What if

GROUP BUILDS => The 2017 One Week Build => Topic started by: Weaver on May 26, 2017, 05:06:26 am

Title: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 26, 2017, 05:06:26 am
Okay, well for this GB I shall be butcherrrr.... creatively modifying these two:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4212/35671697771_3c07ed39f8_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WmbLXV)Parts (https://flic.kr/p/WmbLXV) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr

It's from the same background as my RN-buys-American builds. The idea is that Supermarine get told to build straight-copy F-86s as a panic measure for Korea, then afterwards they produce a more 'Britishised' version with an AS Sapphire engine and their own wing design that serves into the early 1960s.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Captain Canada on May 26, 2017, 07:36:07 am
This will be totally awesome ! I really like the Sabre, and the big, powerful look of the Fury, so adding even more power to it ?
#winning lol

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Dizzyfugu on May 26, 2017, 11:52:14 am
That's promising. This combo has my attention.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 26, 2017, 01:06:36 pm
This will be totally awesome ! I really like the Sabre, and the big, powerful look of the Fury, so adding even more power to it ?
#winning lol

 :thumbsup:

It's not actually more power: the Fury had the J-65 which was a licence-produced Sapphire anyway. The reason I'm going down this route rather than the Aussie-style Avon-Sabre is that it's a damn sight easier to get the Fury kit than the one-and-only-and-rather-rough Avon Sabre conversion, which when you're done with it looks just like a regular Sabre anyway, unless you've got one of the latter to stand next to it for comparison....
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 26, 2017, 07:12:24 pm
And we're off....

Swift wings pruned from their centre-section, and we're immediately into problem no.1 (which was anticipated), namely that the Swift wing has a greater chord than the Fury one. Comparing the two, it's clear that the easy solution, having the leading edge of the root in the same place, puts the centre of pressure too far back since the Swift wing has greater sweep, so we have to go for the harder solution, which is to extend the Fury's wing slots further forwards.

Then problem no.2 (which was anticipated in nature but not in degree) manifests itself: the Swift wing is also WAY thicker. Keeping the existing wing slots and putting a big blob of filler on the bottom of the fuselage seems neither pretty nor credible (why would they design it like that?) so the only solution is to deepen the wing slots over their whole length... :o

I'm not usually a fan of power-tools for plastic modelling (they're only 1% of a speed setting away from melting, rather than cutting), but in this case, the Dremel came out, with a barrel-shaped router bit. Even on the lowest setting it still managed to blow through the bottom of the slot in places, but the job's still a good'un (well on the one side that I've done at least...)

Here's the slots. Top one just extended forwards, bottom one deepened along it's length:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4233/35415197760_396b5324db_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VXw9rW)Fuselage slots (https://flic.kr/p/VXw9rW) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr

And here's the wing depths for comparison:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4282/34993903813_4f9ae5d445_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VjhUrc)Wing thicknesses (https://flic.kr/p/VjhUrc) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr

Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: PR19_Kit on May 27, 2017, 01:57:05 am
Blimey H, you didn't go for the easy path, did you? Re-cutting those wing slots looks like some complex work.  :thumbsup:

If the Swift's wing was that thick it's not surprising it wasn't very much, swift that is.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: sandiego89 on May 27, 2017, 03:22:09 pm
Emhar is not a line I have heard of before. 

Very ambitious for a one weeker!   
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: kitnut617 on May 27, 2017, 04:15:35 pm
Emhar is not a line I have heard of before. 

Very ambitious for a one weeker!   

The FJ-4B is a lovely little kit, got two or three of them in the stash.  The F-86H was the equivalent and I've a plan to put the FJ-4B wings onto one.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 27, 2017, 04:53:11 pm
Emhar is not a line I have heard of before. 

Very ambitious for a one weeker!   

The FJ-4B is a lovely little kit, got two or three of them in the stash.  The F-86H was the equivalent and I've a plan to put the FJ-4B wings onto one.

The FJ-4B is a horrible little kit with soft detail, poor fit and a joke of a cockpit. I've spent most of today making little progress while trying to figure out how to handle the cockpit. I was on the point of chopping up the Swift cockpit to try and concoct something presentable when I test-fitted the Fury's canopy and realised that it's so thick that no one will be able to see much inside anyway, and since it'll be all British Black inside, I've ended up going with the stock cockpit with a few modifications.

