was a rival for the F5U from Boeing, the B.390 project with a single turboprop and more of a central fuselage - and actually not with the F5U's STOL capabilities:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49723338637_f8f79e3f28_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iKT7f2)
Boeing B.390 project - an F5U alternative (https://flic.kr/p/2iKT7f2) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dizzyfugu/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: zenrat on April 01, 2020, 01:52:39 am
...picture makes me want to build one of these as a twin-jet.  Scratch some two-dimensional exhaust nozzles, figure out what to do with the prop-shaft housings, and have a pretty (far-fetched) little jet fighter.  :)...

Put gatlings in them
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Rheged on April 01, 2020, 02:15:06 am
Not a bad idea at all!!  Only problem is if the rates of fire are not exactly synchronised, I can visualise the whole affair hurtling round the sky like a badly thrown frisbee.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2020, 04:10:18 am
In this context, I found a sketch of a pure jet version of the F5U in a book - purely fictional, though:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/49723024686_9bec5bc92a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2iKRuV5)
Post-war STOL Skimmer concept drawing (https://flic.kr/p/2iKRuV5) by dizzyfugu (https://www.flickr.com/photos/dizzyfugu/), on Flickr

Spread the nozzles out into thin slits at the trailing edge, then have intake slits upstream from them that a) cool the nozzles, b) cool the exhaust stream and c) act like thrust-reversers. Essentially, they'd be like linear A-37 Viggen nozzles.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2020, 04:21:30 am

It has the added advantage that if the pupil really screws up, the instructor can scoot forwards a bit and kick him in the side of the head... :wacko:


Just like a Jaguar, Tucano or any other modern trainer.  ;D

I understand that if the pilot made errors in a Sea Vixen, the navigator in his black hole could bite his ankles!

The back seaters in Javelins discovered a couple of 'interesting' things:

1. By unscrewing a panel in the back cockpit, they could get access to the control linkages from the front cockpit to the flying controls and steer the plane by pulling on them even though they didn't have any official flying controls (telling the pilot was optional... :wacko: )

2. With a bit of practice, the "diddly-dee, diddly-dee" sound of the stall warning horn (a very, VERY important piece of kit in the Javelin) could be simulated using a harmonica... :wacko: :wacko:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 01, 2020, 05:40:19 am
Without the props there'd be no big vortices to generate the massive lift at low speeds which was the root of Zimmerman's patent. The single finned pure jet version just wouldn't work the same way, and that goes for the Boeing aircraft too.

Plus the RW F5U had a couple of automatically operated flaps at the trailing edge, between the two fins, that stabilised it during landing. The jet version doesn't have the room for those flaps either.

Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: NARSES2 on April 01, 2020, 06:31:07 am
I think Unicraft do a "kit" of that Boeing project ?
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Dizzyfugu on April 01, 2020, 08:07:00 am
Yes, I remember having seen a model of the B.390.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: The Wooksta! on April 01, 2020, 09:22:43 am
I think Unicraft do a "kit" of that Boeing project ?

Please do NOT use the word 'Kit" and "Unicraft" in the same sentence!
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 01, 2020, 09:45:51 am
I think Unicraft do a "kit" of that Boeing project ?

Please do NOT use the word 'Kit" and "Unicraft" in the same sentence!


As if...………..  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 01, 2020, 03:41:22 pm
The PSRing of the Pancake was a right pain, the intakes didn't fit at all well, and the tailplanes were pretty awful too. But amazingly it came OK in the end, mainly by the use of Albion Alloys narrow sanding sticks to get round the intake areas.

I've put one coat of primer on and I think the PSR's pretty well done!  :thumbsup: ;D

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9350/umEwBK.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5104/jstBUU.jpg)

It looks strangely different without the cowl flaps sticking up half way down the engine fairings.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: The Wooksta! on April 01, 2020, 04:51:00 pm
For markings, how about Canadian Navy as a COD aircraft?  I'll pass on some resin barrels so it could be delivering Maple syrup supplies.

I'll get me coat...
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 02, 2020, 03:13:24 am

For markings, how about Canadian Navy as a COD aircraft?  I'll pass on some resin barrels so it could be delivering Maple syrup supplies.

I'll get me coat...


 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

No, it's slated to be a USN Trainer, in that T-28 scheme I posted elsewhere much earlier.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: NARSES2 on April 02, 2020, 06:40:39 am
I think Unicraft do a "kit" of that Boeing project ?

Please do NOT use the word 'Kit" and "Unicraft" in the same sentence!

