What if

Picture Post => Current and Finished Projects => Aircraft => Topic started by: Bungle on September 09, 2014, 08:26:58 am

Title: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: Bungle on September 09, 2014, 08:26:58 am
First : What Flyer wants, Flyer gets.

This little conversation went on in the The Idea Bank / What do you plan to build in near future? thread discussing post war Mistel combinations



Also thinking of an American Mistel using a Twin Mustang not sure what to use with it though.

Actually thinking more along the lines of a P-61 with the F-82 on top.

Problem is I haven't got a Black Widow in the stash. Got an old Hawkeye but then the new / old ages are the wrong way round.

Find a P-61 as that Hogsback ;D combo sounds awesome, I wanna see it! :cheers:

So here for Mr/Miss/Mrs/Ms/Senhor/Senhora/Senhorita/Domnişoară/Doamnă/Domn/Pan/Pani/Panna/Signore/Signora/Signorin/Señor/Señora/Señorita/Meneer/Mevrou/Mejuffrou/Herra/Rouva/Neiti/Herr/Fru/Fröken/Ginoo/Binibini/Ginang Flyer I suggest the USAF Hogsback Bomber.

Blimey going to have to have a lie down after that lot Part Two - The backstory to follow :



Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: Bungle on September 09, 2014, 08:49:19 am

Korea

November 1950

Wednesday

In November 1950, it was becoming apparent that the Chinese were manoeuvring to take part in the Korean shindig. General MacArthur ordered UN Forces to intensify their airborne attacks on enemy communications supply routes and troop movements.

One such area of interest were bridges over the Yalu River, the border between Korea and Manchuria. Previously this was a no go area to air assault due to the closeness of Chinese personnel actually in China !  MacArthur argued that the Yalu bridges were of great importance to the Chinese for whatever their intentions were in Korea. The sensitivity of not wishing to provoke any international incident by bombing Chinese soil it was deemed that using the B-29 Superfortress in high level raids for such a bombing mission was both high risk and of dubious accuracy. At that time penetration into Manchurian/Chinese airspace was strictly prohibited making approaches to the target difficult, especially as the aviators were not to return fire on the hostile forces on the Chinese side of the river. The UN Airforce needed a quick in and out attack that was highly accurate.

Initial attacks by Skyraiders and Corsairs had little success because of limited payload they could deliver. Bridges were hit but no killer blow achieved on the major targets. Add to this the sudden intervention of the Chinese MiG-15s and the UN Forces were struggling to even get to the target. What was needed was something faster and with a greater payload.

Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: Bungle on September 09, 2014, 01:49:48 pm
The North American/Northrop Hogsback

Based on the Luftwaffe Mistel concept the US Airforce decided to team up the North American F-82 Twin Mustang with surplus Northrop P-61 Black Widows.

The P-61 was packed with high explosive and napalm and was, of course, unmanned. The pilot in the port Mustang flew the contraption when coupled, the starboard pilot flew the P-61 by radio control once released from its host.

(http://imageshack.com/a/img540/2672/7QPcQn.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img540/188/SnMVuX.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img904/793/9SHLnd.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img537/4996/bgTrTY.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img661/6093/OL70by.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img540/7056/qKBtcX.jpg)

(http://imageshack.com/a/img661/5090/35lBiG.jpg)

Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: Dizzyfugu on September 10, 2014, 03:16:33 am
Wild!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: Captain Canada on September 10, 2014, 05:33:00 am
That's a neat little scenerio you two have brewed up there ! Would have made a few holes in things that's for sure ! Love the colours and camo on the Mustang.