Just to add insult to injury, as I was doing a bit of research on the cockpit tonight, I found out that there's a Pavla replacement cockpit and canopy set, which I can't order now because they'd arrive too late to get the model finished on time... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

Two other problem areas are the intake, which has a ridiculously shallow tube on the back of it with a wierd step in it for good measure, and the jet pipe, which doesn't even have a tube and has no scallop on the bottom of the overhanging fairing, giving a ridiculous semi-circle shape. Both of those have been cut off/drilled out and tubes fabricated now: not easy since the thick fuselage plastic means there isn't as much room as you'd like, so the Dremel's been at work again.

Pics later...
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Dizzyfugu on May 28, 2017, 02:06:32 am
Beware of the canopy, if you want to cut it for an open position. It's 2mm thick, at least! And, yes, the Emhar Fury bears a lot of nasty little surprises...  :wacko:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 28, 2017, 04:08:44 am
Believe me, the camopy's staying firmly SHUT, with a pilot figure in there to cover it up as much as possible!

Some small progress.

Wing slots reinforced 'cos the widening was coming through to the inside in places.

Cockpit modified: spacer added to lift it up (pilot's too low), rear decking added (I know it's too low for the real thing but; don't care), much fettling to get even the standard parts to fit, and much Evergreen to get it all to line up easily when I'm putting the fuselage together.

Intake tube added. Not just a simple piece of tube, it had to be sanded/scraped to paper-thinness in places to get it to fit right over the nose gear bay, and it'll still need a bit of filler on the inside when it's done...  :banghead:

Exhaust tube added: aluminium with a black plastic end cap 'cos of wall thicknesses and clearances.

Wing slotted to take Fury pylons and IFR boom.

Arrestor hook plate filled and sanded ("can't have naval gear on an RAF plane dear boy!")

Not seen in this pic: forward gun tubes filled and sanded, holes drilled for the Swift tailplanes, Fury fin-tip reprofiled to more of a Swift-ish shape.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4217/35803750525_270f458d0f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WxRzDx)Fuselage mods (https://flic.kr/p/WxRzDx) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: zenrat on May 28, 2017, 04:24:26 am
Heh, spot the Airfix parts...   :rolleyes:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 28, 2017, 04:53:22 am
Heh, spot the Airfix parts...   :rolleyes:

Yeah: I think there's more fine detail in the Swift's undercarriage bays than on the whole of the Fury...
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 28, 2017, 07:26:41 am
Cockpit and wheels have black paint currently drying on them. White paint for misc bits coming up as soon as the dust settles up there...
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 29, 2017, 08:53:01 am
Fuselage together, complete with wing spars to make it all a bit more rigid:

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4241/34993742463_bd5704107e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Vjh5ti)Fuselage together (https://flic.kr/p/Vjh5ti) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr

Nice discovery today: the Fury's nose gear door, which the Emhar instructions have you fitting in the open position, was in fact almost always closed, even when the aircraft was parked. It may have drooped down eventually if left long enough, but since mine will have a pilot figure, I've glued it firmly shut (after trimming the too deep side of it and spacing out the too shallow side... :rolleyes: ), thus saving myself from having to put some detail in the totally blank and too-shallow bay.

Not so nice discovery today: I thought I had all of the rattle-can paints for this, but I don't. In fact, I have NONE of them. So an expensive visit will have to be paid to Hobbycraft tomorrow. I may have to go with acrylics too, since enamel spray paints are getting hard to find...

I'm substituting a pair of small Hawk tanks (prob. about 100 gal) as seen in the photo, and I'm fitting the Swift belly tank, which is also a convenient place to hide some extra nose weight since space in the fuselage nose is a bit limited.

Going to glue the wings on shortly... :-\
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Librarian on May 29, 2017, 09:58:02 am
I can still remember being over the moon when the Emhar Fury and Demon appeared, filling slots in my USN fighter evolution. Opened the boxes only to discover the moon has a dark side ;D. The Demon is really horrible.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Captain Canada on May 29, 2017, 11:03:23 am
Lots of bits and bobs going into this one ! Looks good !
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 29, 2017, 11:55:19 am
There's a kind of mission creep going on, where I put some more putty into the intake to smooth it out internally, the fumes melt a bit of the paper-thin plastic, and I have to use more putty to correct it, etc, etc to the point where the intake's going to be all putty before long.

Currently got the fuselage supported nose-up so that the fumes rise straight out of it ASAP in an attempt to halt this cycle.

