What if

Picture Post => Current and Finished Projects => Aircraft => Topic started by: PR19_Kit on September 26, 2014, 04:49:24 am

Title: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 26, 2014, 04:49:24 am
Well, almost predictable from me anyway.  ;D

As related elsewhere I've started work on one of my Airfix Lightning F2A kits, and I'm VERY impressed with it. Hardly needs any filing or sanding anywhere and is superbly engineered. The way the little fairing at the back of the cockpit interior fits EXACTLY onto the forward end end of the fuselage spine is a case in point, magnificently moulded.

Anyway the plan was to make a PR version with longer wings. Wow, what a surprise.  ;D I eschewed the ugly PR fit that the Saudis bought for four of their Frightenings and decided to put the cameras in the forward end of the belly tank only, where the ADEN cannon go on the F6 variant, and more of that later in the thread as I build it. Naturally it would need extended wings to get up higher  ;) and I planned to saw up one of my other F2As and add an extension with a lesser sweep back angle from the notches outward, looking a bit like the planned swing-wing Naval Lightning but with fixed outer bits and starting further outboard. So I got this far :-

(http://img913.imageshack.us/img913/8786/GMQbo4.jpg)


After a mammoth sawing, filing, fettling and fitting session y'day I'd assembled all the sawn up bits from the 2nd kit, for just one wing I might add, and glued it altogether and let it dry overnight. This morning I checked it out plugged into the fuselage to see how it looked......................

DISASTER!

An 'Epic Fail' to use a term I've picked up from a Canadian railway modeller I know. It looked really terrible, as if some extra bits had been tagged onto the wing tips, which is what it was of course, but it didn't work at all.

So the Lightning PR7 is going to have standard wings, but maybe I'll add a rocket booster or something. Or maybe not, we'll see as things progress.

Of course I've now got an F2A kit with only one wing, and ANOTHER F2A kit with only one wing too, as I had to use a good one to replace the terminally wrecked original.

What do you do with two Lightning F2As with only their starboard wings???  :unsure: :banghead:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: zenrat on September 26, 2014, 05:07:45 am
You use one to make a zwilling with another complete kit and use the other to make a land speed record car.

Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Captain Canada on September 26, 2014, 05:08:31 am
Too bad it didn't work out....what's in the picture, just the standard wings ? It would be nice to see a pic of the epic failure set of wings, so we can opine.

The Lightning wing looks like it's surface area can be enlarged by bringing the leading edge forward just after the kink.

And as for having a pair of fuselage with no wings, I'd say VG is the way to go there. A pair of naval birds. Make that naval PR birds.

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: eatthis on September 26, 2014, 05:22:26 am
re the rocket booster idea if you have a tsr2 ms (the manga special edition thing) that comes with 3 boosters, 1 for each wing and 1 that fits flush on the vert stab
(http://i46.tinypic.com/5v6oie.jpg)
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: TallEng on September 26, 2014, 05:40:53 am
Oh that's a bit worrying  :-\ if you can't pull off an wing extension job,
What hope have we mere mortals? We'll just have to turn to :drink:

Two thoughts, you could Vigganise one of the fuselages (Assuming you've a handy Viggan)
By adding the Viggan's wings to the Lightning Fuselage.
And for the PR version would it be possible using the various pieces of wing you've got
To Hunterise the wing? ( just tried that.... and any extension of wing length just doesn't work :banghead:)
Perhaps you could just get away with a Hunterlike leading edge extension for more area/fuel
Speaking of which you could also extend the belly tank for more fuel/bigger camera fit?
Like this;
(http://i980.photobucket.com/albums/ae284/Tourjet/LightningMod.jpg)

Regards
Keith
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Gondor on September 26, 2014, 06:29:48 am
That's bad news kit  :banghead:

Gondor
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: sandiego89 on September 26, 2014, 06:36:01 am
Could you mount one wing upside down?  Of course you would have to fill in the wheel well and rescribe a bit. 
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 26, 2014, 07:30:49 am
LOTS of good ideas there guys, thanks so much.  :thumbsup:

I'll draw my wing extensions plans for you Cap'n, in a fit of pique I snapped the modified one in half and binned it.

LOVE the idea about the fin mounted rocket booster Mr eathis, and I have one of the Manga TSR2s too, in gact I think I have two of them!

'Hunterising' the wing was pretty much what I was trying to do anyway Keith, but in a more drastic fashion. I'd had the extended belly tank in mind for a future build, so how did you do yours? It looks pretty darn good for sure. And I like the idea of Viggen wings too, or maybe something totally different instead. F-15 wings maybe? F-4 wings? I almost wrote 'F-104 wings' but that's patently STUPID!  ;D
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 26, 2014, 08:57:19 am
Here's the drawing of the 'Epic Fail'.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img537/2277/1iNwJN.jpg)
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: TallEng on September 26, 2014, 09:05:32 am
Ref 'How did you do that' in order to save clogging up Kit's post
With unnecessary  posts I've uploaded a modified version of my original
Lightning with extended belly tank ( See above) .

