What if

Picture Post => Current and Finished Projects => Aircraft => Topic started by: tc2324 on March 09, 2019, 10:17:40 am

Title: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: tc2324 on March 09, 2019, 10:17:40 am
So...., it would probably be an understatement to say `its been awhile`, but the time has come to get stuck back in to a whif project. A proper kitbash of a project and one that is already proving to be a headache. This is going to be fun.  :wacko:

So the topic in question is in the title, but those of you unaware of what the general look on the FVS concept, let me shed some light.

(https://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/mcdonnell_f-4fvs-08-680x576_zpseb4obxra.jpg) (https://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/mcdonnell_f-4fvs-08-680x576_zpseb4obxra.jpg.html)

Two kits were required for this always remembering the first rule of kitbashing, buy cheap!

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7842/33407134888_6b0d756a31_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/SU5ijh) (https://flic.kr/p/SU5ijh)

Now my plan was to have a little play around with this `concept` and not just `wash, spin, repeat,` as such. So I was thinking about moving the swing wings either low set or mid set like so.


(https://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9732_zpsimo6qbsp.jpg) (https://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9732_zpsimo6qbsp.jpg.html)

Today I started the chopping and I`ll let the pics tell the story .....,

(https://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9738_zpsf6cnvf9f.jpg) (https://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9738_zpsf6cnvf9f.jpg.html)

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9739_zpsnyp1agp4.jpg) (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9739_zpsnyp1agp4.jpg.html)

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9742_zpshsjcincn.jpg) (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9742_zpshsjcincn.jpg.html)

..... and then it hit me!  :banghead:

So that`s why the wings are set high on the original concept design!

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9744_zpsu04ggo0t.jpg) (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9744_zpsu04ggo0t.jpg.html)

More JD and thinking time required me thinks.....! ;D
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 09, 2019, 10:20:28 am
VEEEEERY interesting, and more power to your variable sweep elbow.  :thumbsup:

Why did they do away with the anhedral tailplane on the VS version?
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: tc2324 on March 09, 2019, 12:00:32 pm
Why did they do away with the anhedral tailplane on the VS version?

No idea Kit, if I had to guess I`d say any full swept back movement of the wings may contact the tailplanes?
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Captain Canada on March 09, 2019, 06:56:08 pm
Big and ugly lol
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: kerick on March 09, 2019, 07:37:12 pm
Just my $0.02 but maybe move the wing mounts a bit forward?

This is a great idea and I'll be watching this what ever way you go with it.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: zenrat on March 10, 2019, 01:24:09 am
Interesting.
Got me wondering about a Phantom/Su-22 hybrid.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Gondor on March 10, 2019, 04:44:35 am
Just my $0.02 but maybe move the wing mounts a bit forward?

This is a great idea and I'll be watching this what ever way you go with it.

Check the fuselage length as off the top of my head I know that some of the proposed versions of the Phantom had a fuselage stretch and this may be one of them.

Gondor
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: NARSES2 on March 10, 2019, 07:23:28 am

Got me wondering about a Phantom/Su-22 hybrid.

On seeing the pieces laid out that was one of my thoughts as well
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: kitnut617 on March 10, 2019, 07:31:08 am
Just my $0.02 but maybe move the wing mounts a bit forward?

This is a great idea and I'll be watching this what ever way you go with it.

Check the fuselage length as off the top of my head I know that some of the proposed versions of the Phantom had a fuselage stretch and this may be one of them.

Gondor

About 36" longer going by the references I've found
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: tc2324 on March 12, 2019, 09:22:29 am
A bit more done today with the first picture showing my initial markings on the lower fuselage half of what I felt provided enough space for the swept back trailing edges of the wings. Obviously the upper fuselage half is what I actually required......!

(https://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9758_zpsw89s8rok.jpg) (https://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9758_zpsw89s8rok.jpg.html)

At least I went small but had to get big. Better that than the other way round!

Next are some concept shots of how I`m going to lay this all out. A kind of mid fuselage assembly and thankfully the F-14 u/c legs are long enough to supply reasonable clearance. You will also not that I turned the tail planes the other way round so instead of being flat like on the original design, they now point slightly up which I felt made it look a little different.

 (http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9749_zpsgtszl6uf.jpg) (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9749_zpsgtszl6uf.jpg.html)

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9751_zpsbiy2bjzq.jpg) (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9751_zpsbiy2bjzq.jpg.html)

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9755_zpszkbryelb.jpg) (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9755_zpszkbryelb.jpg.html)

More soon.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: kitnut617 on March 12, 2019, 11:42:36 am
Before you got too far into this neat project, maybe this diagram might help.

(http://village.photos/images/user/8f3973c9-3f0e-4b54-80e2-017121c0bf9f/cbbd2800-e59d-465e-a366-a13b577da1af.jpg)
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Tophe on March 14, 2019, 09:45:49 am
Have you seen the model Dizzyfugu showed us at http://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php/topic,30511.1950.html ?
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: chrisonord on March 19, 2019, 01:04:55 pm
I shall be taking notes on this as I have a few phantoms in the stash and a couple of craptech f-14's too :thumbsup:
Chris
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: kitnut617 on March 19, 2019, 02:51:23 pm
Just saved that nice 3-View TC, as I had been looking at doing one of these to (after reading about it on SPF). I was going to use one of my Fujimi F-4M's and some wings from a bagged F-14 but matching up parts it didn't look right. The 3-View explains why, the fuselage is quite a bit longer, I just measured the Fujimi F-4 Mk.3 kit I have built, which is 56'-6", so my estimate further up isn't quite right, the swing-wing would need a 52" plug added ----
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Thorvic on March 19, 2019, 04:28:01 pm
https://1drv.ms/f/s!ApTzeCUSM5titBnDGimHJ5X05hOI (https://1drv.ms/f/s!ApTzeCUSM5titBnDGimHJ5X05hOI)


These are the shots of the one i built using the Matchbox FG-1, Fujimi cockpit and nose gear bay plus engines and an F-14


Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: kitnut617 on March 19, 2019, 05:10:53 pm
did you add a plug into the fuselage Geoff ?
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Thorvic on March 20, 2019, 01:13:41 am
did you add a plug into the fuselage Geoff ?

Yes, there is a fuselage plug aft of the cockpit. I boxed in the matchbox central fuselage so I could do it deeper strengthen it and proved space for the main landing gear, I also removed the spine so I could fit the VG wing box and then re-fitted the spine.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: kitnut617 on March 20, 2019, 07:41:20 am
did you add a plug into the fuselage Geoff ?

Yes, there is a fuselage plug aft of the cockpit. I boxed in the matchbox central fuselage so I could do it deeper strengthen it and proved space for the main landing gear, I also removed the spine so I could fit the VG wing box and then re-fitted the spine.

Ah! yes now that you've pointed it out, I can see it -- and where you marked your drawing ---   :banghead:
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: tc2324 on March 23, 2019, 10:06:13 am
So I had a bit of a break from this due to a death in the family so here`s a bit of an update from today. Thanks all for the input as well although I`m a bit gutted that Geoff`s version has exactly theww same scheme I was going to go with. May change that now.  :-\

First photo shows my first attempt at using Milliput as my preferred Squadron Green seems to have gone a bit weird in recent batches(?) so thats the gaps plugged and will just need to shape it all out.You will also note the slots cut out for the folding wings which with should hopefully be enough clearance for the engine and exhausts.

The rest of the shots show the shape of the aircraft once all the main components are in place. More soon and thanks for looking.

(https://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9768_zpsnsjs4ovb.jpg) (https://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9768_zpsnsjs4ovb.jpg.html)

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9762_zpsqpyknbbs.jpg) (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9762_zpsqpyknbbs.jpg.html)

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9761_zpszyi2onx9.jpg) (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9761_zpszyi2onx9.jpg.html)

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9765_zpsqpbnouwv.jpg) (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9765_zpsqpbnouwv.jpg.html)
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: scooter on March 23, 2019, 10:08:25 am
(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9761_zpszyi2onx9.jpg) (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9761_zpszyi2onx9.jpg.html)

Looks like a heavy MiG 23/27
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: McColm on March 24, 2019, 12:28:11 am
Looks good, 
This gives me a kitbash of using the F-15 Eagle and the F-14 Tomcat  :banghead:
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: kerick on March 24, 2019, 06:21:37 am
Might be easier to switch the forward fuselage sections.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: NARSES2 on March 24, 2019, 07:34:35 am

Looks like a heavy MiG 23/27

My thoughts as well, with a little Su 24 thrown in ?

Sorry to hear about the bereavement.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: tc2324 on March 30, 2019, 12:22:05 pm
`Installed` some guides for the wing areas today so that when it comes to fitting the wings they will at least be straight`ish!

(http://i888.photobucket.com/albums/ac81/tc2324/IMG_9782_zpsfbm29yjw.jpg) (http://s888.photobucket.com/user/tc2324/media/IMG_9782_zpsfbm29yjw.jpg.html)
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: tc2324 on April 06, 2019, 05:29:37 am
First time using Milliput and can safely say I need more practice. It went everywhere, although in my defense, the gaps were quite large with lots and lots of sanding going forward.....!

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7805/33672007748_1d5a0aedd2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/TitQMJ) (https://flic.kr/p/TitQMJ)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7913/33672007158_08b341301d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/TitQBy) (https://flic.kr/p/TitQBy)
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: NARSES2 on April 07, 2019, 05:32:25 am
It took me a while to get used to Milliput as well. ;) Although I now remove the bulk of the "extra" amount with a sponge and water.

The thing I still haven't learnt to do is to mix the right amount for the job in hand. I always end up with loads left over  :banghead:
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: tc2324 on April 21, 2019, 12:22:41 pm
Really lost my mojo with this recently, the milliput went everywhere and I mean everywhere and the cockpit fell in on itself so that was a task in itself to re-position it.

Anyways, to hide some sins I`ve fitted some conforming `tanks` and filled the gaps which means more sanding and filling....... :banghead:


(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32715777377_103fc5bf67_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/RQYUPc) (https://flic.kr/p/RQYUPc)
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Hobbes on April 22, 2019, 01:09:52 am
I agree with Chris, Milliput is easy to work with before it sets. It also takes several hours to set, so plenty of time to clean up.

I use a knife (wet) to cut off any excess sticking out. Then a wet finger to smooth out the remainder. A sponge is a good idea, it'll act as an abrasive. Finally a wet cloth to remove the white fingerprints left on the plastic.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Captain Canada on April 22, 2019, 06:01:52 am
She's getting there eh ! Going to be one heavy model
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: tc2324 on May 06, 2019, 08:35:09 am
So it got to the point to where all the filler and sanding in the world wasn`t going to sort everything out and therefore I moved on and gave the model it`s first coat of paint. The bonus to this was that the darker paint highlighted a few areas that still need attention while hiding other areas that I can get away with.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46999794374_2d33f546e0_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2eBdeqj) (https://flic.kr/p/2eBdeqj)
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Tophe on May 06, 2019, 10:34:36 am
Wow! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: TheChronicOne on May 08, 2019, 09:27:02 pm
Lookin good!!!! Love seein some swing wing action goin' on.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Captain Canada on May 09, 2019, 04:36:02 pm
Cool ! Sure looks different from what I was thinking. Going to be great with the wings back !
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: TheChronicOne on May 10, 2019, 09:20:01 am
I'm picking up Soviet vibes from it right now.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Old Wombat on May 11, 2019, 10:54:00 am
I'm picking up Soviet vibes from it right now.

I was (& am) getting Mini-BOne vibes! ;)
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: TheChronicOne on May 11, 2019, 11:10:52 am
I'm picking up Soviet vibes from it right now.

I was (& am) getting Mini-BOne vibes! ;)
Yeah buddy.....     Throw a nice cruciform tail on there and we're in business.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: tc2324 on May 12, 2019, 07:13:35 am
Can definitely relate to the MiG-27/B-1 comparisons   :thumbsup:

A quick update on proceedings ......

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/32888922247_a541444e07_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/S7hjKz) (https://flic.kr/p/S7hjKz)
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: TheChronicOne on May 12, 2019, 07:50:42 am
 :mellow: :mellow: :mellow: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Scotaidh on May 12, 2019, 07:57:13 am
That looks great!  :)  Always loved that "Flying Armored Fist" squadron marking - kinda says it all, I think.  :)
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Captain Canada on May 12, 2019, 01:25:57 pm
Looking good !
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: zenrat on May 12, 2019, 03:46:26 pm
I can see the MiG 23/27 comparisons but from that angle i'm getting Buccaneer.  Must be the paint job.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Scotaidh on May 13, 2019, 05:44:12 am
I can see the MiG 23/27 comparisons but from that angle i'm getting Buccaneer.  Must be the paint job.

Ooh!  A swing-wing Buccaneer!  Now, why didn't I think of that?
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: NARSES2 on May 13, 2019, 06:46:33 am
That actually looks fast just standing there without a canopy, so what it's going to look like once finished I've no idea.

Absolute stunner in progress  :bow:
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: tc2324 on May 16, 2019, 11:29:16 am
All done and finished in the guise of a Royal Navy example that was used operationally during the 1982 Falklands Conflict.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/47863852651_b7d26fd862_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2fVyKQP) (https://flic.kr/p/2fVyKQP)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33986582298_095d88cb04_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/TMh7QS) (https://flic.kr/p/TMh7QS)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46947666975_54dfb041d8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ewB4L4) (https://flic.kr/p/2ewB4L4)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46947666615_034fd72689_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ewB4DR) (https://flic.kr/p/2ewB4DR)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/46947666765_3056eeaa62_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ewB4Gr) (https://flic.kr/p/2ewB4Gr)

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/33986581868_b50d626b84_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/TMh7Hs) (https://flic.kr/p/TMh7Hs)


Not my best `what if` but a fun little side project.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Tophe on May 16, 2019, 11:34:32 am
wonderful! :wub:
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Glenn Gilbertson on May 16, 2019, 03:40:06 pm
Well worth the effort - a very good-looking result. The "Bunch with the Punch" would have been proud! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Old Wombat on May 17, 2019, 12:26:10 am
Very cool! :mellow:
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Rick Lowe on May 17, 2019, 01:15:33 am
I like it. The wings still slightly forward even at full sweep seems to look better than slightly angled back from the line of the fixed portion.

*That made sense in my head, but now I come to re-read it...  :unsure:
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: PR19_Kit on May 17, 2019, 02:03:14 am
Very good indeed, and wholly believable, in a different time/space continuum anyway.  :thumbsup:

A techie question though, why do VG Phantoms not need the anhedral tailplanes? I've seen 3-4 models of them and they all have flat tailplanes.
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: Rick Lowe on May 17, 2019, 02:16:13 am
why do VG Phantoms not need the anhedral tailplanes? I've seen 3-4 models of them and they all have flat tailplanes.

Another point of difference? Maybe there's a perceived problem with the wings striking them when swept? :unsure:

Dunno, but to have them anhedral would hark back to the original a/c better...
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: zenrat on May 17, 2019, 03:56:55 am
Very good.
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: NARSES2 on May 17, 2019, 05:57:36 am
I do like that  :thumbsup:

In certain theatre's it might well need some form of I.D. markings I would have thought as there's such a resemblance to a Mig 23 from some angle ? The return of D Day Stripes or BPF bands ?  ;D
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: kerick on May 17, 2019, 06:04:05 am
That head on photo really gives it a Soviet look. Nice work all around!
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: TheChronicOne on May 17, 2019, 06:12:24 am
Turned out great if you ask me!   
Title: Re: F-4 (FVS) Concept
Post by: tc2324 on May 17, 2019, 11:07:05 am
Thank you chaps.  ;D