Also, if you want to build the Fury yourself, do yourself a favour and cut the fuselage half locating-pins off: they're mis-aligned and do more harm than good!  :banghead:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: PR19_Kit on May 29, 2017, 02:19:31 pm
That doesn't sound too good H, but as usual you're overcoming it all.  ;D :thumbsup:

I've got an Emhar Fury, F-94C and Demon. I'm starting to wonder WHY I've got them.....  :banghead:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Gondor on May 29, 2017, 03:00:37 pm
That doesn't sound too good H, but as usual you're overcoming it all.  ;D :thumbsup:

I've got an Emhar Fury, F-94C and Demon. I'm starting to wonder WHY I've got them.....  :banghead:

Because you thought they were the only game in town for models of those particular aircraft perhaps?

Gondor
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 29, 2017, 05:07:11 pm
Also, they're cheap and easy to find at model shows, so you're tempted to fill a gap in your stash for a few quid.

Wings are on and puttied and yet another coat of putty is currently drying in the intake.... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: zenrat on May 29, 2017, 09:39:36 pm
What putty are you using if it's melting the model?  I haven't had that problem since I stopped using automotive knifing putty.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 30, 2017, 05:12:46 am
What putty are you using if it's melting the model?  I haven't had that problem since I stopped using automotive knifing putty.

Squadron White. It's only been melting the sanded-paper-thin Evergreen that I made the intake trunking from, and it's stopped doing that since I started supporting it nose-up so the fumes couldn;t stay in there. You couldn't melt Emhar's plastic with a blowlamp...
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Captain Canada on May 30, 2017, 05:42:15 am
lol good one. I just noticed that saying the name is fun....wait a few years until they develop the Supermarine Sapphire Super Sabre lol
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 30, 2017, 04:45:41 pm
First coat of primer and not looking too shabby if I do say so myself. Few minor tweaks, more primer, then we're into the paint.

Hobbycraft didn't have spray cans of the new RAF colours specified in the Swift instructions (160-odd series) so I had to settle for the tinlets, which means the airbrush will be getting an outing...

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4230/35763234846_4b52a9931e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WugVKm)Primer topside (https://flic.kr/p/WugVKm) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4263/35763247426_795befa594_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WugZuf)Primer underside (https://flic.kr/p/WugZuf) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: PR19_Kit on May 30, 2017, 06:17:17 pm
That's looking REALLY good H!  :thumbsup:

Those wings really suit the Fury, and I love the little dorsal intakes too.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: DogfighterZen on May 30, 2017, 08:06:00 pm
That's looking REALLY good H!  :thumbsup:

Those wings really suit the Fury, and I love the little dorsal intakes too.

Second that! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: rickshaw on May 30, 2017, 08:06:50 pm
I find the comments about the Emhar Fury interesting.  I'm presently working on one at the moment I've had none of the problems mentioned.   Admittedly, I've undertaken an extensive rhinoplasty and moved the Fury wings a little forward (about 8-10mm) in order to make the nose seem a little shorter.   So, I have had the problems with the nose or tail that you've mentioned.  I found the locating pins on the fuselage half were fine.   Perhaps it depends on which Fury kit you've got?   I've avoided the cockpit problems by the rhinoplasty which has resulted in me having to scratchbuilt a complete new cockpit.   Just hunting at the moment for some ejector seats to put in, which will largely fill it up.

Of course, our two models will be very different so can't really be compared.  Your conversion is a great deal more extensive than mine, in many ways.   Yours is looking very nice but I note the different number of location slots on the wing undersurface.  Why?    :thumbsup:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 30, 2017, 08:55:25 pm
I find the comments about the Emhar Fury interesting.  I'm presenting working on one at the moment I've had none of the problems mentioned.   Admittedly, I've undertaken an extensive rhinoplasty and moved the Fury wings a little forward (about 8-10mm) in order to make the nose seem a little shorter.   So, I have had the problems with the nose or tail that you've mentioned.  I found the locating pins on the fuselage half were fine.   Perhaps it depends on which Fury kit you've got?   I've avoided the cockpit problems by the rhinoplasty which has resulted in me having to scratchbuilt a complete new cockpit.   Just hunting at the moment for some ejector seats to put in, which will largely fill it up.

Of course, our two models will be very different so can't really be compared.  Your conversion is a great deal more extensive than mine, in many ways.   Yours is looking very nice but I note the different number of location slots on the wing undersurface.  Why?    :thumbsup:


Different number of slots left vs right =refuelling probe under one wing: yours should be the same.

Different numbers of slots vs the standard Fury = I was originally going to leave off the wing tanks entirely, but then I decided to replace them, and their pylons, with more 'British' ones from a Hawk. The Hawk pylons use pegs rather than tabs, so they have holes in the wing, not slots.

Once my fuselage halved were together, one half of the fuselage was up while the other was down, leading to having to sand the entire joint and lose any of the raised detail that crosses it.