 :cheers:
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: NARSES2 on September 10, 2014, 07:38:36 am
That is nice sir  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: kitnut617 on September 10, 2014, 08:00:35 am
Interesting idea  :thumbsup:

I see you used the Hobbycraft boxing of the F-82  ;)
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: Bungle on September 10, 2014, 12:22:09 pm

I see you used the Hobbycraft boxing of the F-82  ;)

Actually it was the Idea boxing

(http://imageshack.com/a/img538/96/XyuHLT.jpg)

Not the most pleasant of kits  :unsure:
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: kitnut617 on September 10, 2014, 12:49:59 pm

I see you used the Hobbycraft boxing of the F-82  ;)

Actually it was the Idea boxing

(http://imageshack.com/a/img538/96/XyuHLT.jpg)

Not the most pleasant of kits  :unsure:

That's interesting because I noticed that the two propellers turn in the same direction, which is the same as what the Hobbycraft kits have their propellers doing (got two of them myself).  The two Monogram/Revell and the one RoG  kits I also have, have the propellers counter rotating. My 'Big Book' says the Idea kit is a Mongram re-boxing which doesn't seem to be right.  Apart from that the kits are identical to each other.
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 10, 2014, 02:11:20 pm
Aren't all the P-82 kits on the market either re-pops of the original Monogram kit or cribbed off it?

I was always under the impression that the Hobbycraft kit was cribbed off it, but if so why the devil did they go to the bother of getting the props WRONG!?

There was a rumoured FROG P-82 as well, but I've never seen one, and I don't know anyone who has either.
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: kitnut617 on September 10, 2014, 02:33:37 pm
Aren't all the P-82 kits on the market either re-pops of the original Monogram kit or cribbed off it?

I was always under the impression that the Hobbycraft kit was cribbed off it, but if so why the devil did they go to the bother of getting the props WRONG!?

There was a rumoured FROG P-82 as well, but I've never seen one, and I don't know anyone who has either.

Well here's something interesting out of the 'Big Book' -- all 1/72 F-82's: Aurora, Frog (reboxed by BFI, Novo, Revell), Hobbycraft, Monogram (reboxed by Arc en Ciel, Hasegawa, Idea, Taka)

Edit: Looking at the listings on Scale Mates, the Frog kit was only produced as 'test shots' -- which is probably why no one has seen a proper boxing from them, for that it would have been Novo, because this was the company that was set up after Frog closed down.  It's basically Frog but under a different name.

Also looking at photos of other peoples builds of the F-82, I notice a lot of people put the props on the wrong way around for the kits that do have counter-rotating props.

Edit2: The 'Big Book' has the Frog kit listed as F405 (TM), TM being 'Test Moulds' and these appeared right when Frog closed down.
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 10, 2014, 04:33:12 pm
Aren't all the P-82 kits on the market either re-pops of the original Monogram kit or cribbed off it?

I was always under the impression that the Hobbycraft kit was cribbed off it, but if so why the devil did they go to the bother of getting the props WRONG!?

There was a rumoured FROG P-82 as well, but I've never seen one, and I don't know anyone who has either.

Well here's something interesting out of the 'Big Book' -- all 1/72 F-82's: Aurora, Frog (reboxed by BFI, Novo, Revell), Hobbycraft, Monogram (reboxed by Arc en Ciel, Hasegawa, Idea, Taka)

Edit: Looking at the listings on Scale Mates, the Frog kit was only produced as 'test shots' -- which is probably why no one has seen a proper boxing from them, for that it would have been Novo, because this was the company that was set up after Frog closed down.  It's basically Frog but under a different name.

Also looking at photos of other peoples builds of the F-82, I notice a lot of people put the props on the wrong way around for the kits that do have counter-rotating props.

Edit2: The 'Big Book' has the Frog kit listed as F405 (TM), TM being 'Test Moulds' and these appeared right when Frog closed down.

Lots of clarificartion there Robert, thanks so much.  :thumbsup:

As to fitting the props the wrong way round, if they'd have it backdated with Merlins it'd have been the prototype. NA built it with opposite rotating props but found there wasn't enough lift as the propwash over the centre section negated any lift it was producing. How bizarre is that?
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 11, 2014, 03:37:33 am
They did.

The prototype was built with the props rotating outward at the top and the combined upwash on the underside of the wing centre section decreased the lift there. They swapped engines so that the props rotated inward at the top and that cured the problem and all production P-82s were bult that way.

I would imagine that the 'tunnel effect' of the two fuselages improved the overall lift available from the centre section, which is why the prop rotation had such a marked effect.

It doesn't help the modeller that so many drawings of the P-82 are drwan with both props rotating the SAME way, presumably because the lazy draughtsmen (or women...) copied the nose froma P-51 drawing.
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: kitnut617 on September 11, 2014, 06:12:15 am
Only one P-82 had the props rotating the same way, the P-82A which was an Allison engine version (which wasn't proceeded with). Even though the Hobbycraft (and the Idea) kit have them rotating in the same direction, they have them rotating in the wrong direction, I'm saying that because all the Allison engines before the F-82E rotated the prop in the other direction to which those kits have them.
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: kitnut617 on September 11, 2014, 06:17:12 am

 couldn't they simply swap over the engines


Well, a bit of trivia,

Originally, the DH Hornet's props turned in the direction a P-38's did, some aerodynamic problems created by this arrangement caused the engineers to swap the engines over and had the props turning like the P-82's
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: kitnut617 on September 11, 2014, 06:20:29 am

Lots of clarificartion there Robert, thanks so much.  :thumbsup:


The 'Big Book' usually shows which kit got reboxed by another manufacturer, but it doesn't explain why all the kit parts are practically interchangeable (That's not including the latest kits from Special Hobby)
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: kitnut617 on September 11, 2014, 07:36:19 am
It doesn't help the modeller that so many drawings of the P-82 are drwan with both props rotating the SAME way, presumably because the lazy draughtsmen (or women...) copied the nose froma P-51 drawing.

That could possibly originate from the 'Aircraft of the Fighting Powers' Vol.VII book, the 3-View shows them to rotate that way.  The information that they used at the time could possibly be because the XP-82 did have the props turning that way before they changed it.  But I think the story about it not being able to get off the ground is a bit of a myth, because the aircraft was used and tested with a number of load-outs while the props did turn opposite to how production aircraft were configured (there's quite a few photos around to show this)
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 11, 2014, 07:58:19 am
It doesn't help the modeller that so many drawings of the P-82 are drwan with both props rotating the SAME way, presumably because the lazy draughtsmen (or women...) copied the nose froma P-51 drawing.

That could possibly originate from the 'Aircraft of the Fighting Powers' Vol.VII book, the 3-View shows them to rotate that way.  The information that they used at the time could possibly be because the XP-82 did have the props turning that way before they changed it.  But I think the story about it not being able to get off the ground is a bit of a myth, because the aircraft was used and tested with a number of load-outs while the props did turn opposite to how production aircraft were configured (there's quite a few photos around to show this)

The book I have that mentioned the decreased lift said the aircraft took much more runway to get off than predicted with the outward turning props.
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: loupgarou on September 11, 2014, 03:06:49 pm

Well here's something interesting out of the 'Big Book' -- all 1/72 F-82's: Aurora, Frog (reboxed by BFI, Novo, Revell), Hobbycraft, Monogram (reboxed by Arc en Ciel, Hasegawa, Idea, Taka)

Edit: Looking at the listings on Scale Mates, the Frog kit was only produced as 'test shots' -- which is probably why no one has seen a proper boxing from them, for that it would have been Novo, because this was the company that was set up after Frog closed down.  It's basically Frog but under a different name.

Edit2: The 'Big Book' has the Frog kit listed as F405 (TM), TM being 'Test Moulds' and these appeared right when Frog closed down.

Can confirm it, I have a Novo one.
BTW; what's the Big Book? John Burns' PAK 20?
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: kitnut617 on September 12, 2014, 06:08:54 am
Can confirm it, I have a Novo one.

It would be interesting to compare the parts  ;)


BTW; what's the Big Book? John Burns' PAK 20?

Yes   :thumbsup:  plus I have the four addendums for it (there aren't anymore after that because John Burns retired)
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 12, 2014, 08:56:45 am
Can confirm it, I have a Novo one.

I'd LOVE to see some pics of that!  :thumbsup:

I didn't know any got out into the world and makes me wonder why Novo didn't keep on making them.

Or maybe the ones they DID sell were ex-FROG moulded test shots and they didn't have the moulds?
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: loupgarou on September 13, 2014, 02:23:54 pm
Can confirm it, I have a Novo one.

I'd LOVE to see some pics of that!  :thumbsup:

I didn't know any got out into the world and makes me wonder why Novo didn't keep on making them.

Or maybe the ones they DID sell were ex-FROG moulded test shots and they didn't have the moulds?

Your wish is my command (or something like that  ;D ) my dear Sir. Here you are.
BTW, I didn't know it was considered rare, I supposed had been reissued by all the usual post-Frog brands: Chematic, Eastern Express, maybe Ark, Maquette etc... BUT if Revell has reissued it, as posted here, maybe Revell bought the moulds, so no more east Europe issues.
NOTE:
- usually Novo kits have the Frog Fxxx item number, this one has a 5-digit number.
- instructions look froggish to me
- drawing 3 of the instructions specify which propeller must go where, very serious.

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee209/loupgarousocialclub/whif/th_IMG_6488.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/loupgarousocialclub/media/whif/IMG_6488.jpg.html)  (http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee209/loupgarousocialclub/whif/th_IMG_6493.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/loupgarousocialclub/media/whif/IMG_6493.jpg.html)  (http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee209/loupgarousocialclub/whif/th_IMG_6492.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/loupgarousocialclub/media/whif/IMG_6492.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: kitnut617 on September 13, 2014, 03:26:58 pm
Well I think we can dispel any connection there to any of the Revell/Monogram/Hobbycraft boxings that I have. But it's definitely an Allison powered version --

- usually Novo kits have the Frog Fxxx item number, this one has a 5-digit number.

Not according to the 'Big Book' they all start with 76 or 78 and are 5 digit numbers

Thanks for posting that --  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: PR19_Kit on September 13, 2014, 03:51:26 pm
That's terrific, thanks so much.  :thumbsup:

I feel like I'm in a time warp.  ;D
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: loupgarou on September 14, 2014, 03:54:20 am

- usually Novo kits have the Frog Fxxx item number, this one has a 5-digit number.

Not according to the 'Big Book' they all start with 76 or 78 and are 5 digit numbers

Thanks for posting that --  :thumbsup:

Oiuch, I suppose I got confused with some authentic soviet russian Frog-spawn I have that sport in cyrillic the Frog cat. number.
BUT I have the Novo kits:
Tupolev SB-2 F176
Lancaster 1/96 F 359
Comet 4 F356
Caravelle F357
Shell Welder F137

I mean with the F number written big. So at least SOME Novo retained the Frog numbering.
Paolo
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: kitnut617 on September 14, 2014, 07:43:14 am
Very interesting Paolo, you need to send photos of those boxings to Jeff Garrity of Rare-Plane Detective because he has taken over the PAK-20 book updates, as none of those appear in the 'Big Book'. I think he would be very interested in them, especially that F-82 boxing --  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: loupgarou on September 14, 2014, 08:17:18 am
Very interesting Paolo, you need to send photos of those boxings to Jeff Garrity of Rare-Plane Detective because he has taken over the PAK-20 book updates, as none of those appear in the 'Big Book'. I think he would be very interested in them, especially that F-82 boxing --  :thumbsup:

Do you mean Garrity has taken over updating the book, or that he's just selling the old updates?
I have studied Pak20 quite a lot. Unfortunately, maybe because California is nearer Japan than to Europe, it appears (to me) that there are a lot of errors and/or omissions concerning european brands, and even more in my main interest: models form 1/87 to 1/100.  :rolleyes:
Even if Garrity is rewriting the book, I'd have to maintain a continuous stream of infos and photos for a while, I am afraid  ;D
Pak20 even affirms (page 11) that Trumpeter's An-12 is the same as KVZ/Plasticart!  :o (only about 30 years between them) and ignore the Revell reissue of the Tamiya B-52 (a big one to miss  ;D )

DISCLAIMERS:
1) I don't have the updates
2) my comments don't mean I don't appreciate the enormous work done by Burns, I reckon it's impossible to discover and list everything, and many of the kits and brands he lists are very obscure (to say the least)
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: loupgarou on September 14, 2014, 08:31:12 am
Anyway, For Your Eyes Only... ;D

(http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee209/loupgarousocialclub/th_NovoF137tanker.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/loupgarousocialclub/media/NovoF137tanker.jpg.html)  (http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee209/loupgarousocialclub/th_NovoF356CometIV.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/loupgarousocialclub/media/NovoF356CometIV.jpg.html)  (http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee209/loupgarousocialclub/th_NovoF357Caravelle.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/loupgarousocialclub/media/NovoF357Caravelle.jpg.html)  (http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee209/loupgarousocialclub/th_NovoF359Lancaster.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/loupgarousocialclub/media/NovoF359Lancaster.jpg.html)  (http://i235.photobucket.com/albums/ee209/loupgarousocialclub/th_DonetskF359Lancaster.jpg) (http://s235.photobucket.com/user/loupgarousocialclub/media/DonetskF359Lancaster.jpg.html)
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: NARSES2 on September 14, 2014, 08:34:39 am
I don't think I've seen any of those boxings ? Maybe the Comet but the others ???
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: kitnut617 on September 14, 2014, 09:40:25 am
Very interesting Paolo, you need to send photos of those boxings to Jeff Garrity of Rare-Plane Detective because he has taken over the PAK-20 book updates, as none of those appear in the 'Big Book'. I think he would be very interested in them, especially that F-82 boxing --  :thumbsup:

Do you mean Garrity has taken over updating the book, or that he's just selling the old updates?

DISCLAIMERS:
1) I don't have the updates
2) my comments don't mean I don't appreciate the enormous work done by Burns, I reckon it's impossible to discover and list everything, and many of the kits and brands he lists are very obscure (to say the least)

John Burns never claimed that his publication was perfect, he was always looking for confirmation of kit numbers so he could update his book. After he published the book in 2002, he put out four addendum booklets (the last one in 2007), these had corrections and/or added items listed. He managed to list over 34,000 plastic model aircraft kits while putting together the book.

Jeff Garrity (afaik) was the only place where you could buy these books, and when John retired he was left with the project.  I had tried to contact John one time because I had spotted a couple of thing (because I had a boxing in my hand usually) but couldn't get hold of him (he usually responded) so I contacted Garrity to find out if there was a change in contact info, it was then Jeff told me that John had retired and wasn't doing it anymore but if I had any new info on kits I was to send the info to him.  Therefore I'm assuming that Jeff will publish another addendum some time in the future. 

Which is why I said send your pics to him -- just mention you have new or corrected info for the book.
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: loupgarou on September 14, 2014, 10:37:10 am

Jeff Garrity (afaik) was the only place where you could buy these books, and when John retired he was left with the project.  I had tried to contact John one time because I had spotted a couple of thing (because I had a boxing in my hand usually) but couldn't get hold of him (he usually responded) so I contacted Garrity to find out if there was a change in contact info, it was then Jeff told me that John had retired and wasn't doing it anymore but if I had any new info on kits I was to send the info to him.  Therefore I'm assuming that Jeff will publish another addendum some time in the future. 

Which is why I said send your pics to him -- just mention you have new or corrected info for the book.

Thanks for your explanation. I'll try to contact him. i too am interested in modelling history and would like Burns' work to be continued.
Title: Re: The American Hogsback bomber - Korea 1950
Post by: Martin H on September 14, 2014, 12:33:49 pm
Ive had at least 4 Novo F-82's in my stash at one point or another. Ive got a pair of bagged examples currently in the stash.

The moldings have all the usual haul marks of Frog tooling.