Regards
Keith
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: eatthis on September 26, 2014, 09:34:05 am
would f104 wings marry up to the wintips/outer wing of the lightning anywhere?
ps i lengthened my belly tank by chopping and moving the front then filling the resulting gap with a big drop tank (i THINK it was off a 32 scale f4 but im not sure)
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 26, 2014, 10:23:54 am
Thanks for that Keith and eathis, I'll try those ideas when I build my long tank Lightning.

I had a look at the F-104 wing as an extension but it has tapered leading and trailing edges and it's too darn small really. I'm OK with the standard wings on the PR7, a rocket booster and the colour scheme will make it different enough I reckon.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Thorvic on September 26, 2014, 10:41:44 am

What do you do with two Lightning F2As with only their starboard wings???  :unsure: :banghead:

Well you could ask if anybody has the spare upper wings after using the AlleyCat F1/F3 conversion and use plastic card to replicate the lwer wing.

You could also ask the infamous Airfix spares dept  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 26, 2014, 11:18:11 am

What do you do with two Lightning F2As with only their starboard wings???  :unsure: :banghead:

Well you could ask if anybody has the spare upper wings after using the AlleyCat F1/F3 conversion and use plastic card to replicate the lwer wing.

You could also ask the infamous Airfix spares dept  :thumbsup:

Ah, yes, presumably I'd still need some of the F2A wing to use an AlleyKat conversion, would I? I haven't looked at it in any detail as yet.

I don't think I've EVER used Airfix's Spares Dept., why are they infamous?
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: McColm on September 26, 2014, 11:28:06 am
The Almighty One makes mistakes as well, so there is hope for me.
You could build a stretched  fuselage version, if you have a set of RA-5C wings or Mirage wings. I've always thought that the Lightning should of had a delta wing fitted. Could look good with a T-tail.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Steel Penguin on September 26, 2014, 11:35:27 am
Kit  the Airfix spares department is   infamous  in the way that it is so far beyond famous that its "infamous"  Ive only had to ask any thing of them once,  and that was a couple of bits for a wif ( still planned)  they got the parts out to me toot sweet, and for gratis.  :bow:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Weaver on September 26, 2014, 11:59:31 am
I had a look at the F-104 wing as an extension but it has tapered leading and trailing edges and it's too darn small really.

F-5 wing as an extension piece? (Gets you a tip pylon too...)

As a complete wing replacement for the wingless wonders: Mirage III, Kfir (dirt cheap), SU-9/11/15 Rafale, Eurofighter, TSR.2.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: deathjester on September 26, 2014, 03:11:35 pm
Lightning PR7, with rocket booster, and cameras in the front of the belly tank??  This all sounds faintly familiar, in a Hemp over Black way... ;D
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: martinbayer on September 26, 2014, 03:37:26 pm
What do you do with two Lightning F2As with only their starboard wings???  :unsure: :banghead:

Somehow Tophe comes to mind...

Martin
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 26, 2014, 03:46:18 pm
Kit  the Airfix spares department is   infamous  in the way that it is so far beyond famous that its "infamous"  Ive only had to ask any thing of them once,  and that was a couple of bits for a wif ( still planned)  they got the parts out to me toot sweet, and for gratis.  :bow:

Oooh, I didn't know that, it might be worth a try then, thanks.


Lightning PR7, with rocket booster, and cameras in the front of the belly tank??  This all sounds faintly familiar, in a Hemp over Black way... ;D

Funny you should say that, did you build one then ?


Somehow Tophe comes to mind...

Martin

Hehehe, that HAD occured to me too, Tophe would think it was normal.  ;D
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 26, 2014, 03:57:55 pm
Lightning PR7, with rocket booster, and cameras in the front of the belly tank??  This all sounds faintly familiar, in a Hemp over Black way... ;D

Ahah, so you did, back in 2011, and I was very enthusiastic about it too. I've obviously a need for a memory upgrade.  ;D

For everyone else the build thread is here :- http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,30678.0.html (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,30678.0.html)

I think I'll have to change mine to a PR9 then as I've already built an F8 and think about a different colour scheme. The backstory of my PR9 is somewhat different as all 15 of the PR9s were converted from F2As and F6s after they'd been brought back from Germany and didn't have all that much performance improvement over the original fighters.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: deathjester on September 26, 2014, 04:10:14 pm
Cheers mate!  I was just debating whetherto cast about and find the PR7 build - I knew you wouldn't be able to resist a recon Frightening for long!  How about some totally different wings, say fixed versions of the F-111 wings??  And maybe some different engines - our research showed that the Spey 25R could be shoehorned in, perhaps slightly increase the rear fuselage diameter??
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 26, 2014, 04:19:23 pm
I may leave those upgrades to the PR10.  ;D
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: deathjester on September 26, 2014, 05:01:26 pm
Aha!  You've referenced it - now you have to do it :wacko:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: ChernayaAkula on September 26, 2014, 05:23:59 pm
<...> or maybe something totally different instead. <...> F-4 wings? <...>

F-4 wings sound good.  :thumbsup: But how to mount them? Keep the Lightning lay-out and use the F-4 wings in place of the Lightning's wings (with the ends turned down TSR.2-style?)? Or with the F-4 wing moved back and low (ends turned up), with F-4 or Lightning stabs for canards?

Or if it doesn't have to be Western, how about these wing-wings from a Su-17 Fitter? Mastercraft's Su-17 should be cheap and plentiful! Wing area is about the same when swept back and a little more when swept forward.

EDIT: Liked the F-4 idea so much I whipped up two three-views:

(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/ChernayaAkula/WhIf/lightning-phantom-wings-1_zps6f72ed03.png)

(http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m309/ChernayaAkula/WhIf/lightning-phantom-wings-canards_zps6a58a315.png)

Lighting and Phantom parts have the same scale. Only the F-4-stabs-turned-canards are smaller than their real-life counterparts.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: zenrat on September 26, 2014, 07:20:52 pm
If it's to be a PR bird then how about U2 wings...
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 27, 2014, 12:20:01 am
I love ALL of those ideas, specially the carnard Lightning.  :thumbsup:

That Corona PR1 looks the business too, although the wings could be a tad longer.  ;D

My concept is a tactical recce aircraft rather than a strategic type like the U-2, PR19 etc. Sort of a latter day Swift FR5, which is what triggered it off in the first place. The PR9s were all based in West Germany with a remit for pre- and post-strike recce of short range targets if the Red Hordes started playing games. All this in the early 80s when the RAF had no tactical recce types on their lists.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Gondor on September 27, 2014, 01:24:19 am
I love ALL of those ideas, specially the carnard Lightning.  :thumbsup:

That Corona PR1 looks the business too, although the wings could be a tad longer.  ;D

My concept is a tactical recce aircraft rather than a strategic type like the T-2, PR19 etc. Sort of a latter day Swift FR5, which is what triggered it off in the first place. The PR9s were all based in West Germany with a remit for pre- and post-strike recce of short range targets if the Red Hordes started playing games. All this in the early 80s when the RAF had no tactical recce types on their lists.

No dedicated built as tactical recce but what about the Jaguars of 2 and 41 Squadrons? And if you were going to make your Lightening as a Tactical Reconnaissance aircraft, why not just go with the camera fit as the aircraft would have to be fast in and fast out so larger wings would mean less manoeuvrability and more drag.

Gondor

Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 27, 2014, 09:20:52 am
I love ALL of those ideas, specially the carnard Lightning.  :thumbsup:

That Corona PR1 looks the business too, although the wings could be a tad longer.  ;D

My concept is a tactical recce aircraft rather than a strategic type like the T-2, PR19 etc. Sort of a latter day Swift FR5, which is what triggered it off in the first place. The PR9s were all based in West Germany with a remit for pre- and post-strike recce of short range targets if the Red Hordes started playing games. All this in the early 80s when the RAF had no tactical recce types on their lists.

No dedicated built as tactical recce but what about the Jaguars of 2 and 41 Squadrons? And if you were going to make your Lightening as a Tactical Reconnaissance aircraft, why not just go with the camera fit as the aircraft would have to be fast in and fast out so larger wings would mean less manoeuvrability and more drag.

Gondor

The Vinten pods for Jags were very unreliable and the RAF needed something 'quick and dirty'. That's my (back)story and I'm sticking to it.  ;D

That's exactly how I AM building it now, with just the camera fit, but with some extra tankage because of the heavy fuel burn at low level and a small amount of 'self defence'......  ;)
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Gondor on September 27, 2014, 11:37:44 am
I love ALL of those ideas, specially the carnard Lightning.  :thumbsup:

That Corona PR1 looks the business too, although the wings could be a tad longer.  ;D

My concept is a tactical recce aircraft rather than a strategic type like the T-2, PR19 etc. Sort of a latter day Swift FR5, which is what triggered it off in the first place. The PR9s were all based in West Germany with a remit for pre- and post-strike recce of short range targets if the Red Hordes started playing games. All this in the early 80s when the RAF had no tactical recce types on their lists.

No dedicated built as tactical recce but what about the Jaguars of 2 and 41 Squadrons? And if you were going to make your Lightening as a Tactical Reconnaissance aircraft, why not just go with the camera fit as the aircraft would have to be fast in and fast out so larger wings would mean less manoeuvrability and more drag.

Gondor

The Vinten pods for Jags were very unreliable and the RAF needed something 'quick and dirty'. That's my (back)story and I'm sticking to it.  ;D

That's exactly how I AM building it now, with just the camera fit, but with some extra tankage because of the heavy fuel burn at low level and a small amount of 'self defence'......  ;)

The Vitten pods were only added later in the Jaguar's service life, they started out with the BAC Reconnaissance pod and yes to start with navigation was shocking but it was improved upon fairly quickly.

Gondor
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 27, 2014, 12:59:38 pm
My backstory is adjustable to suit how my model ends up................  ;D :lol:

The wings are on now, and most of the odds and ends are on the fuselage too.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: eatthis on September 27, 2014, 01:24:04 pm
My backstory is adjustable to suit how my model ends up................  ;D :lol:

The wings are on now, and most of the odds and ends are on the fuselage too.  :thumbsup:

if its a full on low level photorecon job then surely you want a small wing for stability (and a bit of low level speed aswell), in fact why not get rid of the radar stick a metal nosecone on it and wind the mach numbers up it certainly had enough welly :)
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 29, 2014, 03:48:51 pm
Made  some good progress on the PR9 over the last few days, All the surfaces have been installed, the camera pod is glued and PSR'd (and was it EVER PSR'd....) in position, the RWR pod has been added to the top of the fin plus a small fin extension 'cos it looks good. The cockpit's done and dusted but it's masked over so I could prime the rest of the model.

The camera pod is the undernose fairing from a Hasegawa RF-4E, Gondor supplied me with BUCKETS of them a short while ago in the sure knowledge I'd find a use for them. Thanks Alastair, you were dead right.  :thumbsup:

I intend to sand off and polish the camera windows of the pod,  or I'm going to try anyway. If that doesn't work I'll go the black decal route. No-one will notice anyway as they point down.  ;D

(http://imageshack.com/a/img537/5759/owtdOS.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img537/3476/4rKTvi.jpg)
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: ChernayaAkula on September 29, 2014, 05:54:00 pm
Seamless modification!  :thumbsup: Using the photo nose for something other than a nose is a brilliant idea!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 30, 2014, 01:06:30 am
The problem with fitting a forward facing camera to a Lightning's nose is that it effectively HAS no nose!  ;D

I did toy with the idea of a larger 'radome'  housing a single camera but that radome and intake is 'part of the essential Lightning' and it just looked stupid and ugly too. Gondor's generosity has fed two of my PR projects so far and I have enough of those camera pods for two more I think. The world is my PR oyster.  ;D
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: TallEng on September 30, 2014, 04:08:06 am
I like that Mod. :thumbsup:
You'd never guess that it's a camera nose from a Phantom though.
Might try that on my next Lightning.. I'm sure it would fit in the front
Of an extended belly tank.
Just have to think of a colour scheme and user  ;D

Regards
Keith
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 30, 2014, 05:18:41 am
That's the later RF-4 camera nose I used there, with the curved forward facing window. The earlier one has a much sharper angled window and you get both types in the Hasegawa kit. Not only that, you get them in EVERY Hasgawa F-4 kit, even the fighter ones!

I thought the curved one fitted the look of the Lightning better, it almost mirrors the front end of the tank itself, but moved forward a foot or two.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Army of One on September 30, 2014, 05:44:56 am
Like how it ended up.......gotta say......I love the idea of the delta/canard lightning.......phantom wings you say.......oh, thats given me an idea......got an old airfix phantom I found when looking for something else.....parts missing.....but not the wings.......mmmmmm....
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Captain Canada on September 30, 2014, 07:39:12 am
Oh she's looking good now ! I love this aeroplane...can't wait to build a few more myself !

And I see what you mean by the aforementioned wing extensions......and let's not make mention of it again  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 30, 2014, 10:19:16 am
One of my three donor F2As will have to donate its canopy to the cause as I found an error on this otherwise magnificent kit. The windshield doesn't fit worth damn and needed so much filing to make it fit that I broke it.  :banghead:

I'll be a LOT more careful with the second one, but without wings AND a canopy it's lolking like I'll be building a 100% jet-lift drone out of the donor kit!  :o
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: kitnut617 on September 30, 2014, 10:37:05 am
The older Airfix Harrier GR.5/7 had a similar problem Kit, only it was the rear part of the canopy which was way too wide at the base. Trying to pinch it in so you can glue it down is very tricky, just a slight squeeze too much and  --- snap --- I've got four of the kits now without a rear part  ----   :banghead:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Gondor on September 30, 2014, 10:47:04 am

The camera pod is the undernose fairing from a Hasegawa RF-4E, Gondor supplied me with BUCKETS of them a short while ago in the sure knowledge I'd find a use for them. Thanks Alastair, you were dead right.  :thumbsup:


I have bought a couple more RF-4 kits since then Kit so I will probably be passing on a couple more under-nose fairings, probably via OGL. It has been my pleasure to supply you with those parts considering the help you have provided myself from time to time.  :thumbsup:

Gondor
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 05, 2014, 03:47:26 pm
I've got the colour coats on the PR9 now, but I'm not sure if  my slightly 'experimental' greys and greens work. I'd welcome comments on that front.

The main grey is just the basic Halfords Grey Primer with two coats of Klear on top. It's almost WWII RAF Ocean Grey but not quite. The green is a tad bluer than normal Humbrol Dark Green, and the underside is straight PRU Blue of course.

I've installed another canopy set with PVA glue and it's a lot better fit than the first one.

The third pic shows all the little add-on bits I've got to assemble yet, but I'll need to paint the gear wells and stuff first, and I'll probably decal the model beforehand as well. The new Airfix kits have ZILLIONS of stencil decals and putting them on with the tanks and wheels sticking out will just be an invitation to breakages.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img661/8595/w1wVSG.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img661/2360/6cEWrY.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img538/3773/g7ck3v.jpg)
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: pyro-manic on October 05, 2014, 04:52:06 pm
Are those tanks + 'Winders going on the cheek positions? That will look unusual! Colours look good to me.

:thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Captain Canada on October 05, 2014, 06:32:33 pm
Beauty. Love the scheme and the colours ! Lots of bits to attach still eh ?

 :cheers:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 06, 2014, 01:26:33 am
The smaller tanks, ex F-104G items, are going to be hung under the outer wings from the same hardpoints used by the Saudi and Kuwaiti AFs. The normal missile/lower gun bays are filled up with cameras.  ;D

I've also built some ex F-104 tip tanks, but they made the whole thing a bit too fussy looking.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Steel Penguin on October 06, 2014, 02:30:56 am
green and grey look good to me as well Kit ( normal caveats apply). but look as good as ever.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 06, 2014, 02:40:00 am
OK, thanks for the judgements on the colour. It'll look different with the decals on of course, and I may get some of them done today.

IF I can fix my car's driver's side windscreen wiper, just what you need when it's bucketing down of course.  :banghead: :banghead:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: NARSES2 on October 06, 2014, 07:17:38 am
Colours work for me Kit  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: zenrat on October 06, 2014, 09:33:57 pm
Me too.  Clearing primer is one of my favourite tricks.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 08, 2014, 01:40:07 am
Sometimes things just turn out RIGHT!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

I'd always planned the PR9 to be with 4 (AC) Squadron, a] Because it was my Dad's unit before WWII b] because they'd be returning to their almost traditional role of tactical PR as they did flying Audaxes and Lysanders etc. and c] because they flew Swift FR5s in conjunction with 79 Sqdn. early in the 50s.

Now in modern times, post WWII, 4 (AC) carried their Squadron colours on the nose or either side of the roundel in the shape of a black and red diagonally split rectangle on a gold background with a gold lightning stripe through the middle. Oh hell, it's easier to post a pic...........

(http://imageshack.com/a/img904/1530/gEFvgd.jpg)

Lightning F2As and F6s carried their squadron colours either side of the nose mounted roundel, like this, as seen on the Airfix box lid :-

(http://imageshack.com/a/img538/2717/pIX69l.jpg)

So I thought I'd combine the two and put the 4 (AC) Sqdn. colours either side of the roundel but of course they didn't exist in decal form anywhere as 4 (AC) Sqdn. never flew Lightnings in any shape or form. That meant I'd have to make them, so after hours of fiddling about with PaintShoPro I had my Squadron flashes drawn up, but they were TINY, like 4 mm wide maximum! To my mind the bits across the diagonal didn't look too much like lightning flashes but they were the only game in town so I printed them off.

While waiting for the varnish to dry I looked around for some underwing roundels as the kit ones are 3 colour and I wanted some 2 colour ones to go along with the low altutide scenario I had in my head. Lightnings had very small underwing roundels as the landing gear took up much of the wing undersurface, so looking for these things wasn't the work of a moment, but eventually I came across a small scrap of decal in amongst the VAST piles of them that I have filed away.

It was from a Harrier GR3 and they had small 2 colour underwing roundels too, EXACTLY the right size for what I needed, but even better, the sheet was for a 4 (AC) Sqdn. Harrier!  :thumbsup:

There were the nose badges for the GR3 just waiting to be trimmed and placed either side of the nose roundels and they were MILES better than the one's I'd drawn up! RESULT!  :thumbsup:  :cheers: :party: :bow:

The sheet also included the circular '4' badge that I promptly trimmed off and placed on the extreme nose of the PR9.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img538/2403/xfW7RU.jpg)

How about that for a stroke of luck then?  ;D

That last pic's about 4 times full size so you can see how small the badges are.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Knightflyer on October 08, 2014, 01:50:31 am
That's looking excellent Kit....serendipity at it's best eh!  ;D
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: TallEng on October 08, 2014, 02:00:11 am
Yes, that does look good :thumbsup:
Too late now I know, but I would have put the '4'
On the fin, as per their Sabre's and probably Hunter's too.

Regards
Keith
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 08, 2014, 02:44:19 am
I've printed up a small Squadron crest for the fin, the one in a ring with a crown on the top and a motto 'In Futurum Videre' (To see into the Future) underneath, as below. Then I have to find some fin codes but I must only have about 3 million of them in my decal collection!  ;D

(http://imageshack.com/a/img922/2823/doUg34.jpg)
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: NARSES2 on October 08, 2014, 07:46:41 am
Looking good Kit
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 08, 2014, 03:14:53 pm
Sometimes I think this stencillng lark can go too far.

The Airfix F2A and F6 kits are AWASH with stencil decals, almost 200 of the little blighters! I'm using some overwing tanks from an old FROG F6 but using decals for them from the Airfix F6 LTF Lightning, each tanks has SIXTEEN stencil decals, for goodness sake!  :banghead:

My PR9 won't have that many because the LTF ones are white, to show up on my dark grey tanks, and some are so tiny I can't see them on the backing paper so can't grab them with the pincers to apply them, madness!

Normally I really enjoy the decal pase of a build, it's when the model becomes 'alive', but this is starting to be a real pain and I'm only about 1/4 of the way though this bit so far.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Captain Canada on October 08, 2014, 03:59:35 pm
Don't you just love it when a plan comes together ? Or just falls together !

 :cheers: :wub: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: NARSES2 on October 09, 2014, 07:05:54 am
Normally I really enjoy the decal pase of a build, it's when the model becomes 'alive', but this is starting to be a real pain and I'm only about 1/4 of the way though this bit so far.

I know what you mean Kit. I find the transfer stage not only brings a model to life but can also turn a model you are a bit iffy about into one you actually like  ;D

As for stencils ? Most of my builds don't have many (are they a phenomenon of the jet age ?)  and even then some of them don't get used. To be honest they actually spoil the look of some models IMHO. Some of the models of Japanese F4's/F15's you see look like advertising billboards and just do not look right to my eye. Totally personal opinion and I know others will hold the opposite view and that's perfectly acceptable to me  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 09, 2014, 04:47:09 pm
I'm doing the 'bare minimum' with the stencils on the PR9, it took me over an hour to do the 2nd overwing tank today, and I've only used 8-9 of the intended 16 stencils. Life's too short.  :banghead:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: pyro-manic on October 09, 2014, 06:16:14 pm
Sometimes they're needed, particularly on flat, boring schemes (eg most modern ones!) to break things up and add interest. They're much less needed on more interesting schemes. IMO, of course. I tend to to the "major" markings first - roundels, squadron badges, walkway/no step lines and so on - then add a few stencils at a time (starting with important ones like warning labels), and just stop when I think I've added enough. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: NARSES2 on October 10, 2014, 07:29:02 am
If I were building modern (grey aircraft) that would be exactly my approach  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 10, 2014, 10:16:46 am
Half of the PR9 is grey and half is green, and the third half is blue......

Maybe I'll just stencil the grey bit?  ;) ;D :lol:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Rheged on October 10, 2014, 12:40:31 pm
...the third half ......


An interesting mathematical concept.......
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: eatthis on October 10, 2014, 01:47:44 pm
Half of the PR9 is grey and half is green, and the third half is blue......

Maybe I'll just stencil the grey bit?  ;) ;D :lol:

that doesnt leave many bare metal halves ;)
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 10, 2014, 03:15:17 pm
Half of the PR9 is grey and half is green, and the third half is blue......

Maybe I'll just stencil the grey bit?  ;) ;D :lol:

that doesnt leave many bare metal halves ;)

True, but on painted Lightnings the only bare metal bits were the inlets, the exhausts and a small bit under each wing root. That makes six halves I think..............  ;D :lol:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: zenrat on October 11, 2014, 02:53:19 am
Six (swift) halves?  I used to call that lunch...
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 11, 2014, 01:41:01 pm
I never thought I'd say this, but decalling this PR9 is driving me NUTS!  :banghead:

I'm not applying all the ones on the sheet by any means, but even so there's loads of the darn things. I want to get the landing gear fitted and then I can add all the bits and pieces, but it's taking an age to get that far.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 13, 2014, 02:41:05 am
Right, that's it!  :banghead:

I've had enough of this stupid stencilling, I can't see most of them anyway and the model will look as if it's been shot blasted if I add any more. I'm going to be looking out for RW models of F2As and F6s at Telford to see if their builders have plastered their models with them.

Final assembly today and tomorrow, followed by the tiny bits and pieces that I've forgotten to paint of course.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img537/2618/1IktjH.jpg)

(http://img910.imageshack.us/img910/6738/A2D4x9.jpg)
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: zenrat on October 13, 2014, 04:07:11 am
So the black squares on the bottom are the camera windows?

Looking good.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 13, 2014, 04:28:16 am
So the black squares on the bottom are the camera windows?

Looking good.

They are indeed, but I'm just doing some Mk 2 windows with frames and some 'reflection marks' which I'll apply on top of the existing ones. I think they look a bit too plain as they are.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: sandiego89 on October 13, 2014, 08:21:11 am
The recce windows turned out great! 

Also think you stopped at the right time with the stenciling, there is indeed a thing as "too much" in this scale.  You got the important ones.

-Dave "sandiego89"
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Captain Canada on October 13, 2014, 08:24:33 am
Very nice. Love the underside colour, really makes this one stand out.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Weaver on October 13, 2014, 08:34:16 am
This is looking great Kit: the PRU blue really suites it.

The recce windows turned out great!  

Also think you stopped at the right time with the stenciling, there is indeed a thing as "too much" in this scale.  You got the important ones.

-Dave "sandiego89"

Yep, I agree. In hindsight, I wish I hadn't religiously put all the stencil decals on my aggressor Su-15. A lot of them are big, red rectangles, and they stand out more than the national markings.... :banghead:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 13, 2014, 11:03:43 am
AAAGGGHHHHH!!!!    :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I've got the gear installed OK, and started to attach the overwing tanks. Scraped off the paint where the pylon would fit and did the same on the pylon itself, applied the glue (not much of course) and placed the tank on the wing, ensuring it was vertical. Held up the model to check the  alignment and the tank tipped over and fell off...........

....... onto the floor (I heard it hit the floor) and it vanished totally!

I've moved everything in sight, got two powerful torches and just can't find it.  :banghead:

That brings the build to a grinding halt as I can't just fit one tank and although I could use the tanks from the Airfix F6 I've already used all the decals. As most of them are white I can't print any off so the only solution is to buy another F6 kit, 17.00!!!!!  :o
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Martin H on October 13, 2014, 11:22:19 am
take a deep breath. Leave the room for a few hours, calm down then have another look.

Doesnt always work but better than the bull in a china shop meathod.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: pyro-manic on October 13, 2014, 11:46:03 am
Yup, leave it a bit and come back later with a cool head. It'll turn up. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 13, 2014, 12:51:45 pm
I went straight back in there and stripped that end of the model room out, and all the stuff is now in the bathroom....

With the aid of a big floodlight I found the damn thing!  :thumbsup:

It had bounced about 9" off the floor, went sideways about a foot and dropped into the box I use for storing old tyre balance weights for nose weight. Of course they're grey and sort of cylindrical and so is the tank!  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

It's now glued onto the wing and wedged in place with some Blu-Tak!
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: nighthunter on October 13, 2014, 02:09:43 pm
Yay!
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: zenrat on October 14, 2014, 03:56:55 am
Phew.

I was about to suggest dropping the second one to see where it went...

Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 14, 2014, 03:59:31 am
Phew.

I was about to suggest dropping the second one to see where it went...

Hehehe, a technique I've actually used in the past too! On one occasion I tried that and the SECOND bit got lost as well!  :banghead:

The PR9's almost done now, all the bits are on and the satin varnish is being applied, surface by surface.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: McColm on October 14, 2014, 04:07:55 am
Its good to know that other Whiffers or Whiffees have the same problems as me whilst building their creations. That's why my spare parts bin was so large.
My ex-landlady keeps finding parts whilst decorating the room. Should have a full shoebox next time I see her.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Weaver on October 14, 2014, 05:22:42 am
Hate it when that happens, still, congrats on the recovery.

My worst "drop" wasn't a model part, it was the 2mm detent ball bearing from a motorcycle handlebar switch, dropped on a black tarmac drive, at 9pm, just as it was starting to rain, with no spare available and the bike needed for work the next morning. Found it with a magnet and a torch. At 12.15pm......
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 14, 2014, 06:17:57 am
Hm, yes. Does anyone make a plastic magnet? I'd have 5 or 6 of them!
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 14, 2014, 07:30:22 am
OK, the PR9's about done.

 As explained above, the model started life as an Airfix F2A, and I've added an undernose camera fairing from a Hasegawa RF-4, the later version with the curved forward window. The overwing tanks came from an old FROG Lightning F6 but with some stencil decals from the new Airfix F6 kit. The underwing tanks are from the Heller F-104G and the Sidewinders and their launch rails came from the spares box.

 Camo scheme is the same as used by some Lightnings at Binbrook in the mid-70s but with the slightly lighter grey produced by just applying Klear varnish over Halfords Grey Primer, the underside being PRU Blue. Decals are mostly from the F2A kit but with the 4 (AC) Squadron nose markings from an unknown Harrier kit, the camera windows and the fin badge being home printed.

 The back story is here :- http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,39534.msg655143.html#new (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,39534.msg655143.html#new)

and from that you'll glean that this model is XN781, one of the aircraft depicted in the Airfix kit, an ex-19 Sqdn. F2A converted to a PR9. When the aircraft arrived back at Gutersloh after conversion the ground crew, knowing the aircraft from before, re-applied the yellow 'Boss Cat' badge under the windscreen and thereafter '781 became the squadron Commander's aircraft.

(http://img911.imageshack.us/img911/4654/Q3G7wK.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img537/759/GFN19W.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img538/7808/LgxHdP.jpg)

The updated camera windows didn't show up as well as I'd hoped so I gave up on that idea. I've added a squadron crest to the port fin, but left it off the starboard one for the moment, and I've not varnished either fin so far. I'm in two mind about whether it works or if it's too fussy.

What does the panel think? I can either peel off  the one that's there or add the other one.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img661/3089/j3hbAV.jpg)

(http://img905.imageshack.us/img905/5032/NmCnSf.jpg)
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: NARSES2 on October 14, 2014, 07:58:16 am
Predictable it may be but it's good as well

Personally I think the Squadron Crest looks fine if she's a display bird, but a little fussy if she's on alert for some reason. I know that's not an answer but it's what hits me - sorry.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: eatthis on October 14, 2014, 01:35:26 pm
looks absolutely plausible :)
i have a vague recollection of reading they thought about fitting wingtip ir missile rails tapping into the nav lights wiring for power do you know anything about that?
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 14, 2014, 03:18:46 pm
looks absolutely plausible :)
i have a vague recollection of reading they thought about fitting wingtip ir missile rails tapping into the nav lights wiring for power do you know anything about that?

That does ring a bell woth me too, I'm pretty sure I've seen drawings of that installation as well. I did think of adding wing tip tanks or missiles to the PR9 but it's already got seven or eight 'sticky forward' things on it already!  ;D
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: The Rat on October 14, 2014, 03:28:32 pm
Great idea, and well executed!  :cheers: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: kerick on October 14, 2014, 07:23:00 pm
Lots of nice work there! Nice story too!
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Captain Canada on October 14, 2014, 07:52:34 pm
Very nice. Love the weapons load. Looks right to me !

 :cheers:
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: TallEng on October 14, 2014, 08:53:02 pm
Looking good  :thumbsup: I especially like the stencil detail on the Sidewinders,
Makes them look a lot better.
The Squadron badge on the fin looks to me to be too big, it reminds me of one of II(AC)'s Jaguar special
Schemes withe a big full colour Squadron badge on a black fin.
If you wanted a Sqn. Badge on the fin I'd suggest one about 1/4 the size positioned above
The Fin flash. (Buts that's just me :rolleyes:)

Regards
Keith
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: PR19_Kit on October 14, 2014, 11:42:37 pm
Thanks for the enthusiasm gentlemen, it did turn out pretty much as I envisaged it before the build started, and I'm glad I gave up on the wing tip tank idea, it's spikey enoigh as it is! This morning one overwing tank is leaning at a drunken angle after two attempts at glueing it into position, I think superglue is called for....  :banghead:

I sized the squadron crest to be the same as the ones carried by 19 and 92 Sqdns. in their F2As, as supplied in the original kit. The primary problem making it any smaller is trimming the decal to shape as it has to be printed on white decal paper to get the colours right. It was difficult enough as it is, any smaller and I'd need an electron microscope!  :o

I looked at it more and more y'day evening and I think I'll delete it, as Chris said it's just a bit too fussy.

Amazingly the decals on the 'winders consist only one one piece. They come from the late lamented Airfix weapons set and the brown and yellow rings are just one decal, the rest of the 'detail'  is strategically placed black paint.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: Thorvic on October 15, 2014, 12:12:37 am
Looks good kit, BTW the 4 sqdn badge was used on the Harrier retirement scheme in 2010 and is available in either the History of 4 Sqdn or the harrier retirement sets by Xtradecal. Might be worth asking around to see if anybody has those decals in 1/48th for you to use.
Title: Re: The almost predictable Lightning
Post by: zenrat on October 15, 2014, 01:38:13 am
Good job.  I'd be tempted to leave it with just one crest and see who notices.