In all fairness, the Emhar Fury is no worse than many an old kit from the 1960s, but a) it's not from the '60s (first released 1990), and b) I've got it right next to a new Airfix Swift which makes it look very, very sick by comparison...
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: zenrat on May 30, 2017, 10:51:08 pm
...(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d165/hws5mp/The%20Whiffery/NAS%20Saphire%20Sabre/Primer%20topside.jpg) (http://s35.photobucket.com/user/hws5mp/media/The%20Whiffery/NAS%20Saphire%20Sabre/Primer%20topside.jpg.html)...

Now that says "dragon" to me for some reason.  It's looking verr good indeed there.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Captain Canada on May 31, 2017, 11:19:19 am
Oh what a great shape that has !
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: kitnut617 on May 31, 2017, 12:09:19 pm
That looks great H, you've given me an idea ----  :wacko:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on May 31, 2017, 08:10:07 pm
Just tried hand-painting the LAG undersides so I didn't have to mess with the airbrush, and it looks.... sh, sh.... rubbish... :banghead:

Need to sleep now, so I'll do what I should have done in the first place and get the airbrush out in the morning. :rolleyes:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 01, 2017, 03:57:11 am
Okay I got an airbrush coat of Light Aircraft Grey on it this morning and it's looking a lot better. I think I over-thinned the paint when I tried to brush it last night: these newer Humbrols seem to be much thinner and finer than the old ones in the tin.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: NARSES2 on June 01, 2017, 05:12:19 am
Okay I got an airbrush coat of Light Aircraft Grey on it this morning and it's looking a lot better. I think I over-thinned the paint when I tried to brush it last night: these newer Humbrols seem to be much thinner and finer than the old ones in the tin.

They are indeed, especially since production has been brought back to the UK
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 02, 2017, 03:16:55 pm
So, a summary of the current paint saga:

1. Tried brush painting with Hu166 Light Aircraft Grey diluted roughly 4 paint: 2 thinners. Came out streaky 'cos it was far too thin.

2. Tried airbrushing with Hu166 Light Aircraft Grey diluted 4 paint: 4 thinners. Worked fine.

3. Tried airbrushing with Hu164 Dark Sea Grey diluted 4 paint: 4 thinners. Came out far too thin and watery and failed to cover. May also have blown under some masking  :banghead:.

4. Tried airbrushing with Hu164 Dark Sea Grey diluted 4 paint: 3 thinners. Worked fine.


It's the Hu163 Dark Green tonight: anyone want to take bets...?  :rolleyes:

In all fairness to the paint, step 3 above may also have been affected by a subtle airbrush malfunction.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: DogfighterZen on June 02, 2017, 07:04:42 pm
I always put some thinner in the airbrush's cup before pouring paint in there, then after paint goes in, i back flush it to mix the paint and thinner with the bubbling of the air, just put the lid of the cup on or else, you can easily press the trigger too far back and the paint just bubbles out of the cup...
If there's not enough thinner in the mix, you'll hear the air forcing it's way through and the spray will be very inconsistent, if any comes out at all.
One thing i find helpful to get it right if i'm in doubt before painting plastic is spraying it on a paper towel to see how it's flowing, if all's going normally then i'll spray the plastic. But i have to admit that now i only use Tamiya Acrylics, which are the easiest for me to buy at my LHS, and i'm so used to the ratio of Tamiya paint/thinner that most of the time i just pour both products into the cup, with only good ol' Mk.1 eyeball measurement, although some colors are a bit thicker than others so those get more thinner in the mix.
But results are very different with other paint/thinner brands, i gave up on Vallejo Air colors, the thinner didn't thin them and it was a PITA to get to work on the airbrush and then to clean it off... :banghead:
Hope you went with steps 2 and 4 this time... :thumbsup:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: zenrat on June 02, 2017, 09:36:24 pm
I thin Vallejo acrylics with tap water.  No problems other than those caused by my own incompetence.
Vallejo Air paint is supposed to be ready to airbrush and so shouldn't need thinning although I must admit some colours seem a bit thicker than others.

Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: PR19_Kit on June 03, 2017, 12:09:21 am
I use a paint brush.......  ;D
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 03, 2017, 01:54:21 am
I always put some thinner in the airbrush's cup before pouring paint in there, then after paint goes in, i back flush it to mix the paint and thinner with the bubbling of the air, just put the lid of the cup on or else, you can easily press the trigger too far back and the paint just bubbles out of the cup...

Sounds like a good tip, but since my airbrush is a single-action suction-feed type, I can't really use it.

