What if

GROUP BUILDS => The Flying Machines of Unconventional Means GB => Topic started by: Weaver on February 26, 2019, 01:18:34 am

Title: Victorian Aerial Carriage: in which a decision is made and good fortune reported
Post by: Weaver on February 26, 2019, 01:18:34 am
I was going to sit this one out to be honest, but I may have been inspired by this image:

(https://thegraphicsfairy.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/flying-machine-Image-Graphics-Fairy-1024x812.jpg)
(image from here: https://thegraphicsfairy.com/steampunk-image-flying-machine/)

Mostly because it reminded me of some things that were languishing in the stash:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7822/47164587172_29a534ff97_c.jpg)

A lot of these fall together so perfectly that it may be impossible for me not to build a flying machine loosely* based on the illustration...



*Results may differ from illustration, manifesto, logic or reality. No liability is accepted for consequent disappointment or outrage.
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: Rheged on February 26, 2019, 01:39:10 am
With those wings, it looks like an archaic batmobile.   However your creation turns out, I do hope you have a pilot like the chap in the pic.  I assume that his moustache adds to the aerodynamics of the vehicle.
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: zenrat on February 26, 2019, 02:02:28 am
The 'tache would act as a vortex generator ensuring boundary layer flow conditions around his head thus ensuring he didn't lose his captains hat.
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: Weaver on February 26, 2019, 02:05:18 am
With those wings, it looks like an archaic batmobile.   However your creation turns out, I do hope you have a pilot like the chap in the pic.  I assume that his moustache adds to the aerodynamics of the vehicle.

To be frank sir, that was a matter of some concern to me upon initial contemplation of this project. However the retrieval of the De Dietrich kit from the nether reaches of one's Stash revealed that, although not illustrated upon the box for some unfathomable reason, the kit does indeed include a fine example of exactly the sort of stout English gentleman required to complete the period aesthetic, and he is indeed possessed of a splendid moustache that could be used to provide steering for the vehicle in the event that it's more conventional controls should fail.

Although, as one might put it in the current idiom, the Stash provided the 'stashe, alas it did not provide a pair of bat-like wings, and thus that is one aspect in which this project will differ significantly from it's inspiration.
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: loupgarou on February 26, 2019, 02:17:10 am
For the wings, you could use those from a Brifaut Adler kit. Only problem is that's a very rare and expensive kit.
Or find some bat in the toy range, like this:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Schleich-14719-Fruit-Bat/dp/B00GVTDARE/ref=sr_1_5?s=kids&ie=UTF8&qid=1551176133&sr=1-5&keywords=bat
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: strobez on February 26, 2019, 02:47:23 am
Ok... I need to see this happen.  I LOVE it!
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: Weaver on February 26, 2019, 11:31:45 pm
Fair warning gentlemen: electro-daguerreotypes of a glueless mock-up of this vehicle will hopefully be posted before this morning is out, fair winds and good fortune permitting. Vintage car enthusiasts possessed of a nervous disposition or an easily offended nature are most solemnly advised to avert their gaze.


AN UPDATE:

Good fortune is not, it seems smiling upon me this morning, for, within mere minutes of posting the above message, the plastic seat of the stool upon which I sit in order to perform my modelling activities broke without warning, and I only escaped a most indelicate injury by the slimmest of margins. This is not the first time that the seat in question has come close to doing me intimate violence: it is of Swedish manufacture and, I suspect, resents it's exile from it's native culture and climate. Whatever it's motivations, it has now exhausted all the chances I am willing to afford it, and rather than expending valuable time attempting to effect a repair, I shall replace it with a something more sturdy at the earliest opportunity. In the meantime, another stool, of sub-optimal design but adequate utility, has been pressed into service, and the manufacture of the mock-up shall therefore proceed with only slight delay. Thank you for your understanding and indulgence.
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: zenrat on February 27, 2019, 01:19:14 am
Bugger!

Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: Rheged on February 27, 2019, 01:46:29 am
My commiserations on your serious furniture malfunction, and congratulations on the avoidance of  most unpleasant damage to your personal assets..

The moustache has not, in my opinion, been sufficiently researched as an aerodynamic device.  Think, for instance of all of those hirsute upper lips visible in pictures of RAF fighter chaps of the 1930's and early '40's. The late Graham Hill's facial hair has been mentioned elsewhere on this site as a means of generating aerodynamic downforce in a formula one vehicle but there is no other literature easily available on this important topic.

..........and let's not even start on the hydrodynamic and hydrostatic properties of Royal Navy officers beards.
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: Weaver on February 27, 2019, 02:46:42 am
Bugger!

Had vigilance not served me well in the previous incident with this chair, in which the pillar upon which the seat rotates broke through it's upper surface, then your chosen terminology would have served as a literal descriptor and not merely as an exclamation... :o
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: Weaver on February 27, 2019, 02:50:56 am
My commiserations on your serious furniture malfunction, and congratulations on the avoidance of  most unpleasant damage to your personal assets..

The moustache has not, in my opinion, been sufficiently researched as an aerodynamic device.  Think, for instance of all of those hirsute upper lips visible in pictures of RAF fighter chaps of the 1930's and early '40's. The late Graham Hill's facial hair has been mentioned elsewhere on this site as a means of generating aerodynamic downforce in a formula one vehicle but there is no other literature easily available on this important topic.

..........and let's not even start on the hydrodynamic and hydrostatic properties of Royal Navy officers beards.

Your commiserations are appreciated sir.

Given that the late professor Geofrey Hill of aeroisoclinic wing fame, as instatiated in the Pterodactyl series of aircraft, was not only engaged in the business of creating unusual aerodynamic surfaces but also shared a surname with Mr. Graham Hill, might one suspect that there existed a hitherto unsuspected connection between the two gentlemen? Perhaps more research is indicated....
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: PR19_Kit on February 27, 2019, 03:03:29 am

Given that the late professor Geofrey Hill of aeroisoclinic wing fame, as instatiated in the Pterodactyl series of aircraft, was not only engaged in the business of creating unusual aerodynamic surfaces but also shared a surname with Mr. Graham Hill, might one suspect that there existed a hitherto unsuspected connection between the two gentlemen? Perhaps more research is indicated....


Hm, you may be onto something there.

My late friend, Robin Hill, was involved in that wonder of aerodynamics, the Blackburn Buccaneer, while he worked at Brough.
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: zenrat on February 27, 2019, 03:27:18 am

Given that the late professor Geofrey Hill of aeroisoclinic wing fame, as instatiated in the Pterodactyl series of aircraft, was not only engaged in the business of creating unusual aerodynamic surfaces but also shared a surname with Mr. Graham Hill, might one suspect that there existed a hitherto unsuspected connection between the two gentlemen? Perhaps more research is indicated....


Hm, you may be onto something there.

My late friend, Robin Hill, was involved in that wonder of aerodynamics, the Blackburn Buccaneer, while he worked at Brough.

Did he have a moustache?

Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: Weaver on February 27, 2019, 03:47:41 am
Gentlemen, I find myself upon the horns of a dilemma, since not one, not two, but three different schemes have occurred to me as possible means of unconventional locomotion for the same basic body, and I therefore beg your attention and informed opinion as to the merits and pitfalls of all three.

Firstly, we have the ornithopter as originally conceived. The wings of the finished article would be made from those of an Airfix Tiger Moth, but have here been substituted with stout card for the sake of expediency. They would be double-articulated, with hinges at the root and at mid-span. The drive to the flapping mechanisms, via a central shaft and the De Dietrich's original chain drives is also shown, although only one of the 'flapping boxes' is represented, together with token operating arms. I must reiterate that these items are only intended to demonstrate the layout, and do not represent the finished articles in any way.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7899/32285021547_a992a097a5_c.jpg)

(I apologise for the narrow depth of field in these electro-daguerreotypes, a failing for which I must take all responsibility, having failed to adjust my camera settings from those used for a previous task. I believe that my intent is still clear from them, however.)

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7900/40262136093_fa450b10f5_c.jpg)

I feel that this design is most in the spirit of true Victorian flying-machine fantasies, but I must confess that I find it a little unsatisfactory in that it conceals to a fair degree the shape of the central cabin, which I feel, quite by accident it is true, evokes rather well the spirit of the early real-world helicopters, specifically the Sikorsky R-4. it is also somewhat complicated in it's construction and I fear the mid-project loss of enthusiasm which experience has taught me to expect in such circumstances.


With this thought in mind, allow me to present the second possible method of completion, namely, the Victorian Helicopter:

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7848/40262128033_94f5098503_c.jpg)

This would have the advantages of simplicity and shapeliness, but would be rather more pedestrian in it's concept. The rotor blades would be co-axial and contra-rotating in operation, and would be made from the lower wings of two Revell Nieuport 17c fighters, which feature a suitably narrow chord and the unrealistically short span so typical of Victorian projects. The craft may also feature an unfeasibly small tractor or pusher airscrew of some kind.

(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7851/47227185141_9899559d95_c.jpg)


The third concept is not illustrated as it is, again, most complex, and I feared that to attempt it would result only in my breaking my promise to post at least something this morning. It might best be described as an aerial rowing boat or 'flaptor'. As in the first scheme, two longitudinal tubes would sit to either side of the craft, but they would be elevated much further above the ground, and would contain shafts that rotate about their axis, driven by the chain gears. Each shaft would support two rotors, front and rear, whose circular blades would behave in a manner somewhat akin to that of a rowing boat's oars, in that they would turn parallel to the ground on the downward side of their travel, in order to push air downwards and thereby generate lift, but would then turn perpendicular to the ground on the upward side of their orbit, thereby avoiding pushing air upwards in a counterproductive manner. Once again, conventional airscrews could be fitted to the ends of these shafts to provide forward motion.

This third idea keeps the Victorian eccentricity of the first concept while preserving the visibility of the cockpit shape from the second. It promises to be as equally complex as the first to construct however.

As you can see, our sturdy pilot is equipped with a fine moustache a most suitable and stylish tweed cap for his aeronautical endeavours.
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: PR19_Kit on February 27, 2019, 05:49:33 am

Given that the late professor Geofrey Hill of aeroisoclinic wing fame, as instatiated in the Pterodactyl series of aircraft, was not only engaged in the business of creating unusual aerodynamic surfaces but also shared a surname with Mr. Graham Hill, might one suspect that there existed a hitherto unsuspected connection between the two gentlemen? Perhaps more research is indicated....


Hm, you may be onto something there.

My late friend, Robin Hill, was involved in that wonder of aerodynamics, the Blackburn Buccaneer, while he worked at Brough.

Did he have a moustache?


Not when I knew him, no. Perhaps that's a factor too?
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: NARSES2 on February 28, 2019, 07:01:27 am
Bugger!

Had vigilance not served me well in the previous incicent with this chair, in which the pillar upon which the seat rotates broke through it's upper surface, then your chosen terminology would have served as a literal descriptor and not merely as an exclamation... :o

All jesting aside that could have been very nasty H. Glad you survived  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: Weaver on March 03, 2019, 07:19:22 pm
Well unfortunately this weekend has been lost to a variety of causes, initially the (so-far fruitless) search for a new chair or tolerable quality, and then more seriously, the hospital visiting and relative-ferrying resulting from my dear aunt being admitted to said facility as a result of her heart problems of last summer apparently re-emerging. I am however glad to report that she is now back home and apparently none the worse for wear, the problem having been diagnosed as a combination of her taking her medication incorrectly and a simultaneous viral infection.

I remain undecided on the matter of whether to build this model as an ornithopter or a helicopter, and since I have purchased, but not yet received, a pair of model kits from Ebay which are relevent to the latter scheme, I am minded to await their arrival and the opportunity to inspect the parts before reaching a decision. Rest assured that, should I opt for the former scheme, the kits will not go to waste since many other models of a similar ilk could be made from their components.

As ever though gentlemen, your opinion and advice would be much appreciated.
Title: Re: Victorian Gentleman's Aerial Carriage
Post by: Weaver on March 04, 2019, 02:55:07 am
Huzzah! One of my purchases from Ebay's splendid emporium has arrived! I am now in possession of a Sopwith Triplane, and since, as I suspected, all six of it's wings are of identical proportion, I can now build two three-bladed rotors which rotate in opposite directions. Once my second Nieuport arrives, I will have the further option of building two two-bladed rotors of opposite handedness. The Nieuport wings resemble real heliopter blades slightly more closely, being longer in span and shorter in chord than the Sopwith ones, but the difference is small. Both sets are, of course, far too small for an actual working helicopter, but that is in keeping with the Victorian fantasy nature of this build.

So I have a question to put to the assembled expertise of the good members of this board: which scheme do you prefer and why?

There are a total of SIX options:

1. Single two-bladed rotor with tail rotor.

2. Co-axial contra-rotating two-bladed rotors with a fixed tail (as per the mockup pictured elsewhere in this thread).

3. Single three-bladed rotor with tail rotor.

4. Co-axial contra-rotating three-bladed rotors with a fixed tail.

5. Tandem-wing ornithopter (as per the mockup pictured elsewhere in this thread).

6. Flaptercopter with rotating paddles providing lift in the manner of a paddle-steamer.


Your contributions would be most welcome good gentlemen!
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 04, 2019, 06:16:04 am
Option 2 appeals to the engineer in me, if only because of its avowed complexity.

The masses will be surely amazed at the temerity of any gentleman attempting to travel aloft aboard a machine of such engineering elegance!

Such complexity could be enhanced by manufacturing the aforementioned rotors in three bladed form, and your stock of supplies would surely allow this variation.
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: Weaver on March 04, 2019, 06:19:59 am
Such complexity could be enhanced by manufacturing the aforementioned rotors in three bladed form, and your stock of supplies would surely allow this variation.

Or in other words, Option 4...  ;D :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: Old Wombat on March 04, 2019, 06:34:29 am
Option 2 or Option 4 for the slightly more sane parts of my brain. :thumbsup:

However, certain less sane parts of my brain are shouting out for a six-winged dragonfly-form ornithopter (maybe with a little fixed box-kite tail at the back). :blink:


Mind you, a couple of even less sane, quite possibly actual "insane", parts of my brain are visualising the flaptercopter of Option 6 in an almost angelic glow. :o :angel:
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: kerick on March 04, 2019, 06:45:06 am
Sounds like option 4 appeals to me.  :wacko:
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: JayBee on March 04, 2019, 07:13:15 am
I say old chap, option 6 sounds much more fun, but I do suppose that if you feel you have to be sensible then one does think it will have to be option..................4.

Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: Rheged on March 04, 2019, 09:09:23 am
This is not an easy question to answer. Number 2 has a considerable  degree of engineering elegance but 6 sounds much more exciting.......although 4 is moderately sane.

DAMMIT!!! GO FOR 6 AND MAXIMUM IMPROBABILITY
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: Tophe on March 04, 2019, 10:34:41 am
Yes, 6 seems the most crazy = most funny = best for me... ;D
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: scooter on March 04, 2019, 10:57:33 am
However, certain less sane parts of my brain are shouting out for a six-winged dragonfly-form ornithopter (maybe with a little fixed box-kite tail at the back). :blink:

That would fit the Victorian aesthetic perfectly. :wacko:
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: 63cpe on March 04, 2019, 11:03:49 am
How about tandemrotor steampunk style (Bat like rotors) with lots of cylinders in improbable places and tubing to connect this and that... ;D

David aka 63cpe
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: Mossie on March 04, 2019, 02:34:22 pm
I really like your no.5 on the last page, I  think the Triplane wings would really set it off.
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: zenrat on March 05, 2019, 01:53:46 am
Option 7.  A bird form ornithopter modelled on the wandering Albatross.
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage:- A question for the members assembled herein...
Post by: Weaver on March 06, 2019, 03:26:35 am
Well then gentlemen, it seems a decision is indicated. Thank you all for your thoughts and suggestions. Upon reading through them all however it appears that, broadly speaking, my audience is split fairly evenly in it's enthusiasms between those supporting the various helicopter schemes and those in favour of various kinds of flapping wings. It therefore falls to me to make the 'casting vote' as it were, and after much deliberation, nay procrastination, I have decided upon Option Three, namely the helicopter with co-axial three-bladed rotors.

My decision is fundamentally based upon the general principle that this option is the easiest one to pursue, and given my lamentable record in finishing projects over the last twelve months, this relative ease greatly increases the probability of this project reaching completion before the relevent deadline. Please note however, that it does not neccessarily raise that probability higher than say, fifty percent...

Two specific issues have also influenced me in this choice.

Firstly, I am able to greatly reduce the time and effort required to build the rotor mast and hubs by simply purloining said items from a model of one of Mr. Kamov's splendidly eccentric creations, namely the Airfix kit of the Ka-25, known unto NATO by the nomenclature 'Hormone'. I have two examples of this product in my kit repository, so if I am ever inclined to build one as it's designer intended, I am still able to do so. Also, the donor appears to have much potential for conversion to some other form of vertical take-off of science-fiction conveyance, and thus will also not go to waste.

Secondly, the leg shields seen in front of the seats in the mockup photographs can be assembled in one of two ways. As illustrated, they form a 'tunnel' down the centre of the craft, which I considered neccessary to accomodate a shaft taking drive to the forward flapping mechanism of an ornithopter. However, in this configuration, they also create a difficulty in that they obstruct the leg of the pilot in such a manner as to prevent him from sitting straight upon his seat, a problem to which the only apparent solution would be surgery to change his stance, of a nature to make Dr. Frankenstein shudder. The helicopter design, by contrast, does not need this shaft, and so the leg shields can be modified to form but a thin vertical wall down the centreline of the craft, thus allowing the operator to maintain his current posture without modification.

I must also relate that a most propitious example of good luck has occurred. The Nieuport model which I was initially considering as a parts donor came from a collection of childhood modelling and wargaming items most kindly donated to me by a good friend. Upon further examination of this hoarde, I discovered a Revell Sopwith Pup box, the significance of whose triply-identical wings to the helicopter option was immediately apparent. However, on opening the box, I discovered that the model had already been completed and painted to a most passable standard, and I found that I could not, in all conscience, bring myself to destroy another modeller's work, even though they had abondoned it many years before and given it to me in the explicit knowledge that that might be it's fate. Accuse me of excessive sentimentality if you wish gentlemen, however it is a failing that I will acknowledge, but am inclined neither to apologise for nor correct.

I therefore purchased another, uncompleted Sopwith Pup via the Ebay website. Upon it's arrival, I noted that the kit is provided with two forms of horizontal tailplane, representing early and late production examples of the type. I then recalled that my friend had included in his gift a bag of sundry spare parts. I examined the same, and was delighted to discover, the corresponding spare tailplane from his old build of decades before! I therefore find myself in possession of two of these items, which will enable me to construct a most appropriate tail surface for the helicopter without preventing the completion of the equivalent surface on the Pup, which will, in turn, make it possible to use the latter as the basis of an autogyro or similar creation upon some future occasion. All in all, a most gratifying outcome!
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage: in which a decision is made and good fortune reported
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 06, 2019, 09:51:42 am
Spiffing thinking there Mr. Weaver. I'm sure we'll look forward to the results of your efforts with barely concealed enthusiasm.
Title: Re: Victorian Aerial Carriage: in which a decision is made and good fortune reported
Post by: joncarrfarrelly on March 07, 2019, 11:49:22 am
Rotors looking like the propellors from Hiram Maxim's machine?

(http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/images/maxim_01_750.jpg)

Or Clement Ader style?  ;D

(http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/images/avion3_foldedwimgs_750.jpg)