That's why I put it in parenthesis  :angel:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 04, 2020, 03:26:23 pm
The rear half of the cockpit is well under construction now. I've filed (and filed and filed.....) the canopy so that it fits and looks right, and that determines the profile of the rear of the canopy support, and you can see that under construction here.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8286/uZc6KW.jpg)

It'll surely need a small amount of PSR once I've finished, but not too much I hope. I'm working on the other prop as well, that's SO fiddly!  :-\
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 06, 2020, 02:11:29 pm
I found the dregs of a can of grey primer so was able to go a bit further with the Pancake today. The understructure of the canopy is done, and after LOTS of PSR it's looking pretty much as I intended it to. It needed a fair amount of filing and PSR at the front end too, but it's pretty much there now.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1092/MTcrW5.jpg)

Here's the structure before spraying, so you can see how many little bits and pieces there are in there.


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/5534/RI8uPM.jpg)

And here it is all sprayed up. It may need a tad more PSR once I've looked at it in the morning, otherwise the extended fins go on next.


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/9679/T6pa0z.jpg)

I've also finished the other prop. They take ages to do as the hub end of the blades are so thin that ordinary cement just isn't strong enough to hold them in position, so they need supergluing individually while being jigged in position. Thank goodness it didn't have contra-props!
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: jalles on April 06, 2020, 03:38:46 pm
This is looking great! I'm excited to see it with the canopy on  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: The Wooksta! on April 07, 2020, 04:05:59 am
I'd make the fairing behind the canopy longer with a less steep angle.  Something about airflow - Hawkers had similar problems with the Hunter T-bird.

It's also an ideal place to get more fuel in or various electronic gubbins.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 07, 2020, 05:35:05 am

I'd make the fairing behind the canopy longer with a less steep angle.  Something about airflow - Hawkers had similar problems with the Hunter T-bird.

It's also an ideal place to get more fuel in or various electronic gubbins.


In a perfect world I might have done, but I don't have access to the right bits for the rear fairing of the canopy.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 10, 2020, 06:21:44 am
The final PSR session has been done, together with the final coat of primer, if only because I really HAVE run out of the stuff now! Fingers crossed that Halfords come up with my order on Tuesday.

The cockpit and wheel bays have been painted, and this morning I was trying to glue on the resin ejector seat handles...….  :banghead:

Total failure! They're so small and brittle that they were just not strong enough to stay in one piece when I cut them off the resin blocks, so I came up with a Plan B, 5 amp fuse wire.  :thumbsup:

It's exactly the right size and much stronger, but still just as fiddly to bend and attach. So the rear seat's done, but the pupil's seat will have to wait while my eyes refocus!

Oh yes, I've sorted out the planned colour scheme  and the required decals and they're already to be printed. The colour scheme's a ZINGER, none of that Midnite Blue business, oh NO!  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 10, 2020, 03:56:51 pm
Things have ground to a halt again as I've not brought any fine brushes with me, so I can't finish off the cockpit until I can get some more. As there's not a hobby shop in the land that's open I'm having to wait for Amazon to deliver me a set, together with some more paint.

Ho Hum...……………. :(
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: rickshaw on April 10, 2020, 05:45:15 pm
Hnag in there, Kit.  Would you like a care package sent from Downunder?   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 11, 2020, 04:20:36 am
At Amazon's current delivery rate, a care package from down under may arrive here first!
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: zenrat on April 11, 2020, 05:03:56 am
Jeez, they must be really slow.

Current advice provided to us in the Post Office is that parcels from Australia to the UK are subject to two to three week delays on top of the quoted delivery time.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Old Wombat on April 11, 2020, 05:14:41 am
I know it's the Easter long weekend but a delivery from Melbourne is, currently, 3 (actual) business days late & the tracking site now simply states "Delayed", without any ETA.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: DogfighterZen on April 11, 2020, 05:20:37 am
Can't say i like the look of that thing but that is very nice work done on the canopy fairing.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: zenrat on April 11, 2020, 05:52:43 am
I know it's the Easter long weekend but a delivery from Melbourne is, currently, 3 (actual) business days late & the tracking site now simply states "Delayed", without any ETA.

Did it leave here before it got delayed?
There are delays interstate because of the lack of aircraft to put the post in (a lot usually travels in passenger aircraft).  Also the sheer volume of chocolate being sent out by Grandparents who are not able to get to see the little shits darlings in person.  Seriously, we ran out of boxes last week and they were mostly being filled with brown gold.

I haven't received anything coming the other way either.   :-\

Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Old Wombat on April 12, 2020, 02:32:47 am
I know it's the Easter long weekend but a delivery from Melbourne is, currently, 3 (actual) business days late & the tracking site now simply states "Delayed", without any ETA.

Did it leave here before it got delayed?
There are delays interstate because of the lack of aircraft to put the post in (a lot usually travels in passenger aircraft).  Also the sheer volume of chocolate being sent out by Grandparents who are not able to get to see the little shits darlings in person.  Seriously, we ran out of boxes last week and they were mostly being filled with brown gold.

I haven't received anything coming the other way either.   :-\

PM inbound - to keep Kit's thread AustPost free.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 12, 2020, 04:54:45 am
I know it's the Easter long weekend but a delivery from Melbourne is, currently, 3 (actual) business days late & the tracking site now simply states "Delayed", without any ETA.

Did it leave here before it got delayed?
There are delays interstate because of the lack of aircraft to put the post in (a lot usually travels in passenger aircraft).  Also the sheer volume of chocolate being sent out by Grandparents who are not able to get to see the little shits darlings in person.  Seriously, we ran out of boxes last week and they were mostly being filled with brown gold.

I haven't received anything coming the other way either.   :-\

PM inbound - to keep Kit's thread AustPost free.


I don't mind, it's not as if I can post anything else before my new brushes get here in a weeks time.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 20, 2020, 05:06:29 am
At LAST I've got the canopies on after painting the cockpit interior with my new brushes.  ;D

Yes, I KNOW it looks weird, but it's meant to. After all the whole AEROPLANE looks weird!  :o

(http://imageshack.com/a/img923/5786/TRJ2kU.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/4112/UaKWwE.jpg)

Now it's time to mask them up and put the main colour coat on. And about time too!
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: zenrat on April 20, 2020, 05:29:21 am
It looks familiar for some reason.  I'm getting a sci fi vibe though.

Also looks good.  Roll on colour coats.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Scotaidh on April 20, 2020, 05:30:51 am
It looks familiar for some reason.  I'm getting a sci fi vibe though.

Also looks good.  Roll on colour coats.

Cylon ...
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Tophe on April 20, 2020, 10:36:40 am
Very nice silhouette with the new canopy :wub:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: ericr on April 20, 2020, 10:44:34 am

yes, extraordinary
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: kitnut617 on April 20, 2020, 11:17:21 am
I think it looks great Kit, very period ---- as finsrin on BTS commented on my Twin Tail T-33, ' very hardcore 50's'
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 20, 2020, 11:41:30 am
Also available in white.  ;D

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/2070/ZWCYhj.jpg)


And with Scale Reference Cat too...………  ;) Who figured that it may be a mouse and therefore needed to be chased all over the carpet!

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1356/5iWujd.jpg)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: loupgarou on April 20, 2020, 12:30:19 pm
You risked having your work destroyed by cat's claws???  :o
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 20, 2020, 01:01:13 pm
Not really, he was just interested and nosed it around a bit.  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: AndrewF on April 20, 2020, 02:14:31 pm
I think this is looking perfectly reasonable given that it's basically a propeller driven flying saucer.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 20, 2020, 03:23:27 pm
Having applied the base white colour, I'm now back in the 'how red is red' business.  :banghead:

I've tried the fin and tailplanes areas in a test mix of 50% Humbrol Semi-gloss red and 50% Xtracolor Easyjet Orange. We'll see what it looks like in the morning...………….
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Dizzyfugu on April 21, 2020, 12:50:38 am
Very nice silhouette with the new canopy :wub:

Second that. Blending donor canopies into "unintended" hulls is never easy, and this here looks very good.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 21, 2020, 03:55:32 am
Very nice silhouette with the new canopy :wub:

Second that. Blending donor canopies into "unintended" hulls is never easy, and this here looks very good.  :thumbsup:


Glad you like it, thanks.

There was a LOT of the ex-Jaguar canopy filed away, at both ends and underneath, to get it to fit.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: ChernayaAkula on April 21, 2020, 05:43:58 am
Canopy looks cool!

It looks familiar for some reason.  I'm getting a sci fi vibe though.<...>

Missing a pair of socking great solar panels. maybe?  :wacko:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: NARSES2 on April 21, 2020, 06:30:31 am
Not really, he was just interested and nosed it around a bit.  ;D

And what would you have done if he'd shown a little more than "interest" ?  :angel:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 21, 2020, 06:37:08 am
Not really, he was just interested and nosed it around a bit.  ;D

And what would you have done if he'd shown a little more than "interest" ?  :angel:


Grabbed it quick!  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: NARSES2 on April 21, 2020, 06:45:08 am
Not really, he was just interested and nosed it around a bit.  ;D

And what would you have done if he'd shown a little more than "interest" ?  :angel:


Grabbed it quick!  ;D

The cat or the model  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 21, 2020, 06:45:53 am
Both...…………………..  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 22, 2020, 02:12:40 pm
Pretty much all the painting on the Pancake is done now, and it looks NOTHING like any XF5U-1 that you've seen before!  ;D

For much of the detail painting I've been using both Humbrol and Tamiya acrylics, which has been a 'bridge too far' for me in the past, but I'm starting to be weaned away from my long loved enamels at last. The Tamiya acrylics are really nice to use, go on very well, cover superbly and dry in no time at all, amazing stuff.

I've also been drawing up the decals for the Pancake, not helped by the USN wanting to have it stars and bars very visible on its trainers, so they put them on the junction between the hi-vis red/orange areas and the white! To make it worse, on the underside the stars and bars go right across the main landing gear doors, so figuring out where the cut lines go is a real PITA!.

I've managed it, but it took me all afternoon drawing them up.

Maybe some pics tomorrow evening, and then you'll be going 'Oooer, that DOES look weird!'  ;)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Tophe on April 23, 2020, 03:53:30 am
And with Scale Reference Cat too...………  ;) Who figured that it may be a mouse and therefore needed to be chased all over the carpet!
(Double) Pancake vs Tomcat, I am not sure the pancake would win, not being eaten... ;)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 23, 2020, 04:35:01 am
And with Scale Reference Cat too...………  ;) Who figured that it may be a mouse and therefore needed to be chased all over the carpet!

(Double) Pancake vs Tomcat, I am not sure the pancake would win, not being eaten... ;)


The Scale Reference cat only eats Royal Canin cat food, plus the odd mouse now and then. He's just interested in colourful models.  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Tophe on April 23, 2020, 04:43:15 am
 ;D
(So the model may be finished and displayed, good!) ;)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 23, 2020, 05:19:15 am
Next week some time, with luck.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 24, 2020, 10:48:56 am
Maybe not...……….  :banghead:

I'm having trouble getting some of the paints I need for this, got some on order now but they'll be a while arriving, thanks to the postal delays.

Worse though is the fact that all the white bits of the airframe will need a re-spray. I hand painted all the Hi-Viz red/orange bits, but even with extensive masking I needed a few touch ups, and brush white paint isn't the same colour as spray white paint! I've tried decanting the spray paint into a paint cup, but it's obviously not the same colour.  :banghead:

The only solution is to mask up all the Hi-Viz and respray the white.

Ho hum......................:(
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Martin H on April 24, 2020, 02:09:51 pm
Also available in white.  ;D

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img921/2070/ZWCYhj.jpg)


Hmm a few rebel alliance markings and it wouldnt look to out of place taking part in Lukes trench run in Starwars................
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 24, 2020, 02:49:35 pm
The actual markings it's going to have are equally outlandish!  ;D

You'd need space for an R2 droid in the back though, wouldn't you?  ;)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 24, 2020, 03:43:12 pm
It needed a bit of colour, so I gave  it some.

Well, a LOT of colour actually.  ;D

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/5347/hTpxsO.jpg)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: kitnut617 on April 24, 2020, 04:03:47 pm
Very nice   :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Martin H on April 24, 2020, 04:27:04 pm
oooohh Shiny!  :mellow: :mellow: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: ericr on April 24, 2020, 11:30:05 pm
It needed a bit of colour, so I gave  it some.

Well, a LOT of colour actually.  ;D


 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

(what about a delicate touch of blue and yellow somwehere ?  ;D )
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Tophe on April 25, 2020, 12:08:42 am
Well, a LOT of colour actually.  ;D
This is a good camouflage to be invisible in the shelves of my 10-year old son (full of toys)...
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: loupgarou on April 25, 2020, 12:09:31 am
Hmmm.... the fin with red and the white cut-out makes me think of something swiss...
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: NARSES2 on April 25, 2020, 12:53:49 am
She'll definitely stand out on the table Kit (whenever we next get to set one up  :-\). Very striking  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Dizzyfugu on April 25, 2020, 12:58:11 am
That's looking great!  :wub:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 25, 2020, 03:12:37 am
If you read the posts at the start of the thread, you'll know what the cutouts on the fin are for.

It's a US Navy trainer to teach the sprogs how to fly the single seater fighter Pancakes, so it has to be red and white with lots of black codes and numbers splattered all over the place.

Sorry Ericr, no chance of blue or yellow.  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 26, 2020, 05:54:15 am
I've done the white re-spray, and it went pretty well OK, just the masking of the Hi-Viz was a tad tedious. There's a few spots need touching up but that should be OK.

I started applying the decals, mostly self-printed, but I'm using the Hasegawa ones for the prop blades, and there's three decals per blade and EIGHT blades!  :banghead:

Needless to say, being Hasegawa, they all fell apart so I was glad I'd scanned them and was able to print some spares. They look suitably complex, as well the hi-viz tips that I've done with paint and decals. Sadly I made a screw up of the main decals that lie over the junction between the white and Hi-Viz areas. I forgot that my self-printed decals are so thin that any coloured items need a white background, or you can see the Hi-Viz right through them.  :banghead: So now I've printed some all white underlays to put down before the decals themselves. A trial in the upper right serial and codes didn't go too badly so I'm hopeful.

I've got to sort out the landing gear next, and I have some white metal gear from the Pegasus kit that I may use as the Hasegawa items look a bit fragile. I can't glue the legs in place till my wheel bay paint arrives later in the week, which is a pity or it'd be finished today. :(
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 26, 2020, 01:40:54 pm
I've done all the decals and the detail painting, and the props are on as well.

All that's left is the landing gear and the teeny-weeny elevator mass balances, and they'll probably only last a few days as they look VERY vulnerable.

Here's a teaser shot of a bit of it...…………..  ;D

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1103/oL2RKd.jpg)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: loupgarou on April 26, 2020, 11:59:23 pm
Gosh...how many TINY decals !  :o
Thanks for the idea of scanning decals prior the use, just in case...
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 27, 2020, 12:46:43 am

Gosh...how many TINY decals !  :o
Thanks for the idea of scanning decals prior the use, just in case...


There's three detail decals on each blade, plus the ones I printed for the red stripe, and there's eight blades altogether. It's a VERY fiddly job.

I scan every decal sheet from every kit I build, just in case. The manufacturers hardly ever supply spares, and we quite often need them.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: The Wooksta! on April 27, 2020, 02:10:46 am
With Spitfires, I tend to buy at least two of each boxing to have spare serial codes.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: AndrewF on April 27, 2020, 07:21:02 am
 :thumbsup:fantastic!
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 27, 2020, 08:02:09 am
Brush painting decanted Halfords Appliance White over the Tamiya infected tailplane didn't work, so I'll be re-spraying it later on. <sigh>

The landing gear is assembled, glued in place and painted, and what a fiddle THAT was! Each main gear leg has FIVE parts to it, goodness knows why, but it's on there now, and just needs its wheels.

Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 27, 2020, 08:48:57 am

Sorry Ericr, no chance of blue or yellow.  ;D


Actually Ericr there is a touch of blue on it now.  ;D

The re-spray of the tailplane went sort of OK, but there's so much paint on it now that the elevator hinge line has vanished entirely! Not only that, two of the prop blades snapped off in the process!  :banghead: :banghead:

The roots of the prop blades are so thin that there's no chance they'll stay on for long. I can see me replacing every one of them with wire in the long run, but that may prevent the props from turning, darn it.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: ericr on April 27, 2020, 09:27:20 am

Sorry Ericr, no chance of blue or yellow.  ;D


Actually Ericr there is a touch of blue on it now.  ;D

what about a wee hint of yellow somewhere? spinners ?  :wacko:

Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 27, 2020, 09:55:16 am

Sorry Ericr, no chance of blue or yellow.  ;D


Actually Ericr there is a touch of blue on it now.  ;D

what about a wee hint of yellow somewhere? spinners ?  :wacko:


There's the ejection seat firing handles, they're yellow and black.

But they're only about 2.5 mm wide...………….
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: ericr on April 27, 2020, 10:39:24 am

Sorry Ericr, no chance of blue or yellow.  ;D


Actually Ericr there is a touch of blue on it now.  ;D

what about a wee hint of yellow somewhere? spinners ?  :wacko:


There's the ejection seat firing handles, they're yellow and black.

But they're only about 2.5 mm wide...………….

ah, fair enough  ;D :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: kitnut617 on April 27, 2020, 11:03:23 am

Gosh...how many TINY decals !  :o
Thanks for the idea of scanning decals prior the use, just in case...


There's three detail decals on each blade, plus the ones I printed for the red stripe, and there's eight blades altogether. It's a VERY fiddly job.

I scan every decal sheet from every kit I build, just in case. The manufacturers hardly ever supply spares, and we quite often need them.

Kit, is it best to 'scan' the decal rather than 'copy' them
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 27, 2020, 01:05:57 pm
'Scan' them, as then you can use the filed image to make copies of lost or damaged decals if need be. Best copy them as .bmp files too, as while they may be much larger files, they don't deteriorate with time as .jpgs will do.

If you 'copy' them all you'll have will be a paper copy of the decal sheet, which will be handy to look at for reference, but will be no use for any further work.

I've got a 156 scanned sheets in my decal library so far, which takes up only 5.36 Gb.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 27, 2020, 01:12:52 pm
This model is becoming impossible.  :banghead:

While doing the re-spray of the tailplane I had two of the prop blades break off, and now while trying to glue them back, a THIRD one broke off from the other prop!

Once again we have manufacturers sacrificing practicality in place of scale 'accuracy', a subject I've touched upon with respect to landing gear axles. In this case the prop blades of the Pancake are mounted clear of the hubs on short but  very small diameter shafts. In the model they're about 1.2 mm in dia. but with those socking great blades hanging well outside the airframe they're just too fragile. There's no way the model will be transportable to shows as it is.

I'm going to have to drill the blades and the hubs and use wire reinforcements somehow, and that's going to be very fiddly and will probably require re-painting of the blasted blades! If I get this thing finished before the end of the GB it'll be a ruddy miracle. :(
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: joncarrfarrelly on April 27, 2020, 02:11:36 pm
Kit, .jpegs don't deteriorate over time, that's an old long-disproved myth, it's just 1s and 0s,
which don't change regardless of the amount of time that passes. The media they're stored
on can deteriorate, but not the actual digital file.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 27, 2020, 02:27:40 pm
I've had .jpgs of my decal files lose detail and gain blurred borders over time, and .bmps don't do it anywhere near as much.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: AndrewF on April 28, 2020, 12:34:48 am
I've had .jpgs of my decal files lose detail and gain blurred borders over time, and .bmps don't do it anywhere near as much.
A digital file won't change over time - however jpeg is a "lossy' compression format: it saves a file by reducing detail of the original image to make a smaller file size. When you save a jpeg you can choose the level of compression - and hence the level of detail to lose; which is why it's a format used for websites, because you can optimise the payoff between a big file (in terms of weight) and detail. If you use strong compression on a jpeg you'll get a smaller sized file, but you'll start to lose detail - the image will begin to look blurred, or even worse, you'll get artifacts like the 'blocky' effect you get on some website images. Png is a better format as it compresses well, but is lossless, so you don't lose detail or get artifacts. But both these formats are primarily for web use. If you want to print, the other problem is resolution. On a screen, for an image at 100% physical dimensions it doesn't matter if the image has been saved at 72dpi or 300dpi - it will look the same. if you zoom in though, the 300dpi image will keep more detail. A 72dpi scan will be fine to look at on screen, but will print out blurred or pixellised. If you really want to archive decal sheets to reprint, you have to scan them at 300dpi, ideally in TIFF format. This will keep the same level of detail you have on the original document. But it will create big files.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Dizzyfugu on April 28, 2020, 12:44:29 am
The blurring in effect is caused by the screen resolution of your monitor. It normally has only 72 or 96dpi at best, and that's also called screen resolution, because a picture file at this level is ONLY good for screen view at 100%. If you zoom in, it immediately breaks away and you cannot print from it without visible losses - that's why at least 300dpi are recommended.
BMP is a lossless format, but the files are huge because a lot of color information (each pixel) has to be saved. TIFFs are also "high quality" files. JPGs and other compressed formats just remember certain points on the bitmap and fill the gaps with algorhithms, so that less information has to be saved. But you lose quality, and it cannot be regained. I recommend PNGs, which are a compromise, but for printing files I'd stay with 300dpi (or more, 600 are better) and BMPs or TIFFs, in order to save the originals' quality.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Weaver on April 28, 2020, 03:21:56 am
Just to add another point about file formats, if you want to modify an image at the pixel-by-pixel level, then ideally you don't want to start from a JPEG, and you certainly don't want to save it as a JPEG, at least until you're done and want to post it (then JPEG-ize a COPY of it, not your one-and-only file!). The reason is that as explained, the JPEG algorithm only remembers certain points on the original image and fills in the gaps by 'bluuring' from one colour to the other. This means that if you have a BMP image with a nice crisp black line on a white background, and you accidentally save it as a JPEG, then when you open it again, your black line will have a blurry edge made of 97 shades of grey and blue, while your white will now be 97 shades of very, very light grey*. Any simple attempt to FILL or REPLACE either with another colour will fail, although more sophisticated graphics programs than Paint have algorithms of their own to get around this.

*Ask me how I know... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Knightflyer on April 28, 2020, 03:44:40 am
Well to steal Kit's thread for a second - thank-you for the above info Gents, it does help me understand the 'now why has it done that?' issues I've had when creating my own very basic aircraft paint scheme profiles in Paint  ;D Especially the umpteen Shades of Grey .....and they even made a film about it!  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 28, 2020, 05:20:54 am
Which is why I do all my decal work with BMP files...………………….
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 28, 2020, 08:23:30 am
SORTED!  :thumbsup:

After a good night's thought I approved of my original idea of replacing the prop blade shafts with wire, so today I've drilled all the blades with a 0.8 mm drill (!) and added the 30 amp fuse wire shafts. Then I drilled the hubs a similar size, and superglued the whole assemblies back together, making sure that the shafts didn't go all the way through to the prop hub or else I'd have been likely to glue the blades to the hub shafts and the props wouldn't rotate afterwards. :(

Drilling with a 0.8 mm drill is a tad scary, you expect it to go PING at any moment and shoot off across the room in two halves! It turns out that there's added advantage in having fuse wire blade shafts as I can bend the blades relative to the others to ensure they line up properly, but it's not that crucial as the real aircraft's blades could articulate like a helicopter rotor and they didn't line up exactly anyway.  ;D

It's done at last, so I can move on to the wheels, gear doors, and those TEENY mass balances on the tailplanes, after I've tidied up the paintwork on the props of course.

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/6323/IREcP8.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9340/ZvQ2st.jpg)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: AndrewF on April 28, 2020, 10:16:39 am
To rant on about file formats (again, sorry) - there are two main problems with BMP files: they store information inefficiently, so they are much bigger than (for example) a PNG file.

The other major problem with BMP is if you want to print, as they only support RGB colour space (Red Green Blue - ie the colours used to make all the colours on a computer screen). If you print, you'll be using CMYK colour (Cyan, Magenta, Yellow, Black - the four colours that are mixed to visually 'make' the colours in a printed document), so the colours you see on your BMP file on screen won't come out of the printer the same. For example, an RGB space can have really vibrant dark blues, which when printed in CMYK will come out really flat and "dead" compared to the RGB version. So when printing stuff the file you're printing from has to be a CMYK file as well - especially if you want 'accurate' colours on markings ("the red is too bright on the roundels" etc.). The "screen" formats like BMP and PNG dont support CMYK; the best move is to scan the original artwork at 300 or 600dpi in CMYK colour and save it as a TIFF file.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Weaver on April 28, 2020, 10:21:04 am
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Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 28, 2020, 10:24:25 am
A) I don't have an option at what bpi to scan, it is what it is.

B) I spend quite some time adjusting the printed colours on my decals so they fit the desired scheme.

Having been doing this for a long time I know what works for me.
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 28, 2020, 12:16:08 pm
DAMN Zimmerman and his mass balances! Why didn't he use internal ones like many other designers?

I've got three of the blasted things on, but the fourth, the very LAST bit to be added to the aircraft, just WON'T go into place. There's nowhere to support the airframe as there's either a fragile prop blade or an equally fragile mass balance in the way.

I've put the ruddy thing away for a bit as otherwise I'll sling it through the window!  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Title: Re: Double Pancake - FINISHED!
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 28, 2020, 03:15:21 pm
At last it's done, and not before time either!

By jigging that last mass balance with a lump of Blu-Tak I got the thing to stick on in the end, but I don't hold out much hope for any of them staying for long, they're just too vulnerable.

Anyway, here's a Vought TF5U-2 'Double Pancake' trainer of USN Fleet Replacement Squadron VA-46 (AKTRON 46 'The Hummingbirds') based at NAS Hanley Field in Dallas TX in 1956. Conveniently the base was right next door to the Vought factory where it was built.  ;)

DG 261 is finished in the then current USN trainer scheme of overall white with red/orange Hi-Viz areas on the nose and tail, with the unit markings displayed on fin and wings, if the aircraft actually had any wings...………

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/3892/oqkZ3c.jpg)

(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/8669/XIiUQG.jpg)

From almost all directions the enormous props of the Double Pancake dominate the view. Rotating in opposite directions the props tend to cancel out the drag producing vortices generated by the 'wing' tips, and not only increase the speed of the aircraft but improve the manoeuvrability as well.


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/4223/gFYjQ2.jpg)

The tilted tandem cockpit of the Double Pancake enabled the instructor to see ahead of the aircraft during the very high angle-of-attack approaches that were almost normal for the Pancake variants. The clear nose on the trainers did not carry the radar ranging gunsight aerial but was retained to enable the pupil to see directly ahead during the steep approaches.


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/8207/7acOYJ.jpg)

From the rear the twin turbine exhausts from the Allison T40 turboprops can be seen, as well as the extended fins fitted to the trainer variants.


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1479/oAcDNh.jpg)

The Double Pancake exhibits a truly fearsome look from dead ahead, once again dominated by the twin, fully articulated propellers. Fighter variants carried 6 x 0.5" guns in triple racks either side of the cockpit but the trainers were unarmed.


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/240/9QQ97i.jpg)

The underside view of the Double Pancake shows the twin drop tanks often carried during later training sorties, and these were borrowed from VF-100, the operational F5U-2 squadron, thus their Midnite Blue colour.


(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/4886/J1Zvut.jpg)

This view shows the arrestor hook fitted for deck landing training, although the landing speed of the Pancakes was so slow that they often landed vertically with reference to the ship upon which they were landing! Also note the placement of the insignia split across the landing gear doors. This was because there was little room left on the very compact airframe of the Pancakes.

==============================

The full backstory is here :- https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=47768.0 (https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=47768.0)

Sorry to those who got lost looking for the  backstory, I managed to link one of the pics above by mistake. :banghead:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: ChernayaAkula on April 28, 2020, 05:04:23 pm
That looks very, VERY cool!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: jalles on April 28, 2020, 07:19:59 pm
Dang that's a fine looking machine! That hi-viz paint job is striking, love it  :wub:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: ericr on April 28, 2020, 11:01:54 pm
 :o :o :o
 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: AndrewF on April 29, 2020, 12:28:44 am
Nice one - looks great!
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Gondor on April 29, 2020, 12:50:03 am
A very nice looking build Kit  :thumbsup:

Gondor
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Dizzyfugu on April 29, 2020, 01:54:54 am
Sweet, the bold colors suit the pancake well! And the cockpit implant looks very natural, too.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: zenrat on April 29, 2020, 02:03:13 am
Very good Kit.
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Scotaidh on April 29, 2020, 02:50:59 am
That looks great.  :)  All the more-so since we know you sweated blood to make it.  :)
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: NARSES2 on April 29, 2020, 06:20:21 am
You've had some battles with this I know Kit, but you really won out in the end.

Great build mate  :bow:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: kitnut617 on April 29, 2020, 07:08:43 am
Kit! what a cracker of a job you've done ---  :wub: :wub: :wub:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on April 29, 2020, 07:12:47 am
Thanks gentlemen, I'm glad you like it.  ;D

I've had the idea in my head for some years, but it was never really a goer with the Pegasus kit. Once I found the Hasegawa one wasn't as expensive as I thought it all became possible. And this GB triggered it of properly of course.

I still hate the props and those BLASTED mass balances!
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Old Wombat on April 29, 2020, 09:07:43 am
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: loupgarou on April 29, 2020, 02:56:28 pm
Congratulations for your success in taming a rebel kit! The result is beautiful. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: nighthunter on April 29, 2020, 04:38:20 pm
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😜
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Flyer on April 30, 2020, 07:41:30 am
Love it!  :wub: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: Mossie on April 30, 2020, 10:55:01 am
Beauty! :wub: :wub: :wub:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: sandiego89 on April 30, 2020, 01:46:55 pm
Fantastic result Kit. Well done

Dave
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: joncarrfarrelly on April 30, 2020, 02:44:37 pm
 :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: rickshaw on April 30, 2020, 08:10:27 pm
Very nice indeed, Kit.  Well done!   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Double Pancake
Post by: PR19_Kit on May 01, 2020, 04:51:05 am
Glad you like it gentlemen, it was a bit of a pig to build, but came out looking just how I imagined it in the first place.

But probably NOT how Mr. Zimmerman imagined it.  ;D
Title: Re: Double Pancake - FINISHED!
Post by: Tophe on May 03, 2020, 07:58:08 am
At last it's done
Belated congratulations! :wub: