What if

General Modelling Forum => General Modeling topics => The Idea Bank => Topic started by: chrisonord on August 20, 2019, 09:19:00 am

Title: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on August 20, 2019, 09:19:00 am
I  have  ordered  myself  a matchbox  lightning  T55, and instead  it being  an armed export trainer,  as per the customer  specs, I  have  thought  about  it being  an RAF  multi role platform.  I  have  an old airfix  lightning  single seater,  that has no weapons  or instructions,  and  from what I  have  read, isn't a great  kit,  so I  bought  the matchbox  two seater.  Fuel tanks  on the top of the wings, cannons and  a pair of  aams on the fuselage,  or perhap3 something like  the crusaders  four missile  set up. Under the win3 a pair of cluster bombs,  or rocket pods.  The airframe/wings etc,  will be suitably  reinforced  for  such a task. Also, depending  on when the aircraft  is in service,  it could carry a pair of AGM-45 Shrike on the fuselage  pylons,  for SAM suppression.
Chris
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: kitnut617 on August 20, 2019, 10:42:27 am
Not sure if it was in the Data File book on the Lightning or somewhere else, but I've seen a set of drawings showing various weapon load-outs where one had two sidewinders to each side pylon. But I also seem to remember reading that most of the types had an un-welcome handling side effect ---
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on August 20, 2019, 01:53:44 pm
Hmm, maybe  in wiff world the aircraft  didn't  suffer  such problems,  sidewinders or maybe even  Falcons (improved  of course) would work
Chris.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on August 24, 2019, 11:15:07 am
I am leaning towards  a pair of agm-12 bullpups  on the wing pylons  as, without  checking the  weights,  they  should be  light enough  to be carried there.
Chris
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Weaver on August 24, 2019, 04:17:41 pm
IIRC, they wind-tunnel tested twin Sidewinders on Crusader-style side pylons and found that it reduced lateral stability to the point where the aircraft would need a bigger fin (bigger than the F.3/F.6 one). However they did project them for the mid-belly tank weapon pack on some of the advanced versions, so maybe they wouldn't be a problem if they were further back?

There are mockups of some of the mid-belly-tank options. There are diagrams in Chris Gibson's Battle Flight. Colin from Freightdog showed me the brochure for his F.2A belly pack conversion, and the Bullpups were probably going to be replaced by AS.30s:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Lightning%20weapons_zpsjihpqmol.jpg)


These are the wing pylons. This aircraft also has the recce pack in the missile-support-pack position, which I've never seen actually flying before:

(http://www.aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/53666.jpg)
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on August 24, 2019, 06:01:09 pm
Marvellous,  I did think of as30's, but  thought them to be too physically big for the aircraft.
Chris.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Weaver on August 24, 2019, 07:29:23 pm
AS-30:
Weight: 1146lb
Length: 384-389cm (depending on version)
Body dia: 34cm
Wingspan: 100cm

Bullpup A:
Weight: 569lb
Length: 320cm
Body dia: 30.5cm
Wingspan: 95cm

Since the pylon could also hold a '1000lb' bomb that probably weighed more than 1000lb, I don't see weight being an issue.

There seems to be plenty of room lengthways, so that's probably not an issue.

Wingspan and body diameter? Not a lot in it, but it's hard to tell how significant it would be. Maybe the pylon would have had to be different? It'd probably have to be internally different anyway to interface with the AS-30.

I've got the Freightdog conversion and some resin AS-30s, but it's a bit hard to mock up because what really matters is the undercarriage clearance. Since the conversion kit comes with a pair of bombs (British prototype low-drag bombs similar to US Mk.83) I thought I'd build the kit first, try the AS-30s, then if they didn't fit, I'd either go with the HE bombs or fit a WE.177 tac nuke on one side.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: kitbasher on August 25, 2019, 12:10:15 am
IIRC, they wind-tunnel tested twin Sidewinders on Crusader-style side pylons and found that it reduced lateral stability to the point where the aircraft would need a bigger fin (bigger than the F.3/F.6 one). However they did project them for the mid-belly tank weapon pack on some of the advanced versions, so maybe they wouldn't be a problem if they were further back?

There are mockups of some of the mid-belly-tank options. There are diagrams in Chris Gibson's Battle Flight. Colin from Freightdog showed me the brochure for his F.2A belly pack conversion, and the Bullpups were probably going to be replaced by AS.30s:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/Lightning%20weapons_zpsjihpqmol.jpg)


These are the wing pylons. This aircraft also has the recce pack in the missile-support-pack position, which I've never seen actually flying before:

(http://www.aviation-picture-hangar.co.uk/53666.jpg)

Weaver old chap, your posts in this thread has inspired a Lightning whif involving Sidewinders.  IIRC the RAF had briefly considered the feasibility of adding wing pylon-mounted Winders to F.6s (one per pylon).  If so, and given the double-SNEB carriage option that came with the export F.50-whatevers, do you know if double Winders were ever considered (or are feasible)?  ,
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Rick Lowe on August 25, 2019, 01:49:13 am
The F-4 already had a double-'winder carrier attachment, so maybe they could have borrowed some from the RN/USAF?

I wouldn't have thought the weight of two would have been much more than a SNEB pod, so why not?  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Weaver on August 25, 2019, 05:01:27 am
Weaver old chap, your posts in this thread has inspired a Lightning whif involving Sidewinders.  IIRC the RAF had briefly considered the feasibility of adding wing pylon-mounted Winders to F.6s (one per pylon).  If so, and given the double-SNEB carriage option that came with the export F.50-whatevers, do you know if double Winders were ever considered (or are feasible)?  ,

I've never seen any real-life mention of Sidewinders on the wing pylons. The double MATRA pods had to be angled asymetrically relative to the pylon, presumably in order to clear the open u/c doors. The inboard one was near-vertical and the outboard one near-horizontal, so if it is possible to get two 'Winders on there, I suspect they'd have to be angled as well, probably using something like the twin-rail adaptors used on the Sea Harrier post-Falklands but more extreme. Alternatively, since the outboard pylon is quite deep, you could have one AIM-9 on the bottom of the pylon and one on the side of it, like an F-14 wing pylon.

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/Aircraft/LightningWeapons-1.jpg)
(Image by Mossie)

(http://nuclear-weapons.info/images/033-Sea-Harrier-loaded.png)

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f5/F-14A_VF-1_from_below_with_AIM-7_and_AIM-9_1982.jpg)
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: zenrat on August 25, 2019, 05:19:44 am
That Tomcat is filthy.

But still its panel lines are not as heavy as some would have us believe.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: rickshaw on August 25, 2019, 05:32:53 am
I think that the worst problem for the EE Lightning was that of drag.  The airframe was optimised to carry two large AA missiles on the forward pylons.  To substitute Sidewinders would, as already mentioned, required a larger fin than was fitted to the F3/F6 versions.  To put them elsewhere would bring other problems associated still with drag.  I have often wondered though, about putting them over the wings, like the drop tanks, on the sides of the pylon?
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: kerick on August 25, 2019, 06:58:51 am
Didnít the Jaguars have over wing sidewinder rails? Seems the logical choice to me.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: PR19_Kit on August 25, 2019, 07:06:44 am

That Tomcat is filthy.

But still its panel lines are not as heavy as some would have us believe.


The USN never did understand pre-shading.....................  ;D ;)
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: kitbasher on August 25, 2019, 07:33:48 am
I've never seen any real-life mention of Sidewinders on the wing pylons. The double MATRA pods had to be angled asymetrically relative to the pylon, presumably in order to clear the open u/c doors. The inboard one was near-vertical and the outboard one near-horizontal, so if it is possible to get two 'Winders on there, I suspect they'd have to be angled as well, probably using something like the twin-rail adaptors used on the Sea Harrier post-Falklands but more extreme. Alternatively, since the outboard pylon is quite deep, you could have one AIM-9 on the bottom of the pylon and one on the side of it, like an F-14 wing pylon.

I guess then maybe dispense with the fuselage rails, and adapt Tornado inner wing pylons - AIM-9 rail instead of a drop tank plus the regular GR1/GR4 Sidewinder rail (e.g. https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q635/1alzaro/IMG_0430_zpskqwigwd0.jpg&key=294259056c5c7cb0309dc6acc3be0bdf9f1e9d594793b4cdebd4a171f2af5fa9)
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Weaver on August 25, 2019, 10:18:52 am
I've never seen any real-life mention of Sidewinders on the wing pylons. The double MATRA pods had to be angled asymetrically relative to the pylon, presumably in order to clear the open u/c doors. The inboard one was near-vertical and the outboard one near-horizontal, so if it is possible to get two 'Winders on there, I suspect they'd have to be angled as well, probably using something like the twin-rail adaptors used on the Sea Harrier post-Falklands but more extreme. Alternatively, since the outboard pylon is quite deep, you could have one AIM-9 on the bottom of the pylon and one on the side of it, like an F-14 wing pylon.

I guess then maybe dispense with the fuselage rails, and adapt Tornado inner wing pylons - AIM-9 rail instead of a drop tank plus the regular GR1/GR4 Sidewinder rail (e.g. https://www.britmodeller.com/forums/applications/core/interface/imageproxy/imageproxy.php?img=http://i1167.photobucket.com/albums/q635/1alzaro/IMG_0430_zpskqwigwd0.jpg&key=294259056c5c7cb0309dc6acc3be0bdf9f1e9d594793b4cdebd4a171f2af5fa9)

That might work. Bear in mind however that the real F.50-odd wing pylons were sloped forwards quite a bit, I suspect for CofG and/or aeroelasticity reasons. propably the best scheme therefore would be to use the Alleycat pylons, with nicked or aftermarket AIM-9 rails mounted well forward on the pylon.

Rickshaw's point about drag is a good one too. If I wanted four Sidewinders on a Lightning, I'd be inclined to go for two on the original fuselage rails and two on the overwing pylons. If I wanted two drop tanks as well, I'd move the overwing Sidewinders to the outboard position on single rails: that way there are no draggy twin store adaptors involved. I'm not keen on the mid-belly-pack position for AIM-9s as their 'look-up' into a turn is blocked by the wing.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: kitbasher on August 25, 2019, 10:22:55 am
Have been matching up a battered Airfix Lightning this avo with various bits and pieces and the fuselage/wing load mix is what I'd decided on.  Thanks for the info, apologies for the minor thread hijack!
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on September 08, 2019, 01:34:44 pm
I have  had a good root through my  collection of  aim-9's,  and  couldn't find any  b model  types,  which  would  I  think would  suit the  time  frame  for  my  future  build.  So I  managed to find  a set of Eduard brassin aim-9b's , 4 of them in a set, and  they have  the  dreaded  P.E fore planes, so they  should be fun :rolleyes: I  could  use one  pair on something else   in my 1960's  RAF  builds
Chris
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 08, 2019, 03:11:25 pm
But do you have access to an electron-microscope so you can glue those teeny-weeny fins onto the nose of the 'winders?  :o
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on September 08, 2019, 03:36:10 pm
 ;D
But do you have access to an electron-microscope so you can glue those teeny-weeny fins onto the nose of the 'winders?  :o
;D ;D ;D
I think I  will set out to deliberately  glue them to the tweezers,  and  trick them into  sticking to the  missiles.  Or get someone else to  glue them for me    :wacko:
I can't  stand  pe on a good day,  and  I  know  that the fins will be the worst ever. Be reet.
Chris.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Weaver on September 09, 2019, 12:01:34 am
;D
But do you have access to an electron-microscope so you can glue those teeny-weeny fins onto the nose of the 'winders?  :o
;D ;D ;D
I think I  will set out to deliberately  glue them to the tweezers,  and  trick them into  sticking to the  missiles.  Or get someone else to  glue them for me    :wacko:
I can't  stand  pe on a good day,  and  I  know  that the fins will be the worst ever. Be reet.
Chris.

 ;D ;D ;D

My approach would be to put CA on one piece and accelerator on the other, but since I've never actually done it, I can't swear that it'll work or not...
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 09, 2019, 04:34:50 am

 ;D ;D ;D

My approach would be to put CA on one piece and accelerator on the other, but since I've never actually done it, I can't swear that it'll work or not...


I've tried that a few times, with the result that the PE bit glued itself even MORE strongly to my fingers that it would have been otherwise. It's very difficult to apply the accelerator without getting a hint of it on you, and thereby lies the problem.  :banghead:
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: NARSES2 on September 09, 2019, 06:04:20 am

My approach would be to put CA on one piece and accelerator on the other, but since I've never actually done it, I can't swear that it'll work or not...

The theory is fine, however sometimes in practice it grabs just a tad to quickly. Some of the "cheaper" glues can lose some of that instant grab after a while and strangely that can help with their application and use. The consistency of some of the new Loctite glue allows for some very precise application and they seem to have got the timings just about spot on for our use. However it's certainly a fresh blob of glue per part unlike the cheaper stuff.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 09, 2019, 08:31:52 am
My fave superglue is the Loctite gel glue with a rubberised add-on so it's not so brittle. It's pretty strong but I find it has a short self-life and needs to be used quite quickly. Keeping it in the fridge doesn't seem to have the usual shelf-life lengthening effect either.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Gondor on September 09, 2019, 10:01:40 am
Alternativly speak nicly to someone who happens to have some of the Hasegawa 1/72 early sidewinders

Gondor
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on September 09, 2019, 01:26:42 pm
Hmm, who might  that be ;D ;D
Chris
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Gondor on September 09, 2019, 02:32:20 pm

Hmm, who might  that be ;D ;D
Chris


Actually not me  :lol:

Sent so many to others that all I have spare is:

2 x AIM9-B's
2 x AIM9-E's  &
2 x AIM9-D's

Gondor
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on September 09, 2019, 02:58:09 pm
Haha,  I  have  some  from the  hasegawa sets but  none of them  look  like  aim-9 B's. I have  looked at  photos and recognition pictures,  but the nearest I have look out of scale,  hence  I  jumped out of the pan and  into the  fire. ;D
Chris.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Captain Canada on September 09, 2019, 04:20:28 pm
Looking forward to seeing more of this one. Such an awesome beast of a machine. Thanks for posting pics of the weapons proposals....love it !
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: kitnut617 on September 09, 2019, 05:05:56 pm
A couple more 'load-out' pics

(http://village.photos/images/user/8f3973c9-3f0e-4b54-80e2-017121c0bf9f/f4158391-f1f4-4e0c-80ea-5584dc69ad30.jpg)

(http://village.photos/images/user/8f3973c9-3f0e-4b54-80e2-017121c0bf9f/19c294d2-929a-469d-8b65-0bca73f9d176.jpg)
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Gondor on September 10, 2019, 02:59:12 am

Haha,  I  have  some  from the  hasegawa sets but  none of them  look  like  aim-9 B's. I have  looked at  photos and recognition pictures,  but the nearest I have look out of scale,  hence  I  jumped out of the pan and  into the  fire. ;D
Chris.


Deciding what an AIM-9B looks like is partially due to perception of what it should look like and how correct your source is.

The Hasegawa weapons set is set III and parts as I listed earlier are 1,2 & 3 from Sprue A

High Planes do a set of two AIM-9B's in a box as well.

Gondor

Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on September 10, 2019, 03:20:21 am

Haha,  I  have  some  from the  hasegawa sets but  none of them  look  like  aim-9 B's. I have  looked at  photos and recognition pictures,  but the nearest I have look out of scale,  hence  I  jumped out of the pan and  into the  fire. ;D
Chris.


Deciding what an AIM-9B looks like is partially due to perception of what it should look like and how correct your source is.

The Hasegawa weapons set is set III and parts as I listed earlier are 1,2 & 3 from Sprue A

High Planes do a set of two AIM-9B's in a box as well.

Gondor
I have seen the highplanes aim 9 b's, but at what they cost just for a pair I didn't  want  them that much. With abbit of luck I will be able to assemble  these eduard ones without too much  agro.
Chris.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: NARSES2 on September 10, 2019, 05:50:04 am
. With abbit of luck I will be able to assemble  these eduard ones without too much  agro.
Chris.

Are you selling tickets for the event Chris ?  :angel: ;) ;D

Nah, best of luck mate  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on September 10, 2019, 06:01:32 am
. With abbit of luck I will be able to assemble  these eduard ones without too much  agro.
Chris.

Are you selling tickets for the event Chris ?  :angel: ;) ;D

Nah, best of luck mate  :thumbsup:
Pmsl, I  might  just do that
Chris
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: NARSES2 on September 10, 2019, 06:05:48 am
I always find that with my eye sight issues I get the first couple fine and then one of them will just decide it will not behave  :banghead: You get used to it in the end and soon realise that whilst threatening the part makes you feel better it doesn't actually do any good  ;)
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 10, 2019, 08:15:47 am
A technique I've used with equally small N gauge model railway items is to glue them in place with a trace of Evo-Stick, waiting the requisite 10 mins before putting the parts together, and then run superglue into the joint surfaces with a toothpick as a guide.

I did it only this morning, which reminded me to post it on here of course.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on September 10, 2019, 08:35:16 am
A technique I've used with equally small N gauge model railway items is to glue them in place with a trace of Evo-Stick, waiting the requisite 10 mins before putting the parts together, and then run superglue into the joint surfaces with a toothpick as a guide.

I did it only this morning, which reminded me to post it on here of course.
Thankyou Kit, I will  add that trick to my armoury
Chris.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Scotaidh on September 10, 2019, 12:49:21 pm
You could use some small styrene tubing cut to length (correct diameter to be found at Evergreen.com) and glue on some triangles.  Fill and round the nose; paint the rear end black  ...

No?  Not an option?
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on September 10, 2019, 01:10:46 pm
The  B model has some  subtle  detail on them  that I would struggle to  replicate in such a  small  scale,  the nose is nearly flat also
Chris.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 11, 2019, 05:17:46 am

...... and glue on some triangles. 


And THAT'S the nub of the problem!  :o
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on September 11, 2019, 05:29:34 am

...... and glue on some triangles. 


And THAT'S the nub of the problem!  :o
Yep, that is pandora's box of the situation alright.
Chris
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: kitnut617 on September 11, 2019, 07:08:40 am
This link might be of use to you Chris --

https://tailspintopics.blogspot.com/2013/08/things-under-wings-sparrow-missiles.html
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on September 11, 2019, 07:51:07 am
Cheers  Robert,
I haven't  considered  sparrows  until I  read that, but the early  ones  fit within my time frame.  I might already  have some  sparro 1 and 2's in the weapons  boxes.  :thumbsup:
Chris.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: Mossie on September 11, 2019, 01:03:09 pm
Some background, not meant to influence your choice.  I've just re-read the piece in Battle Flight about Red Top alternatives.  The RAF came to the conclusion that Sparrow III needed a continuous wave illuminator that would be too big for Lightning.  The IR Sparrow V would have worked without it but was a tail chaser only.  Another option investigated would have been to fit it Sparrow the Red Top seeker to give it all aspect capability.

There's an image showing potential locations for Genie which was heavily considered (all the American missiles were looked at and Falcon and Sidewinder were found inferior to Red Top).  The outer wing pylon is quite shallow compared to the one that equipped the Mk.50 series, however it's possible it's for illustration only.
Title: Re: English Electric Lightning T55/ FGR 1a
Post by: chrisonord on September 11, 2019, 01:50:24 pm
I have  been  considering  Falcons  for another  aircraft  I  have  lined up, the Boulton Paul p120 or p111, mainly  due  to its compact  size  for such a small  aircraft,  the other will receive  wing tip  rocket pods. They  would  be ok I  was thinking  for the outer wing pylons.  I was thinking  that the U.K and Sweden bought  some  and  wasn't impressed with their  performance,  so worked together  to make  them more usable. Sidewinders again due to their size  and  success rate,  would  make  a useful  addition  to a lot of aircraft  back then.  Redtop and firestreak will also  get used on other stuff I have  waiting to  be built.
Chris.