Quote
If there's not enough thinner in the mix, you'll hear the air forcing it's way through and the spray will be very inconsistent, if any comes out at all.
One thing i find helpful to get it right if i'm in doubt before painting plastic is spraying it on a paper towel to see how it's flowing, if all's going normally then i'll spray the plastic. But i have to admit that now i only use Tamiya Acrylics, which are the easiest for me to buy at my LHS, and i'm so used to the ratio of Tamiya paint/thinner that most of the time i just pour both products into the cup, with only good ol' Mk.1 eyeball measurement, although some colors are a bit thicker than others so those get more thinner in the mix.

I test-sprayed the DSG on some cardboard before I started and it looked OK. It was only when it got on the painted undercoat that it looked too thin. I've now designated an old 1/48th F-19 shell as the airbrush station paint hack for future tests...

I use cheap syringes to measure out the paint and thinners fairly precisely. Having said that, the thinners does tend to make the markings come off the outside of them.. :banghead: Note that they have to be the type with one-piece plastic plungers: the type with a rubber 'piston' are no good for enamels because the thinners caused the rubber to expand. It's a good demonstration of how self-sealing tanks work, but lousy for measuring paint, unfortunately...

Quote
But results are very different with other paint/thinner brands, i gave up on Vallejo Air colors, the thinner didn't thin them and it was a PITA to get to work on the airbrush and then to clean it off... :banghead:

I'm used to Humbrol enamels, but the problem now is that the old ones and the new ones have different consistencies.

Quote
Hope you went with steps 2 and 4 this time... :thumbsup:

Problem was choosing between steps 2 and 4! I went with step 4 (4 paint : 3 thinners) and it worked OK this time. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 03, 2017, 01:56:32 am
I use a paint brush.......  ;D

I tried! :banghead:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 03, 2017, 02:07:36 am
Well the good news is that the Hu163 went on without a problem, the masking is off, and the it turns out that the DSG did not blow under some masking as I thought, so there's very little touch-up to do. This might also be because I abandoned the Blu-Tack-snake masking method and went back to cutting wavy edges out of 18mm Tamiya tape so I could burnish the edges right down. I've experienced some downsides to the snake method using enamels, notably that the thinners tends to make the Blu-tack extra-sticky and difficult to get out of deep cracks and holes like intakes and exhausts, leaving a residue. In fact, there have been times when I've given up and painted the Blu-tack black!

Couple of observations about the paints:

1. They seem very dark, particularly the DSG. I think they're accurate, but this might be one of those scale-colour issues where the full-colour paints work all too well at camouflaging the aircraft. It might also be because the Airfix instructions show the DSG as much lighter (almost as light as Light Aircraft Grey) but I suspect that's just for contrast to make it easier to seen the demarcations lines.

2. They're all supposed to be satin, but the DSG looks much more matt than the other two.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: kitbasher on June 03, 2017, 02:26:59 am
Hairy stick user myself, but comments about the Humbrol paints are still helpful.  Although I tend to use them as base coats for Xtracolor, they still need to go on well and I've noticed the thinness too. Streaky finish, needs two coats, etc.

BTW any plans to put the Fury wings on the Swift?  It'd be a shame to waste the leftovers.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Gondor on June 03, 2017, 03:25:46 am
I use a hairy stick as well although I have found that some metallic colours do not work well with that. I have a build stalled because of this and I don't like all the faf that goes with using an airbrush one of which I do own and will probably need a deep clean before I ever attempt to use it again :banghead:

Gondor
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 03, 2017, 03:54:03 am
Hairy stick user myself, but comments about the Humbrol paints are still helpful.  Although I tend to use them as base coats for Xtracolor, they still need to go on well and I've noticed the thinness too. Streaky finish, needs two coats, etc.

BTW any plans to put the Fury wings on the Swift?  It'd be a shame to waste the leftovers.

No, but the Fury wings will probably come in useful at some point because they're swept and tapered, which is relatively unusual.

I'm not a fan of the Swift, either aesthetically or technically, and I've already used the prettiest bits, so I suspect I'll end up using it as a parts donor more than anything. The cockpit is particularly nice, and with more time and nerve, I might have adapted it to the Fury.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 03, 2017, 09:03:16 am
Various little bits have been painted and assembled and I've just put the serial number decals on the underside because they overlap the pylons and I need them on and dry before anything else will fit. I thought for a while that I was going to have a problem with the wing's greater curvature causing the inboard pylons to point upwards, but I think (touch wood) that it's going to be okay. It's partly an illusion caused by the aircraft's tail-up flying attitude.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: The Wooksta! on June 03, 2017, 12:45:49 pm
The Fury wings with a bit of work would be a decent basis for the wings of a Supermarine 510.  I've seen it done with a Frog Attacker and a set of Sabre wings.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 03, 2017, 03:55:21 pm
The Fury wings with a bit of work would be a decent basis for the wings of a Supermarine 510.  I've seen it done with a Frog Attacker and a set of Sabre wings.

The FJ-4 wing is much thinner than even the F-86 wing though, so it's certainly much thinner than the 510's.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: The Wooksta! on June 03, 2017, 04:50:05 pm
Plastic card shim.  You'd need it if you were changing the location of the u/c bays.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 03, 2017, 08:19:30 pm
Plastic card shim.  You'd need it if you were changing the location of the u/c bays.

That might work for the inner wing if you did it at the leading edge, since the trailing edge is moulded in one piece with the upper surface. However the outer, folding section of the wing is moulded in one piece, so there's no way to make that thicker. I suppose you could just shim the leading edge wing root and then fill in the triangular gap that leaves.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 04, 2017, 03:20:10 pm
Supermarine's Swept-Wing Swan Song
The North American-Supermarine Sapphire Sabre

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4285/35763178426_e8363a9b0f_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WugCYA)
North American-Supermarine Sabre F.Mk.6 of No. 79 Squadron, RAF Germany, June 1958

The Brokensha Report of 1948 was applied to all areas of British government policy, and amongst many other things, it recommended that the UK cease development of military hardware that didn't either meet a uniquely British requirement or wasn't a commercially viable export proposition. The results varied: in some cases, such as naval and commercial aircraft, the policy was applied consistently with positive results, but in others the wheels came off pretty quickly as events conspired to thwart the best intentions of the planners.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4285/34993838773_b614d11fa0_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Vjhz6P)

One such area was land-based jet day fighters, which should have been a sure-fire export winner and therefore permitted under Brokensha. Britain led the world in jet engine development in 1948, and the existing Meteor and Vampire designs were racking up a steady stream of orders, however both designs were evolutionary dead ends which were incapable of being adapted to swept wings, which were the obvious next step in aircraft development. In fairness to the UK government, they recognised this and funded a series of swept wing development programs, but for a variety of reasons, such as Britain's financial position, the harsh winter of 1948 (which shut down test flying for a solid four months), some cases of sheer mismanagement and Britain's relative lack of access to advanced German aerodynamic data, none of these produced a result which could be placed into production on a timescale to compete with the American F-86 Sabre, which entered service in 1949.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4286/35763145526_7d1fcef288_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Wugtcm)

The advent of the Sabre led to a huge debate within the RAF, the various minstries and the government about whether to buy it or not. One school of thought held that Brokensha indicated that they should, while others argued that, since this was a potentially profitable export field, the UK should produce it's own competitor. The argument, which lead to yet more delay, was only resolved by the outbreak of the Korean War in 1950. The RAF suddenly needed a fighter that was competitive with the MiG-15 as an urgent operational requirement, not a future aspiration. Galvanised into action, the government initiated the 'Superpriority' scheme and struck a deal with the US: F-86s would be bought directly from the US and Canadian production lines as a temporary measure until a UK production line could be established. Supermarine, who had been hit particularly badly by the cancellation of the naval programmes, were ordered to set up licence production with all haste, while Metropolitan Vickers were similarly ordered to make the J-47 engine to go with it.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4256/34993852493_10bd020111_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VjhDbn)

Supermarine, proud of their heritage, hated this arrangment, but the political situation allied with their desparate financial straits left them no choice. The British Sabre line was set up, with the first deliveries commencing in 1952 and eventually running to several hundred aircraft in four marks as US developemtns were included. However, although this arrangement kept the company's production department busy, it did nothing for the drawing office and research and development department, who still yearned to get the swept wing they'd been working on into a production machine. Partly inspired by contact with their more commerical and 'gung-ho' colleagues at North American, Supermarine therefore drew up a design for a 'British-ized' F-86, with one of the new Armstrong-Siddeley Sapphire engines and their own wing design, and, in a bold move for the times, proposed it to the Ministry of Supply as a private venture initiative, the Type 525.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4237/35803813345_ca1db26f57_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WxRUjD)

Perhaps surprisingly, Supermarine's proposal got a positive response. There were many in both the RAF and the Ministry who had never been fully on-board with the increased dependence on American designs, and others had come to believe that too many contracts were being awarded to the Hawker Siddley Group. Supermarine had cannily proposed the Type 525 as a low-risk alternative to the latter's P.1067 Hunter project which had just been given the go-ahead and the idea of insurance-policy aircraft was valued at the time, the V-bomber programme being the most prominent example. An order was placed for the 525 straight off the drawing board, and Superpriority powers were used to make sure that the company had everything it needed.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4234/34963604164_f07b9a99c5_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VgBBps)

Changes to the F-86 were extensive. The whole fuselage had to be made deeper to accommodate the Sapphire and it's greater mass flow, and the opportunity was also taken to increase fuel volume. The new compound-sweep wing was much thicker than the Sabre's wing, which allowed it to house yet more fuel. A pair of ADEN cannons replaced the Sabre's 0.50 machine guns, and much British equipment was incorporated. North American helped and supported Supermarine with this process, and drew on much of the fuselage work in their own development of the F4-J3 and -J4 Fury fighters for the US Navy, but although they considered the British wing, they were far keener on their own development of a much thinner one which drew on the work they were doing for the supersonic F-100 Super Sabre.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4212/34993755483_e1c6d7ed77_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Vjh9kM)

The amount of work involved, which had been generally underestimated, lead to delays in development which soured the government's initial enthusiasm for the project, and the Sapphire Sabre didn't enter RAF service until 1955. These same delays also made sure that it had no chance of competing for the Fleet Air Arm's urgent requirement for a swept-wing fighter, which was easily won by Grumman-HSA's Cougar development of the in-service Panther. By the time the Sapphire Sabre entered service, the procurement landscape around it had also changed. After the end of the Korean War two years previously, more than half of the massive orders placed for the Hawker Hunter had been converted to it's more advanced P.1083 (F.Mk.6) variant, so the 525 was now being directly and unfavourably compared to an aircraft half a generation ahead of it, with supersonic performance and a radar. Indeed, the RAF let it be known that it was only continuing with the programme in order to evaluate a Sidewinder-armed aircraft against a Firestreak-armed one, and this did much to kill off prospects for export sales. Supermarine and North American had proposed an Avon or Sapphire-powered version of the F-100 Sabre to the same requirement as the P.1083, but it was rejected because it wasn't based on an existing type, even though the P.1083 was actually a substantially different aircraft to the earlier Hunters.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4257/35803779615_4c7f52129a_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WxRJi6)

The Type 525 was always known as the 'Triple S' (Supermarine Sapphire Sabre) within Supermarine, but the RAF refused to give it a new name, simply calling it the Sabre F.Mk.5. However within the service it's unofficial nickname was 'The Snake', since 'SSS' could be pronounced as a hissing sound. Development was limited to a second version, the F.Mk.6 with six pylons, a bolt-on refuelling probe and a belly tank for yet more fuel. Supermarine had high hopes for this version as a fighter-bomber, but the RAF was uninterested and refused to clear it for ground attack weapons. The Sabre 5s and 6s were generally as popular with pilots as their predecessors, the roomy cockpit being particularly well liked in comparison to the Hunter. The only problem encountered in early service was a tendency for the engine to flame out due to gun gas ingestion, but this was solved by moving the guns to a more rearward position.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4215/35415260370_2aef00c692_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VXwt4q)

The Sabre F.Mk.5/6 had a relatively short service career with the RAF and saw no combat in that time. Sabre squadrons were deliberately kept away from the Suez operation in 1956, allegedly to avoid confusion with US Navy Furies, but really because the government wanted to showcase the all-British and more easily exportable Hunter. Then, by the time Vietnam came along, the aircraft was already in the process of being withdrawn and replaced by the Mirage, the last few Sabres being flown by instructors at RAF Valley as MiG-17 simulators in order to train RAF pilots in dissimilar air combat.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4289/35671600741_70edd04ddd_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/Wmbh7Z)

Following Suez, the British government cooled considerably on the idea of being overly dependent on the Americans, and although many 'big ticket' development programmes were too far along to cancel, procurement decisions that could be placed elesewhere were, with political considerations overriding technical and military ones. This is the reason that the Dassault-Fairey Avon-Mirage was selected over Grumman-HSA's Avon-Tiger to replace the RAF's Hunters and Sabres, and similarly, the NBMR-1 winner (which turned out to be the Fiat G-91) was bought to replace the Vampire FB.5s in the close support role. Many in the RAF were unhappy with the latter decision, and would rather have seen the Sabres given a modest refit and cleared for ground-attack stores in order to do the job. However the government's mind was made up, and the Sabres were duly disposed of to export customers and the scrap yards. Production of new airframes ended in 1958, but Supermarine lingered on until 1963, surviving on support work for the exported Sabres, before being absorbed into the parent Vickers group and losing their identity. The Sabre therefore became the compay's first and last jet fighter. The last Sabre was withdrawn from service (as a trainer) in 1975, following the withdrawal from Vietnam.

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4242/35763210506_393953d3c2_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WugNvG)


Model Details:

Fuselage, missiles and pylons: Emhar FJ-4B Fury
Wings, tail, ventral tank, undercarriage and decals: Airfix Swift FR.5
Drop tanks: Airfix Hawk
Pilot: Revell Lightning F.6
Paints: Hunbrol enamels, Windsor and Newton inks

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4215/35415182780_30f83b6f8e_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VXw4ZE)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4284/35671609961_6993b1feff_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WmbjRX)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4206/34963554994_7deeaca8eb_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VgBmMG)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4255/35634515322_f4207cc5b7_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/WhUcVd)

(https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4259/34963613134_7010f3b56b_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/VgBE57)



Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Thorvic on June 04, 2017, 03:26:01 pm
Nicely done that man, it looks sort of right with the mix of parts   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Glenn Gilbertson on June 04, 2017, 03:39:43 pm
Almost believable & great modelling. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: sandiego89 on June 04, 2017, 05:06:30 pm
Wow, fantastic.  That wing shape really changes things.  Well done. 
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: AXU on June 04, 2017, 05:11:37 pm
Another great build in this GB  :wub: :thumbsup:
Well done sir !
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: McColm on June 04, 2017, 05:21:36 pm
Good job :thumbsup:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: jalles on June 04, 2017, 05:22:43 pm
That looks excellent!  Those wings compliment the fuselage shape perfectly.  Like the weapons loadout as well.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: DogfighterZen on June 04, 2017, 08:46:03 pm
That looks excellent!  Those wings compliment the fuselage shape perfectly.  Like the weapons loadout as well.

Second that, excellent work! :cheers:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Old Wombat on June 04, 2017, 09:16:29 pm
Great story. Great build. Both are fantastic! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: zenrat on June 05, 2017, 03:11:51 am
Good job H.
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 05, 2017, 04:03:59 am
Cheers folks, nuch appreciated. <_<

Something about the photography and/or the lighting makes the decals look really badly silvered, but they arn't nearly so bad when you see the thing in real life.

The decals presented a few odd difficulties. They wern't very sticky, and in the case of the big underwing series, the use of Microset caused some of the smaller sections to fail to adhere completely. By contrast though, both Microset and Microsol only just managed to make the fuselage roundels & bars conform over the raised airbrake details and they're still a bit ropey when you look closely.

The build could have been finished early in the evening, but I decided to give the tailplanes plenty of undisturbed drying time since their connection is a bit tenuous. I then found that my camera download software was playing up and that pushed the final upload back until I only just managed to squeak it in before the deadline... :rolleyes:
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: NARSES2 on June 05, 2017, 08:15:54 am
I like that. For some reason I can see her in extra dark sea grey over sky and FAA markings ?
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: strobez on June 05, 2017, 08:24:06 am
Man o man... it's hard to believe that's a total kitbash.  On the one hand, it looks totally natural... on the other, the construction was well executed so as to barely leave a mark.  Nicely done indeed.  Oh, and I really like that colour scheme.  I think I have to play more with dark blue/greys... they look smart.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Weaver on June 05, 2017, 08:18:31 pm
Man o man... it's hard to believe that's a total kitbash.  On the one hand, it looks totally natural... on the other, the construction was well executed so as to barely leave a mark.  Nicely done indeed.  Oh, and I really like that colour scheme.  I think I have to play more with dark blue/greys... they look smart.

Oh, there are plenty of marks, believe me....

Colours (all Humbrol) are:

Hu.163 Dark Green (BS381C 241)
Hu.164 Dark Sea Grey  (BS381C 638)
Hu.166 Light Aircraft Grey 

You may also want to play with:

Hu.123 Extra Dark Sea Grey
Hu.246 RLM75 Grauviolett
Hu.224 Dark Slate Grey
Hu.230 PRU Blue (BS381C 636)

Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Dizzyfugu on June 05, 2017, 11:38:27 pm
Very cool, and (with the elegant wings) very British, too.
Title: Re: North American Supermarine Sapphire Sabre
Post by: Captain Canada on June 07, 2017, 05:54:44 am
Thanks for the colours list, I was just about to ask !

That looks so good, and believable. A subtle whif for me ! I think it's an improvement on both aeroplanes.

 :thumbsup: