What if

Hot Research Topics => Aircraft, Armor, Weapons and Ships by Topic => Topic started by: Nick on October 17, 2003, 03:57:56 pm

Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Nick on October 17, 2003, 03:57:56 pm
Been thinking about a thread on rec.aviation.military ng (pretty much the only military aviation thread there :unsure: ) about post WW2 combat aircraft that never saw combat. Some interesting results have popped up as well as various mistakes from other people, like thinking the Vulcan, Javelin and Hawk have never seen combat.

This got me thinking (dodgy but it has to be done ;) ). The BAe Hawk has been used for counter-insurgency attacks by African nations.
What-if the RAF considered using the Hawk trainer not just as an Air Defence version, but also in a Ground Attack role supporting army operations like the Harrier? Use the T-45 Goshawk from RN carriers for helping the Marines?
Nice camo schemes to match, of course.

The new 1/48 Hawk is £10 in a local shop but I don't plan on building one.

Nick  B)  
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Aircav on October 18, 2003, 02:14:21 am
I've been thinking of doing some T-45s when I get everything else out of the way.
A T-45 RM version with the rear cockpit filled in (I know Rad had the same idea) in green and grey camo armed with rockets and bombs for ground attack.
A two seat T-45 version for the RN in gloss black with a union jack tail and spine (to go with the Skyhawk I'm planning) armed with SeaEagle and drop tanks.
Well thats where I've got so far.............. ;)

All the best
Steve
 :blink:
 
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Mike Wren on October 19, 2003, 06:41:46 am
what about an RAF Sqn of aggressor Hawks in pseudo-Soviet camo schemes with big red stars? They could carry those ECM pods on the centreline which those bizjets (Falcons?) use for RN training?

Or maybe the USN/USMC could do the same with some T-45s?

must get round to doing an RAF Op Granby Forward Air Control Hawk in desert pink loaded with chaff & ECM pods & smoke marker rockets

 :rolleyes:
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: nev on October 19, 2003, 11:06:19 am
Ooh, I like your FAC idea Mike.

How about a WW3 hawk?  The plan was to use them as point interceptors in time of war, so maybe a grey one with a couple of Backfire kill markings?

Or if things got really desperate in Europe, a grey/green one loaded with ordnance for CAS.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Geoff_B on October 19, 2003, 11:18:44 am
Quote
must get round to doing an RAF Op Granby Forward Air Control Hawk in desert pink loaded with chaff & ECM pods & smoke marker rockets

Hi Mike

If its FAC then how about the wrap arround scheme used on the Helos the sand and stone colours, might be more appropriate somehow. Maybe add a pair of SNEB pods or the Gun pod to provide its own firepower if needed, obviously the Jags would do most of the striking - on that point as an Alternative how about BAe loaning the Hawk 100 to the RAF, desert pink, drop tanks and ecm/chaff with a Talid on the centre line providing target marking for laser guided bombs from the Jags.

Cheers

GeoffB B)  
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Radish on October 19, 2003, 11:32:07 am
Hawks look good in camo.
Why not a fully loaded 100 series(modified as I've suggested before) into a 300 series single-seater?
Lots of FAC possibilities as well as cheapo fighter-bombers of the RAux AF??
Desert scheme?
How about that trialled Desert scheme of Gulf Pink on the plan-form upper surfaces with grey on the rest?
Or, all over grey?
Or a wrap around lizard colour schme?
The Goshawk is to be "done" by Model Alliance (at a price).
quite fancy a camo job, but the idea of an aggressor scheme also appeals, especially with nice markings.
Model Alliancedecal sheet should be out at the Nats with 100Sqn (Skull & crossbones!!!!) and 74Sqn tiger on.
Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 :wub:  
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Nick on October 19, 2003, 11:53:09 am
Quote
Or if things got really desperate in Europe, a grey/green one loaded with ordnance for CAS.
That's it!! That's what I had in mind! All I could imagine was a camo'd Hawk, fully bombed up, flying in low over a group of WarPac troops and letting loose... Bit like all those Jags and Harriers were expected to do.

Let's see, following the surprise shove by Soviet Army's which forced NATO troops all the way back as far aas the French border and depleted friendly air forces drastically, the RAF grabs a squadron of trainers, paints them in a spiffy Euro green camo and sends on their way to push the Soviets back. All this done as the US Reforger exercise gets up to speed.

Nick B)  
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: JoeP on October 19, 2003, 05:24:56 pm
Maybe a Brazilian Hawk, as replacements for their A-4s on the Minas Gerais.

Indian Hawks to fly off the ex-Gorshkov.

Philippine Hawks in a light CAS or maritime patrol role.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Davey B on October 21, 2003, 11:43:09 am
LOVE the FAC Hawk idea!  :wub:  :wub:  :wub:

Thought of doing an RNZAF Hawk 100 for that. All-over dark green (a la A-4K), but with peacetime training hi-viz bands around fuselage and wings.

Hmm, methinks that someone needs to read the history of the Falklands War if they think the Vulcan never flew a combat mission  :blink:
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: elmayerle on November 20, 2003, 04:38:04 pm
Regarding ideas for Hawk variants, I keept thinking of Hawk100/T-45 and Hawk200/T-45 hybrids operating off some of the smaller, older carriers.

The thought also occured to me of RAuxAF Hawk200's utlizing Red Top AAM's remaining after the Lightning stood down.

Going back farher in time, I've always wondered if the seeker of the Fairey Fireflash could have been mated to the airframe of the Firestreak to produce a missile equivalent to at least the Sparrow I at a similar time.

Thoughtfully,
Evan Mayerle
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Geoff_B on August 30, 2004, 11:00:44 pm
Erm Ben  Airfix don't do the 200, its the 100 they do and that in 1/48 (Although Neomega now do a Hawk 200 conversion based on this kit). Thats why its £9.99.


As to the Matchbox 1/72 Hawk 200 i think its still produced for the Chinese Market in Hong Kong and can still be found ebay. I just did a search worldwide on there and found three but one of those was US only and in Texas (Ben interested ?)

Cheers

Geoff B B)
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 07, 2007, 05:34:04 am
Is Hawk 200 AMRAAM compatible, theoretically at least?
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on November 07, 2007, 05:56:25 am
Yes.  The APG-66H radar in the Hawk is a version of the F-16's radar, and is compatible with AMRAAM.  
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: simmie on November 07, 2007, 08:16:37 am
The Blue Vixen radar used on the Sea Harrier F/A 2 would also fill out the nose quite nicely.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: JoeP on November 07, 2007, 11:28:25 am
This is the aircraft I always forget when discussing planes for modern light carriers. Hawks and/or Goshawks would be acceptable in an environment where the opposition doesn't have modern fighters or lots of SAM.

The USN's Goshawks can be armed, but they don't fly them that way. It might be a good way to fill out flight decks as the F-35 gets later and later.

Brasil could consider buying armed Goshawks to replace their A-4s.

JoeP
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 07, 2007, 12:11:06 pm
^^^^^
What if a naval Hawk 200? Take a Matchbox Hawk 200 and an Italeri Goshawk (both from ebay)

Additionally, I am thinking in a supersonic (mach 1.6 or so) Hawk 200, Hawk 300 could be the name:
wings and tailplane from F-16
pointed nose
intakes from a Tiger II / F-20 (not sure in this point)
powered by a RB-199 from a Tornado

What do you think?
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: elmayerle on November 07, 2007, 10:53:33 pm
Considering how similar in appearance the Hawk and the Soko Super-Galeb are, how about a sale of Hawks to Yugoslavia instead of their building the Super-Galeb?  Perhaps because they kept their association with Hawker after WW II with land-based Sea Hawks instead of straight-winged F-84s and Hunters instead of F-86s?  There's a red, white, and blue aerobatic team marking for the Super Galeb on a decal sheet by Lift Here that looks like it'd be perfect for a Hawk.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: waynos on November 08, 2007, 04:03:29 am
I did a pair of supersonic Hawks in a similar fashion to that described above, they were a RSAF Hawk 300 - Italeri Hawk 100 with EJ200 nozzle and widened and enlarged rear fuselage, and an Indonesian Hawk 400 - Same as before but mated to Matchbox Hawk 200 front end plus PIRATE IRST. Here; I did also toy with the idea of doing a USMC 'A-45E Sparrowhawk' with another matchbox Hawk 200 and a T-45.

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/WtMiller/100_1796.jpg)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/WtMiller/100_1797.jpg)

(http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a94/WtMiller/100_1798.jpg)
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on November 08, 2007, 09:05:33 am
An armed Goshawk was one of my plane for a Brazilian Navy fighter.

The first batch could be two-seater Goshawk with no radar, but laser pod and GBU ability, with Sidewinder on the wing tips and Maverick under the wings. The Brazilian Navy could play and train with them for few years, replacing its older A-4, waiting for the end of development of the second batch.

This Second Batch will be fully operationnal as a multimode  naval light fighter. They will have a more powerfull ADOUR engine, a multipurpose radar (APG-66 or a more modern RDY-3 radar) and maybe a FLIR, just like on the Harrier II +.

For the weapon, they could have an lage variety of payload:
-BVR missiles (AMRAAM, MICA or DERBY)
-Light air-to-ground missiles (Brimstone, AASM, Maverick)
-laser and GPS guided weapons (Paveway II/III, AASM, JDAM, Enhanced Paveway or Pave IV, maybe JSOW)
-Light anti-ship missiles (AASM -yes, one more time!!-, Penguin or NSM missiles)
-Anti-radar missiles (AASM-I know I know, but it's a multipurpose modular weapon!-, ALARM, does Harm fit under such a small aircraft?)


I spend an hour the other day to draw the possible weapon configuration for an armed variant of the Goshawk. I even do the same with the Alpha Jet, imagining he won the deal (the advantage of the Apha Jet is that it could carry bit missiles like Harpoon or Storm Shadow, better for whifing!!)
 
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: GTX on November 08, 2007, 10:28:18 pm
How about a Hawk derived UCAV - the nice people at the A.S.Yakovlev Design Bureau have proposed a UCAV (they call it an Unmanned Reconnaissance Striker Aircraft) variant after all:

(http://www.yak.ru/PIC/ENG/PROD/yak-130m.jpg)

I think the Hawk would provide a good basis for a UCAV, if only a demonstration one.

Regards,

Greg
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: elmayerle on November 08, 2007, 11:18:51 pm
Quote
An armed Goshawk was one of my plane for a Brazilian Navy fighter.

The first batch could be two-seater Goshawk with no radar, but laser pod and GBU ability, with Sidewinder on the wing tips and Maverick under the wings. The Brazilian Navy could play and train with them for few years, replacing its older A-4, waiting for the end of development of the second batch.

This Second Batch will be fully operationnal as a multimode  naval light fighter. They will have a more powerfull ADOUR engine, a multipurpose radar (APG-66 or a more modern RDY-3 radar) and maybe a FLIR, just like on the Harrier II +.

For the weapon, they could have an lage variety of payload:
-BVR missiles (AMRAAM, MICA or DERBY)
-Light air-to-ground missiles (Brimstone, AASM, Maverick)
-laser and GPS guided weapons (Paveway II/III, AASM, JDAM, Enhanced Paveway or Pave IV, maybe JSOW)
-Light anti-ship missiles (AASM -yes, one more time!!-, Penguin or NSM missiles)
-Anti-radar missiles (AASM-I know I know, but it's a multipurpose modular weapon!-, ALARM, does Harm fit under such a small aircraft?)


I spend an hour the other day to draw the possible weapon configuration for an armed variant of the Goshawk. I even do the same with the Alpha Jet, imagining he won the deal (the advantage of the Apha Jet is that it could carry bit missiles like Harpoon or Storm Shadow, better for whifing!!)
Just a thought, do the first batch with the Hawk 100 nose and have the laser pod's functions built in, freeing hardpoints for weaponry.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on November 10, 2007, 03:10:58 pm
Quote
Quote
An armed Goshawk was one of my plane for a Brazilian Navy fighter.

The first batch could be two-seater Goshawk with no radar, but laser pod and GBU ability, with Sidewinder on the wing tips and Maverick under the wings. The Brazilian Navy could play and train with them for few years, replacing its older A-4, waiting for the end of development of the second batch.

This Second Batch will be fully operationnal as a multimode  naval light fighter. They will have a more powerfull ADOUR engine, a multipurpose radar (APG-66 or a more modern RDY-3 radar) and maybe a FLIR, just like on the Harrier II +.

For the weapon, they could have an lage variety of payload:
-BVR missiles (AMRAAM, MICA or DERBY)
-Light air-to-ground missiles (Brimstone, AASM, Maverick)
-laser and GPS guided weapons (Paveway II/III, AASM, JDAM, Enhanced Paveway or Pave IV, maybe JSOW)
-Light anti-ship missiles (AASM -yes, one more time!!-, Penguin or NSM missiles)
-Anti-radar missiles (AASM-I know I know, but it's a multipurpose modular weapon!-, ALARM, does Harm fit under such a small aircraft?)


I spend an hour the other day to draw the possible weapon configuration for an armed variant of the Goshawk. I even do the same with the Alpha Jet, imagining he won the deal (the advantage of the Apha Jet is that it could carry bit missiles like Harpoon or Storm Shadow, better for whifing!!)
Just a thought, do the first batch with the Hawk 100 nose and have the laser pod's functions built in, freeing hardpoints for weaponry.
IIRC the -100 only has a Ferranti laser rangefinder, similar the the Jaguar and Harrier GR.3, not a full laser designating capability such as TIALD or LITENING.

The Hawk 200 also carried Sea Eagles during trials, so dont underestimate it's capability to carry big hardware
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on November 10, 2007, 05:49:31 pm
Quote
The Hawk 200 also carried Sea Eagles during trials, so dont underestimate it's capability to carry big hardware
I thought the wings were not high enough to allowed such carriage, I'm glad to hear that  I was wrong, it's better for whiffery (don't worry, I didn't underestimate its carriage ability in terms of weight but in term of size)


Is there any picture of the Hawk with heavy payload? I never saw one of them and never red that the Sea Eagle was in the Hawk weapon package. Is that because the integration of the missile was impossible or just because no customer paid for it?

Last question: do you think that a Storm Shadow could fit under its wings (well, no real need for that, but it could look cool, right??)? Maybe a SLAM-ER is a better solution.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: GTX on November 10, 2007, 09:26:13 pm
Of course that raises a sobering thought - Indonesian Hawk 200s loaded with Sea Eagles - that could make life interesting for the RAN.  Even more sobering - the same scenario with the added fun twist of a radical Indonesian Caliphate following a coup or similar.

Regards,

Greg  
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: GTX on November 10, 2007, 09:28:24 pm
Of course a USN twist on this idea would be for T-45s to be equipped to carry an AGM-84 Harpoon!

Regards,

Greg
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: elmayerle on November 10, 2007, 10:30:57 pm
Quote
Quote
Quote
An armed Goshawk was one of my plane for a Brazilian Navy fighter.

The first batch could be two-seater Goshawk with no radar, but laser pod and GBU ability, with Sidewinder on the wing tips and Maverick under the wings. The Brazilian Navy could play and train with them for few years, replacing its older A-4, waiting for the end of development of the second batch.

This Second Batch will be fully operationnal as a multimode† naval light fighter. They will have a more powerfull ADOUR engine, a multipurpose radar (APG-66 or a more modern RDY-3 radar) and maybe a FLIR, just like on the Harrier II +.

For the weapon, they could have an lage variety of payload:
-BVR missiles (AMRAAM, MICA or DERBY)
-Light air-to-ground missiles (Brimstone, AASM, Maverick)
-laser and GPS guided weapons (Paveway II/III, AASM, JDAM, Enhanced Paveway or Pave IV, maybe JSOW)
-Light anti-ship missiles (AASM -yes, one more time!!-, Penguin or NSM missiles)
-Anti-radar missiles (AASM-I know I know, but it's a multipurpose modular weapon!-, ALARM, does Harm fit under such a small aircraft?)


I spend an hour the other day to draw the possible weapon configuration for an armed variant of the Goshawk. I even do the same with the Alpha Jet, imagining he won the deal (the advantage of the Apha Jet is that it could carry bit missiles like Harpoon or Storm Shadow, better for whifing!!)
Just a thought, do the first batch with the Hawk 100 nose and have the laser pod's functions built in, freeing hardpoints for weaponry.
IIRC the -100 only has a Ferranti laser rangefinder, similar the the Jaguar and Harrier GR.3, not a full laser designating capability such as TIALD or LITENING.
 
That still gives it sufficient volume to mount a more capable system, though you might need to tweak the optical window a bit to fit it.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: MartG on November 11, 2007, 01:27:08 am
Quote
Is there any picture of the Hawk with heavy payload? I never saw one of them and never red that the Sea Eagle was in the Hawk weapon package.
I saw a pic of one years ago with a Sea Eagle on the centreline pylon, fuel tanks on the inner wing pylons
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on November 11, 2007, 08:04:56 am
I spend some times looking for informations about the Hawk, and I find some interresting stuffs, some of them well known:

-The Hawk could carry twin stores rack under it's 4 wings pylons. Do anyone has a picture of them? Maybe we could easily scratch them.

-The Hawk 200 demonstrator had twin 25mm gun in the nose! Well, someone knows where and how they fit in? I mean, are they placed in the nose instead of the radar or added to it, like on the F-20??
Could we imaging other solutions, like a twin 20mm gun?
 
-The Goshawk was proposed with a Garrett F124. Considering that the F124-GA-100 have a 6300lb thrust (against 5900 for the Adour 900, but I don't know the Adour 951 thrust), we could imagine a new Hawk with a more powerfull F124 for better performances and payload abilities.
Is there any other possibilty for a new engine or a new variant of the Adour? Maybe something that could push to 7000 or 8000lb??
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on November 11, 2007, 09:23:42 am
Quote
I spend some times looking for informations about the Hawk, and I find some interresting stuffs, some of them well known:

-The Hawk could carry twin stores rack under it's 4 wings pylons. Do anyone has a picture of them? Maybe we could easily scratch them.

-The Hawk 200 demonstrator had twin 25mm gun in the nose! Well, someone knows where and how they fit in? I mean, are they placed in the nose instead of the radar or added to it, like on the F-20??
Could we imaging other solutions, like a twin 20mm gun?
 
-The Goshawk was proposed with a Garrett F124. Considering that the F124-GA-100 have a 6300lb thrust (against 5900 for the Adour 900, but I don't know the Adour 951 thrust), we could imagine a new Hawk with a more powerfull F124 for better performances and payload abilities.
Is there any other possibilty for a new engine or a new variant of the Adour? Maybe something that could push to 7000 or 8000lb??
Anyone interested in the Hawk should try to pick up a copy of 'British Aerosapce Hawk' from Osprey by Roy Braybrook.  It's an older book (1984), but has some great info and ots of whif inspiration.

A few tidbits from this book:

-Pics of the G-HAWK BAe demonstrator with 8 X 500lb bombs on the twin carriers.  It looks like they are the same type of twin carriers used on Harrier GR.3s in the 70s-80s.  

-Artists inpression of a Hawk 200 with a Sea Eagle on centerline.  This was the actual trialed installation also, with a pic of xx258 (leased to BAe from the RAF) with a centerline Sea Eagle.

-Pics of a Hawk 60 in flight with 36 BAP-100 runway cratering bombs (9 per hardpoint).

-Pics of various Hawks fitted with Mk 46 torpedoes (4) and ALARM (2).

-Cutaway drawing of the Hawk 200 nose section, showing the ADEN 25 cannon location-in the lower fwd fuselage, approximately adjacent to the intake, under the pilot, with the end of the barrel under the electronmics compartment in front of the windscreen, flanking the nosegear.

Arthur Reed's 'BAe Hawk' from the Ian Allan Modern Combat Aircraft series (#20), is another good Hawk book.  From this one I found:

-Pic of the -200 demonstrator at Farnborough '84 dispayed carrying ALARM, and with Magic, AMRAAM, Sparrow (or Skyflash?), and ASRAAAM missiles dispayed in front of it.

-Pics of G-HAWK in flight with Magic AAMs, another inflight pic with 4 X 1000lb bombs, and a pic on the ground with 5 X 1000lb bombs (one on centerline).

-A better pic of the 8 X 500lb installation on a Zimbabwe Mk60, confriming the Harrier-type twin-carriers.

-Trails pics with 4 X BL755 CBUs.

-Trials pics with 4 X LAU51 rocket pods

-Artists impression of a -100 (though with a Mk60 nose) with 2 X Sea Eagles on the outboard pylons (seems a bit heavy for the outboards!).

-More pics of the Sea Eagle, BAP100, and torpedo trials listed above.



As far as the Adour 951, it is rated at 6,500lb I think, so growth to 7,000lb doesnt seem out of the question.  Since the -200 has (I think) the 5,700lb Adour 861, it would seem that an upgrade with the 951 would give a decent performance boost.

I could really get into this thread, since I love the Hawk.  It really has virtually unlimited whif potential since:

-Decent 1/72 and 1/48 kits available at good prices.
-Not much shelf space, even for 1/48.
-Cheap enough for just about any air force

I just wish Italeri would do a -200 in 1/72!

Some whif backstories I would like to pursue at some point include:

RAF 200s-order for around 100 airframes towards the end of the Cold War

RAF 100 series in combat-similar to the USAF Firehawk I built for service in Afghanistan.

Naval 100/200s in RN, RCN, RAN colors.







 
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on November 11, 2007, 10:03:33 am
OK, here's an expanded RAF Hawk FG.2 backstory-

The Tornado F.2 is unable to overcome its technical issues and is cancelled.  The RAF order F-14s as long range interceptors, but due to cost a smaller number, say 100 are all that can be bought.  To supplement this force the RAF orders 100 Hawk 200s to serve as Skyflash (and later AMRAAM) armed short range interceptors.  They have a secondary CAS role carrying BL755s and Matra rocket pods.  

In the mid-1990s they are upgraded to FG.3 standard with Adour Mk.871, full glass cockpit, and the ability to carry TIALD, Paveway, ALARM, and later, Brimstone.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on November 11, 2007, 04:39:22 pm
Interresting ideas, Nick!

For my part, I started (and never finished) to build a two seat variant of the Hawk 200, I mean a two seat Hawk with a radar suite in a longer and larger nose.
The radar is probably an APG-67, even if an APG-68/80 with smaller antenna could probably fit in the modified nose. Talking about radar from other countries, a French RC-400/RDY-3, an Italian Grifo or an Israelian design could be other possibilities.

I still don't know what to do with it.
It could be a plane from the third batch of the Brazilian Navy order, or maybe a RN bird.
But I also imagine a much more strange solution, dreaming of a Mistel between a modified rotodome-less E-2C and a Hawk!! Bizarre, isn't it??
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on December 16, 2007, 12:09:14 am
I wonder if the the BAE Hawk/T-45 Goshawk was given any serious consideration for the COIN mission now that there is a renewed interest in finding a suitable aircraft after so many years of ignoring it.  I think the Hawk/Goshawk would be suitable aircraft for use in the forward air control mission and as a light attack aircraft for counter-insurgency support.  It would be as good as or better than the A-37 with the added advantage of not sucking up FOD from the runway since it is no where near as low to the ground as the "Tweet." 

The two seat version is a must to get that second pair of eyes for finding the opposition and to deal with targeting and communicating that targeting information to other aircraft or ground units that would be tasked to fire on the targets. 

As far as a useful weapons load, I imagine that the centerline mounted gun pod would be retained for all missions.  Other ordnance carried for the type of mission would mirror that which was carried by the OV-10 Bronco and the A-37.  Figure on a pair of fuel tanks to extend range or loiter time and the usual rocket pods with white phosphorus warheads for marking targets.  Perhaps a laser targeting pod such as the Litening pod for marking targets for other aircraft carrying laser guided bombs.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Mossie on December 16, 2007, 05:35:05 am
I'm not sure about the T-45 but the Hawk in RAF service fills the COIN role, both in ground attack & air defence.  Hawks have been seen in both wraparound camo with matra pods or bombs, and also grey air defence scheme with sidewinders as part of the T.1A mod (interestingly, the Red Arrows Hawks were included in this mod).  Centreline podded Aden cannon are also a regular feature.  While these aircraft are primarily used in the weapons training role, there is a COIN capability there.  Now as far as the T-45 goes, maybe you could upgrade it to a T-45D using a Hawk 100 kit?  The Hawk 100 has provision for targeting sytems, that long chisel nose can carry a number of systems.

http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1100...rne&photo_nr=27 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1100494&size=L&width=1024&height=768&sok=JURER%20%20%28nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27HX%20-%20Nve%20Sbepr%25%27%29%20NAQ%20%28ZNGPU%20%28nvepensg%2Cnveyvar%2Ccynpr%2Ccubgb_qngr%2Cpbhagel%2Cerznex%2Ccubgbtencure%2Crznvy%2Clrne%2Cert%2Cnvepensg_trarevp%2Cpa%2Cpbqr%29%20NTNVAFG%20%28%27%2B%22Unjx%22%27%20VA%20OBBYRNA%20ZBQR%29%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20lrne&photo_nr=27)
http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1100...rne&photo_nr=27 (http://www.airliners.net/open.file?id=1100494&size=L&width=1024&height=768&sok=JURER%20%20%28nveyvar%20YVXR%20%27HX%20-%20Nve%20Sbepr%25%27%29%20NAQ%20%28ZNGPU%20%28nvepensg%2Cnveyvar%2Ccynpr%2Ccubgb_qngr%2Cpbhagel%2Cerznex%2Ccubgbtencure%2Crznvy%2Clrne%2Cert%2Cnvepensg_trarevp%2Cpa%2Cpbqr%29%20NTNVAFG%20%28%27%2B%22Unjx%22%27%20VA%20OBBYRNA%20ZBQR%29%29%20%20BEQRE%20OL%20lrne&photo_nr=27)

Digressing slightly, I've been thinking about what to do with the Hawk I've got in stash.  I thought about late cancellation of the Jaguar & that the Hawk entered service soon after the Jag.  Upgrade the Adour in the Hawk, or even add a single RB.199, new wing for extra weapon carrying capability, internal cannon, chisel nose like the Jag?
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on December 16, 2007, 06:18:32 am
For a dedicate COIN variant of the Hawk, we could probably imagine many different ways.

In this (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=17641) other topic, we talked about internal guns for the single seat Hawk 100.

-We could imagine to have a single seat Hawk with either a full FLIR/laser designator in the nose, with the centerline pylons free for weapons, or either a radar in the nose (maybe something optimised for air-to-ground uses) and a FLIR/laser designator pod under the fuselage stations.

2 Sidewinders (or 4 Stingers) could be carry on the wing tips for self defense, while the 4 wing's pylons could carry two 125kg GBU bombs each.

-A new wing could also be imagined, with more internal fuel and two additional pylons. Two of them could carry tanks, while the 4 remaining carry weapons.

-But even with todays Hawk, we could have a good base for a COIN/anti-helo aircraft:
Put 4 Stinger on the wing tips instead of two AIM-9, keep the 30mm gun and two external tanks on the internal pylons, and you could use the external pylons to carry new small powerfull weapons such as SDB or Brimstone missiles.
I could imagine at least 8 Brimstone (maybe 12?) and 6 to 8 SDB for each Hawk, what do you think?

The SDB could be from a new generation, with both IR/laser and GPS guidance systems (the laser designator could be build in the nose, or in a turret under it, just like on some UAVs)
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: SinUnNombre on December 17, 2007, 12:28:09 pm
I've been planning my own Hawk upgrade kitbash. It could be used for CAS/CoIn, point defense/interception, or even for small navies with LHA type carriers. It could easily be seen in the colors of the USN/USMC, the RN, or Aeronavale. Anyway, I'd start with a Hawk 200. Then I would use the landing gear and arrestor hook from a T-45. I know that's been done many times over, but I still like the concept. Then I would add the afterburning Adour Mk 104 from a Jaguar. That boosts the thrust from 5,000lbs +/- to 8,000+/-. Of course that makes getting off carriers easier and you can fit a bit bigger warload. And since the engines are from the same family, fitting it shouldnt be a problem. I'm honestly kind of surprised no one has talked of that mod(that I know of). The Hawk is a pretty quick bird for its size as is, but with a burner......wow. Anyway, that's my idea.

Jon
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Mossie on December 17, 2007, 04:54:00 pm
Quote
I've been planning my own Hawk upgrade kitbash. It could be used for CAS/CoIn, point defense/interception, or even for small navies with LHA type carriers. It could easily be seen in the colors of the USN/USMC, the RN, or Aeronavale. Anyway, I'd start with a Hawk 200. Then I would use the landing gear and arrestor hook from a T-45. I know that's been done many times over, but I still like the concept. Then I would add the afterburning Adour Mk 104 from a Jaguar. That boosts the thrust from 5,000lbs +/- to 8,000+/-. Of course that makes getting off carriers easier and you can fit a bit bigger warload. And since the engines are from the same family, fitting it shouldnt be a problem. I'm honestly kind of surprised no one has talked of that mod(that I know of). The Hawk is a pretty quick bird for its size as is, but with a burner......wow. Anyway, that's my idea.

Jon
Jon, to add a burner & give true supersonic capability to the Hawk I think you'd need a partial redesign.  Greater wing sweep would be required & a larger airframe for the extra fuel for an afterburner.  This has probably been what would have stopped production of a beefier Hawk, especially since as a (partly) British aircraft the Jaguar was available with just that kind of capability.  Sorry, I don't mean to shoot down your idea!

Pollux, I think Brimstone would add some serious capability to the Hawk.  With Stinger, or possibly Starstreak, you wouldn't need a radar system either, the FLIR/laser designators should be able to handle these weapons?  Starstreak has been shown to be effective against AFV's (MBT's are probably too much) too.  Although it's a hit or miss weapon, the three independent warheads offer a good chance of a hit.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on December 17, 2007, 06:23:39 pm
Quote
I'm honestly kind of surprised no one has talked of that mod(that I know of). The Hawk is a pretty quick bird for its size as is, but with a burner......wow. Anyway, that's my idea.
Personaly I never seriously thought about that modification because it require heavy surgery on the model (as Mossie said, you had to put the bigger engine and the bigger internal tanks in the fuselage) and I just don't have either the skills nor the patience to realize that!!  :lol:


Quote
Pollux, I think Brimstone would add some serious capability to the Hawk. With Stinger, or possibly Starstreak, you wouldn't need a radar system either, the FLIR/laser designators should be able to handle these weapons? Starstreak has been shown to be effective against AFV's (MBT's are probably too much) too. Although it's a hit or miss weapon, the three independent warheads offer a good chance of a hit.
I didn't thought about the radar as an air-to-air designator, but as a sensor for bad weather/anti-ship/terrain following etc... uses.
But after all, we could imagine a more multi-purpose aircraft with a multipurpose radar able to designate ground target and maybe air target at BVR range?

I admit that I prefer the solution with the laser designator in the nose, as it frees the centerline pylon for additional weapons. And after all, if we want a radar for terrain following, we could put it on a pod!! :P

And for the Starstreak, I admit that I don't know a thing about this missile! I said Stinger as a generic name, meaning that you could replace it by any missile in the same class of weight and size (Mistral, Starstreack, and why not dedicate anti-tank missiles?)


For the weapons, the Brimstone surely is the one I prefer (I always thought it is THE thing the Rafale lacks!!).
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on December 17, 2007, 07:17:08 pm
Quote
In an attempt to consolidate similar topics under one thread, I found this one sitting in the back waters of the forum and decided to revive it for further discussion.  So here we go...


I wonder if the the BAE Hawk/T-45 Goshawk was given any serious consideration for the COIN mission now that there is a renewed interest in finding a suitable aircraft after so many years of ignoring it.  

The Hawk/Goshawk would be suitable for use as a FAC and COIN/Light Attack platform.  It should be a better performer than the A-37 with the added advantage of not sucking up FOD from the runway since it is no where near as low to the ground as the A-37.  

The two seat version is a must to get that second pair of eyes for finding the opposition and to deal with targeting and communicating that targeting information to other aircraft or ground units that would be tasked to fire on the targets.  

So a useful weapons load would probably be the centerline gun pod and at least a pair of fuel tanks and rocket pods to mark targets.  As far as targeting pods, I am still undecided on what that would or should consist of.  I had considered the LANTIRN system since it provided a radar as well as laser and FLIR capabilities but where do you hang them?  Wing pylons are one location but what about mounting to the fuselage?
The USAF has had CAS Hawks since November according to this (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=9175&hl=firehawk)     ;)

(http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d87/AeroplaneDriver/FireHawk024.jpg)

(since this was taken last year the LANTIRN pod has been moved to a more practical/better looking centerline pylon, and a second Sidewinder added to the wingtip)

 
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: SinUnNombre on December 18, 2007, 07:25:35 am
Quote
Jon, to add a burner & give true supersonic capability to the Hawk I think you'd need a partial redesign.  Greater wing sweep would be required & a larger airframe for the extra fuel for an afterburner.  This has probably been what would have stopped production of a beefier Hawk, especially since as a (partly) British aircraft the Jaguar was available with just that kind of capability.  Sorry, I don't mean to shoot down your idea!
 
Don't appologize, Mossie. Its my fault for not doing my research first. I just figured it was a drop-in replacement. And also, my afterburning Hawk 200(or 100, if you'd rather have a 2-holer) while filling a similar role to the Jag, its also navalised, where the Jag isn't(But it could be...). So for British forces, its not implausible to see them operating on missions alongside each other. And as a export version to countries with small carriers and need for a small multirole fighter could buy them. But if anyone could, I'd still like to build an afterburning, supersonic Hawk, just because I can.

Jon
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Mossie on December 18, 2007, 08:19:14 am
After shooting down your idea Jon, I'm now thinking of ways that you could modify the Hawk for supersonic speeds without too much modification!  The length of the afterburning adour is about 1m longer than the dry version, you might be able to get away with a bolt on extension on the rear, but the engineers will know.

Fuel wise, you could go a number of routes.  Ventral pack, in the central position that is often taken by the gun pod (but it would have to be pretty narrow because of the undercart), a spine lump like the A-4, CFT's over the intakes & slipper or tip tanks on the wings.  My feeling is that the slipper or tip tanks would be the best option.

As far as modifying the wings you might be able to get away with it.  The Hawk can go supersonic in a dive & I think that wing might capable of low mach numbers up to about 1.5.  With the reheat it might be well capable of supersonic dashes.

There, I always think you can make a whiff idea work if you plug at it.  Hopefully some of the engineers will be able to yay or nay my comments!
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on December 18, 2007, 04:32:49 pm
If you like heavy surgery, maybe you could lengthened the front fuselage to compensate the weight of the AB engine extension. That could give you the place for the additional fuel.

And if you have the skills, maybe you could enlarged and/or lengthened the wings too?  
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: GTX on December 23, 2007, 11:28:53 am
Well its not a Hawk I know, but it is about the same size:

A CASA C-101 Aviojet with 2 Sea Eagles:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/101se.jpg)

If this could do it, the Hawk certainly should have been able to.

Regards,

Greg
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: nev on December 23, 2007, 06:06:55 pm
Don't forget the ones license built in Japan! (http://www.whatifmodelers.com/forum//index.php?showtopic=16582&st=15) ;)
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: GTX on January 02, 2008, 01:15:46 pm
Speaking of Hawks and Sea Eagles, here you go:

(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/hawk1.jpg)
(http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e68/GTwiner/hawk2.jpg)

Regards,

Greg
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Aircav on January 02, 2008, 03:15:52 pm
Its about time someone kitted the T-45 in 1/48 scale
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on January 06, 2008, 08:10:43 pm
I think everyone knows I love the Hawk and would be the last to rain on its parade, but there is a thread on Pprune.com right now discussing the Hawk, and a chap who seems to be accepted as someone who worked on the Hawk for BAES is saying that a lot of the stuff fitted and flown in the 80s was just for publicity shots, and would in no way work as a real weapon.  He specifically mentions that when carrying the Sea Eagle the Hawk was not capable of the minimum lauch speed for the Sea Eagle (required for the missile's engine to light off).   :(

But if helos can carry Sea Skua.... 
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on January 07, 2008, 08:38:26 am
Thanks for the pictures with the Sea Eagle!!

Quote
I think everyone knows I love the Hawk and would be the last to rain on its parade, but there is a thread on Pprune.com right now discussing the Hawk, and a chap who seems to be accepted as someone who worked on the Hawk for BAES is saying that a lot of the stuff fitted and flown in the 80s was just for publicity shots, and would in no way work as a real weapon.  He specifically mentions that when carrying the Sea Eagle the Hawk was not capable of the minimum lauch speed for the Sea Eagle (required for the missile's engine to light off).   Sad

But if helos can carry Sea Skua....
Interesting information.

But as you said, the Sea Skua is available, as it could be fired from an helo. Idem for the Exocet and the Penguin.
So, the anti-ship Hawk is not dead!! Not for our whiff-minded brains, at least!
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: dy031101 on January 07, 2008, 09:36:04 am
He specifically mentions that when carrying the Sea Eagle the Hawk was not capable of the minimum lauch speed for the Sea Eagle (required for the missile's engine to light off).

Not even in a shallow dive?
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: elmayerle on January 07, 2008, 09:54:54 am
He specifically mentions that when carrying the Sea Eagle the Hawk was not capable of the minimum lauch speed for the Sea Eagle (required for the missile's engine to light off).   :(

Well, it sounds like either a booster would be needed for Sea Eagle or they'd have to go with an upgraded Martel variant (keep tHE Sea Eagle systems and replace the jet engine with an improved rocket MOTOR?) or go with other missiles.  I could see the version of the Penguin carried by Norwegian F-16s as viable and it occurs to me to wonder how the Harpoon compares with the Sea Eagle in weight and launch requirements.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: madmike on January 07, 2008, 02:55:59 pm
I have a RAAF COIN Hawk200 planned. The sacrificial kits are ready as well and there is even a operational hsitory outline organised.

Cheers

Mike
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Howard of Effingham on April 01, 2008, 06:27:27 am
i recently added a hawk 100 to my collection with the intention of an RAF what-if.

would adapting one of the 1980's or 1990's schemes that 4 FTS used be strecthing it too far?

answers please.

trevor
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on April 01, 2008, 11:45:27 am
Sorry Howard, I can't answer your question (don't know a thing about RAF squadrons) but your post reminds me something.

I recently read an article talking about the possiblity of a new T-45 Goshawk purchase by the US Navy, probably in a new standard T-45D. If I remember well, some of them will just be old T-45 refited, but others could be new airframe, with new equipments, cockpit and maybe even an internal radar. The main is to use them as training aircrafts not only to learn how to fly and land on a carrier, but also to train back seaters WISO for the ELINT/SEAD missions (that's for the EA-6, EA-18, and alos P-8 operators).

Could be a whif potential here, what do you think?
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Mossie on April 01, 2008, 12:18:45 pm
i recently added a hawk 100 to my collection with the intention of an RAF what-if.

would adapting one of the 1980's or 1990's schemes that 4 FTS used be strecthing it too far?

answers please.

trevor
I think it's possible Trev.  Abu Dhabi & Oman started taking them in 1993, the black RAF trainer scheme was introduced 1994/95 I think, so you could get away with it if the RAF took some of the first 100 series airframes.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: AeroplaneDriver on April 01, 2008, 01:58:55 pm
Sorry Howard, I can't answer your question (don't know a thing about RAF squadrons) but your post reminds me something.

I recently read an article talking about the possiblity of a new T-45 Goshawk purchase by the US Navy, probably in a new standard T-45D. If I remember well, some of them will just be old T-45 refited, but others could be new airframe, with new equipments, cockpit and maybe even an internal radar. The main is to use them as training aircrafts not only to learn how to fly and land on a carrier, but also to train back seaters WISO for the ELINT/SEAD missions (that's for the EA-6, EA-18, and alos P-8 operators).

Could be a whif potential here, what do you think?

I also read an aticle about the possible T-45D purchase.  The one I read mentioned the weapons capability, but that it would be through simulated sensors, in the same way the RAF's Hawk T.2s will be able to simulate the Typhoon's combat capability.

Coming back to an ongoing theme with the Hawk, it seems that with proper development the Goshawk could evolve into a light/cheap carrier aircraft for nations looking for a capability comparable to the A-4.  Mention of an updated T-45D just reinforces this.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on April 01, 2008, 02:37:15 pm
Exactly what I thought!!

The T-45D coult be a good base for an hypothetic A/T-45E (a kind of Hawk 100 carrier based) or even a A-45F (a real single-seater Hawk 200 carrier based).
For the Brazil, it could be a perfect choice to replace or support the A-4 in an alternate history (a one with a Sao Paulo that actually can sail!  ;D)
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Howard of Effingham on April 02, 2008, 03:58:03 am
cheers all!

mossie! the hard part is deciding which 4 FTS scheme to use. there are several. i was thinking that if
4 FTS had had some hawk 100's in the mid 1990's then they probably would not have had wingtip AIM-9's
[these parts can go on a hawk 200 i have] and probably just drop tanks for a bit more range.

the T-45D idea sounds good and i think a few extra lumps and bumps would do the trick. i have also wondered
why the goshawk has never [to my knowledge] been used as an aggressor in the same manner as 100 sqn has.
btw i see that the last USN T-2's are being replaced by T-45's later on this year.  will they perform the fast jet
portion of the NFO training syllabus as the T-2's have been? [with VT-86 cosmic cats iirc.]

trevor
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Mossie on April 02, 2008, 05:41:10 am
cheers all!

mossie! the hard part is deciding which 4 FTS scheme to use. there are several. i was thinking that if 4 FTS had
had some hawk 100's in the mid 1990's then they probably would not have had wingtip AIM-9's [these parts can go
on a hawk 200 i have] and probably just drop tanks for a bit more range.

the T-45D idea sounds good and i think a few extra lumps and bumps would do the trick. i have also wondered why the
goshwak has never [to my knowledge] been used as an aggressor in the same manner as 100 sqn has. btw i see that
the last USN T-2's are being replaced by T-45's later on this year.  will they perform the fast jet portion of the NFO
training syllabus as the T-2's have been? [with VT-86 cosmic cats iirc.]

trevor
Trev, the red/white/blue scheme would fit that time scheme, the earlier red/white scheme would be too early I think.  You could go with air defence greys for a weapons trainer.  Overall gloss black would be fine of course, but the RAF's Hawk 100's will probably recieve this scheme.
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Shasper on April 02, 2008, 06:32:21 am
I'm not quite sure why the USN hasnt assigned T-45s to Adversary units (they are NOT Aggressors, thats the zoomies in blues ;)), back in the day VF-43 had a few T-2 Buckeyes on hand for spin training n what not, and they word the "yuck" camo.

I think if the T-45D proposal goes thru then maybe a few will get out to Fallon or Key West.


Shas 8)
Title: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on April 02, 2008, 10:26:33 am
I imagined several other variants of the aircraft this afternoon, most of them for US use.

USAF T-45B Goshawk
The US Navy refused the T-45B (land based Goshhawk) because the T-2 and TA-4 were prefered, but what if the USAF did buy some of them for advanced training, maybe as a replacement for part of the T-38 fleet?

USAF OA-45A Kestrel
In the mid-1980's, it appears that the planned replacement of the OA-37 by the single-seater OA-10 was not a good solution in every case. In some combat situations (particulary in South America, as Panama's events will later prove), a two seater aircraft is a best shot. Moreover, a lighter aircraft could operate from small airfield, needs less maintain, is cheaper and more manoeuvrable at low altitude.
A new modernization of the OA-37 was desired by the USAF, but surprizingly, the single-engine Hawk won the competition. The new variant was to be build jointly with British industry (the British name of the program was Hawk 100/200).

-The OA-45A first flight occured in early 1985. It was equiped with a 15% more powerfull engine, twin adaptaters on the wing pylons (for 8 Mk82 bombs or 8 rocket pods, or 4 bombs/pods and 2 fuel tanks) and for the first time two Sidewinders on the wing tips. It had some FLIR and laser range-finder internally.
It also had a 30mm gun pod on centerline, the same that on the UK Hawk. A USAF style refueling systems was initially planned, but due to some risks for the tail (very close to the refueling receptacle), a Probe & Drogue system was finally adopted.
This plane served during the Panama Invasion in 1989.

-The OA-45B variant appeared in 1989, too late for the Panama crisis, but in time for a Gulf War deployment for the first operationnal squadron, alongside the A-10 and OA-10 aircrafts. It integrated a new centerline gear that include a 20mm gun and a semi-recessed laser designator (the combined system wasn't fully operational until 1993, due to the heavy vibrations problems on the pod when the gun fired)


US Army A/T-45B??
Why not? If we imagine that they keep a fixed wing combat capability, the Hawk 100 and Hawk 200 could be good replacement or complement for the G.91 Gina, the A-4 and the OV-10 Bronco, what do you think?





And I also thought about a twin engined variant of the Hawk. The Italian did it with the G.91, so why not on the Hawk? It wil probably needs new larger intakes, and we have to check for an available engine (light and smaller than the ADOUR, but with more than half the ADOUR thrust, of course!)
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Jeffry Fontaine on April 02, 2008, 11:56:42 am
US Army A/T-45B?? Why not? If we imagine that they keep a fixed wing combat capability, the Hawk 100 and Hawk 200 could be good replacement or complement for the G.91 Gina, the A-4 and the OV-10 Bronco, what do you think?
The Army would be better off using a slower propeller driven aircraft for a combat support aircraft.  Giving the Army something that can loiter and actually spot targets on the ground instead of zipping around at speeds that preclude that ability.  It would also calm the super-egos in the USAF since the slower aircraft would not be considered as a serious threat to their own domain. 

And I also thought about a twin engined variant of the Hawk. The Italian did it with the G.91, so why not on the Hawk? It wil probably needs new larger intakes, and we have to check for an available engine (light and smaller than the ADOUR, but with more than half the ADOUR thrust, of course!)
A twin engine Hawk?  Sounds like a potential kit-bashing between a smaller scale F-4 Phantom and a larger scale Hawk to get the right physical features incorporated into the aircraft.
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on April 08, 2008, 08:43:06 pm
As I couldn't sleep tonight, I started to heavily modified a 1/72 Airfix Hawk T.1 into a kind of "Hawk 300" combat and training aircraft.

The most visible modification is the long nose of the bird. The main was to have both a FLIR and a radar into a twin-seater variant for all weather multipurpose operations (including BVR ability).
As the nose is still thinner than the Hawk 200's one, the radar will probably be lighter APG-67 (later replaced by an AESA APG-67)

The back seat could be replace in few hours by an additional internal fuel tank. I also think that I will had an internal 20mm gun for it (but maybe in this case I'll have to definitively replace the back seat by fuel and ammos, what do you think?)


Less visible on the model until you have a unmodified Hawk 100 next to it to compare, but probably more important for a "real" airplane: the shape of the fuselage is largely modified with putty and styrene, so the plane is larger and heavier than a conventional Hawk, probably with more internal fuel too. The intakes will be probably enlarged too.

That's here I need you (with the back seat question too ;) ):
What kind of engine could fit into a enlarged Hawk?

I used a reduce Super Etendard exhaust in the model, but I imagine an engine far smaller and more modern than the ATAR. Maybe something in the 3500 or 4000kg of thrust?
I initially imagined a F124 derived. An enlarged derivative of the engine, with lower fuel consumption. But I just don't know a single thing about how an engine works!!

I'm open to every idea, as I'm still not sure about the backstory! It could be a late 70's, a 80's, or even a 2010's solution, whatever!  ;D
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Shasper on April 09, 2008, 06:16:34 am
The original Hawk 200 had dual 30mm internal, so a single 20mm breech-type gun shouldnt be an issue.

Shas 8)
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on April 09, 2008, 11:56:33 am
Yes, but the twin 25mm of the Hawk 200 were in a pure single seater, while my Hawk 300 is based on the twin-seater (I had no Hawk 200 kit)

But eventualy, I think I will transform it into a pure single seater, like the Japanese F-1 derived from the T-2: the back seat will be replace by fuel, electronic and ammunitions for the gun.

Hey! What about a Japanese derivative of the plane? After all the transformation they made to the Jaguar design (T-2 and F-1) and the F-16 (F-2), why not a heavily modified Hawk? What if their T-4 was based on the Hawk-like design instead of the Alpha Jet like?
Someone did it for the JASDF group build, right?
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on April 23, 2008, 05:30:17 pm
Hello eveybody.
I continued to work on my "Hawk 300" project. I will soon post some pictures on the appropriate forum (Workbench), but for the moment I stay in this forum because some thought about the missions/customers/weapons could be interesting for everyone.

The kit will be far more modified that what I initially thought, but it still looks like a Hawk (like a Mirage 2000 looks like a Mirage III). It will have larger wings, larger engine (maybe a lighter F404 with no afterburner, but not sure for the moment), larger fuselage, new larger air intakes (from a Gripen kit) etc...



But the interesting things could work for standard Hawks.
For the country, as I said, I keep the USAF idea in mind, and think about Brazilian Navy, USMC, US Navy or RAF. So I'm still not sure if it will be navalised or not.
For the missions, I thought about old and new ones:
-COIN, CAS and anti-tank/vehicules (USAF or RAF as a A-10 and AH-64 complement, after Afghanistan and Irak learnings)
-Naval interception and strike for light carriers (for the Brazilian Navy, as a A-4 replacement)
-Anti-helicopter, as an escort for CAS/COIN aircraft
etc...

Those configurations are just excuses for new weapons payload! ;D
For the CAS/COIN/anti-tank missions, I imagined a high-tech grenade launcher with a large variety of ammunitions (details in the workbench thread as soon as possible), but also laser guided rockets and an adaptation of the European BONUS (http://www.defense-update.com/products/b/bonus.htm) ammunition (that was planed for French UCAVs)
For the naval plane, typical payload could include AMRAAM and Sidewinder, of course, but also AGM-65, GBU and Penguin anti-ship missiles.
For the anti-helicopter role, but also as a self-defense for the CAS/COIN, a new enlarged Stinger missile (Stinger XR for eXtended Range) could be use to deal with helicopters, UAVs, planes at low levels but also, why not, as a light anti-radar missiles using a GPS/INS system (French missile ASSM already do this: the ECM suite of the plane designed the radar and the missile is launch on the coordinates)


What do you think about that?
I think the kit will probably be in anti-helicopter configuration, as it sounds the coolest for me!
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Aircav on April 23, 2008, 11:14:23 pm
Some cool video of the BONUS Artillery Launched Precision Guided Munitions system  :thumbsup:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xdRXVizij4
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: gofy on November 17, 2010, 01:33:08 pm
What about Blue Vixen (APG-65 or later for USAF) radar in the Hawk 100?  Maybe a F-5 replacement.
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Old Paul on November 25, 2010, 06:43:58 am
Does anyone have some definitive comparison figure for the Adour and EJ200? As far as I can make out from various sources (and subject to fairly suspect imperial/metric conversions :unsure:):

Diameter; Adour - 0.570m; EJ200 - 0.737m.

Length: Adour - 2.9m (but is this with afterburner?); EJ200 4.0m with afterburner (but how long without? About 3.0m?)

Weight: Adour - 809kg; EJ200 - 989kg without afterburner.

Thrust (dry): Adour - 6500lbf; EJ200 - 13500lbf.

SFC: Adour - 23g/kNs (but converted manually! :unsure:): EJ200 - 21-23g/kNs.

Can anyone imrpove on these figures? And how practical would a stretch be to accomodate the EJ200? Maybe with additional fuel replacing the rear seat, as per the Aero L-159?

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_L-159_Top_Armed_lg.jpg
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Mossie on March 15, 2011, 07:44:35 am
Been looking for photo proof of Red Arrows Hawks carrying weapons for ages.  I knew I'd seen it somewhere years ago.  I've tried a web search before to no avail, tried it now & a few came up:

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/Aircraft/HawkRedArrowsarmedwithsidewindersgunpod03.jpg)

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/Aircraft/HawkRedArrowsarmedwithsidewindersgunpod01.jpg)

(http://i72.photobucket.com/albums/i176/Mossie105/Aircraft/HawkRedArrowsarmedwithsidewindersgunpod02.jpg)
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 15, 2011, 12:30:09 pm
When Red 1 calls 'Smoke on, GO!' I hope the guys astern press the right button.............
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PR19_Kit on December 13, 2012, 02:54:55 pm
Which is the best 1/72 scale Hawk kit, the older Airfix one or the newer, but cheaper, Revell/Italeri one?

And please include the new Airfix 100 version as well.
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: deathjester on December 13, 2012, 03:22:40 pm
Does anyone have some definitive comparison figure for the Adour and EJ200? As far as I can make out from various sources (and subject to fairly suspect imperial/metric conversions :unsure:):

Diameter; Adour - 0.570m; EJ200 - 0.737m.

Length: Adour - 2.9m (but is this with afterburner?); EJ200 4.0m with afterburner (but how long without? About 3.0m?)

Weight: Adour - 809kg; EJ200 - 989kg without afterburner.

Thrust (dry): Adour - 6500lbf; EJ200 - 13500lbf.

SFC: Adour - 23g/kNs (but converted manually! :unsure:): EJ200 - 21-23g/kNs.

Can anyone imrpove on these figures? And how practical would a stretch be to accomodate the EJ200? Maybe with additional fuel replacing the rear seat, as per the Aero L-159?

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_L-159_Top_Armed_lg.jpg
How about the afterburning Adour from the Jaguar?  That's what I put in my Seahawk II...
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: CSMO on December 26, 2012, 10:00:35 am
Reference an earlier post in this thread. Kinetic is producing a 1/48 T-45 Goshawk. I read a couple of threads on Hyperscale, and I have seen the ads for one. Adios, Larry.
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Slerski on December 27, 2012, 01:10:16 am
Does anyone have some definitive comparison figure for the Adour and EJ200? As far as I can make out from various sources (and subject to fairly suspect imperial/metric conversions :unsure:):

Diameter; Adour - 0.570m; EJ200 - 0.737m.

Length: Adour - 2.9m (but is this with afterburner?); EJ200 4.0m with afterburner (but how long without? About 3.0m?)

Weight: Adour - 809kg; EJ200 - 989kg without afterburner.

Thrust (dry): Adour - 6500lbf; EJ200 - 13500lbf.

SFC: Adour - 23g/kNs (but converted manually! :unsure:): EJ200 - 21-23g/kNs.

Can anyone imrpove on these figures? And how practical would a stretch be to accomodate the EJ200? Maybe with additional fuel replacing the rear seat, as per the Aero L-159?

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_L-159_Top_Armed_lg.jpg
How about the afterburning Adour from the Jaguar?  That's what I put in my Seahawk II...

Don't know if I will answer to the question but...

"Dry" Adour (for Hawk for example) : length 1,96 m / diameter 0,58 m / weight 589 kg / max thrust 27 kN (dry)
"Afterburning" Adour (for Jaguar) : length 2,9 m / diameter 0,59 m / weight 809 kg / max thrust 37,4 kN (afterburning)
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: AS.12 on February 25, 2013, 02:02:02 am
Quick note re: Hawk 200 internal cannons.  Came across a couple of threads when researching something else, which state that whilst there were cut-outs made in the fuselage frames for a single 25mm ADEN there was no serious attempt to fit it or to mitigate the noise & shock on the neighbouring, tightly-packed avionics.

Here's one on pprune: http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/248734-uk-signs-hawk-128-contract.html#post3814651 (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/248734-uk-signs-hawk-128-contract.html#post3814651)

Unfortunately seems to have been real-life whiffery from the Brough boys.

Of course the 25mm died soon after and all attention reverted to the 30mm pod.
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: rickshaw on June 03, 2014, 01:18:19 am
Very interesting history of the development of the BAE Hawk - http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/Publications/The%20Journal%20of%20Aeronautical%20History/2013-01_HawkStory-Fraser-Mitchell.pdf

Check out the armament options on page 46...   :o
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PR19_Kit on June 03, 2014, 07:35:25 am
Which is the best 1/72 scale Hawk kit, the older Airfix one or the newer, but cheaper, Revell/Italeri one?

And please include the new Airfix 100 version as well.

No-one answered this post...........  :banghead: :unsure:
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Devilfish on June 03, 2014, 07:44:32 am
Just saw this thread.  I have built 2 what-if British military combat Hawks. Both from the Airfix 1/48 kit

The TF.3

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,32508.0/highlight,hawk+tf+3.html

And the Sea Hawk S.1

http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,36805.0/highlight,sea+hawk+s+1.html
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: kitnut617 on June 03, 2014, 09:49:27 am
Which is the best 1/72 scale Hawk kit, the older Airfix one or the newer, but cheaper, Revell/Italeri one?

And please include the new Airfix 100 version as well.

No-one answered this post...........  :banghead: :unsure:

Got most of those Kit, but I haven't made any to say which one is best. The only one I've made so far is the Goshawk which was the Testors boxing of it too.
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: TallEng on June 03, 2014, 11:47:11 am
Which is the best 1/72 scale Hawk kit, the older Airfix one or the newer, but cheaper, Revell/Italeri one?

And please include the new Airfix 100 version as well.

No-one answered this post...........  :banghead: :unsure:

Well I will then, without measuring etc etc, the Italeri/revell Hawk doesn't look 'right' around the canopy
Area, it looks too domed. The old Airfix one looks fine but you'll need to make slightly bigger ventral strakes.

And the new Airfix 100 can't say anything about as I've not built one
Hope that helps a bit :thumbsup:

Regards
Keith
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: kitbasher on June 03, 2014, 03:10:06 pm
Well.....
Potential heresy moment, but.....
In 1/72 I've always felt the Matchbox T.1 vary very good.  For many years the only one with wing fences, and when Italeri's came out scored points over The Italian Job by dint of the fences being in the right place. Needs aftermarket seats and is lacking detail in places, but nice.
The recent Airfix Hawk 100-series kit looks very nice (I've one in the stash).
Matchbox produced the best 200.  OK the only 200!
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PR19_Kit on June 03, 2014, 04:12:59 pm
Excellent, thanks very much guys.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Dizzyfugu on June 04, 2014, 01:37:41 am
Matchbox produced the best 200.  OK the only 200!

And it's ugly, with dreaded trenches. IIRC there was/is also a resin conversion set out there, but I cannot tell if that's actually the better option if you want a single seater?
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Thorvic on June 04, 2014, 04:17:19 am
Scalecast did the original Hawk 200 conversion set, but neomega now do forward fuselage for the Italeri Hawk 100 kit and a full replacement fuselage for the Airfix Hawk 100 kit.

http://www.neomega-resin.com/172nd-bae-hawk-200-conversion-for-airfix-hawk-100-kit-120-p.asp (http://www.neomega-resin.com/172nd-bae-hawk-200-conversion-for-airfix-hawk-100-kit-120-p.asp)
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Howard of Effingham on June 04, 2014, 07:07:16 am
Which is the best 1/72 scale Hawk kit, the older Airfix one or the newer, but cheaper, Revell/Italeri one?

And please include the new Airfix 100 version as well.
No-one answered this post...........  :banghead: :unsure:

both of the airfix ones are imho better than the revell/italeri ones, though the first airfix one was fairly chunky in places. the new airfix one is good but the decals in the 100 series airfix kit aren't as good as they could be.

stick with airfix kits kit for early and new hawks,  ;) ;D

Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Dizzyfugu on June 04, 2014, 07:13:16 am
Scalecast did the original Hawk 200 conversion set, but neomega now do forward fuselage for the Italeri Hawk 100 kit and a full replacement fuselage for the Airfix Hawk 100 kit.

http://www.neomega-resin.com/172nd-bae-hawk-200-conversion-for-airfix-hawk-100-kit-120-p.asp (http://www.neomega-resin.com/172nd-bae-hawk-200-conversion-for-airfix-hawk-100-kit-120-p.asp)

Ah, yes, that's the one I had in mind!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: PR19_Kit on June 04, 2014, 07:40:30 am
I do wish BAe would get their act together and swap names on the series 200 and 100.

Who in their mind gives a TWO seater a 100 series title, and a SINGLE seater a 200 series title?  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Weaver on June 04, 2014, 09:47:34 am
Well the 100 series was a natural evolution of the 50 series and 60 series which were all two-seaters, with the series names established before anyone ever bought a single-seater, so I guess "200 series" was the next "logical" different series that left plently of room below it for further two-seater versions ( 127, 128 etc...).

Since they've established the principle of "thingy-hawk" names with the "Goshawk", why not call the 200 series the "Warhawk", since it unambiguously has no other purpose?
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: kitnut617 on June 04, 2014, 09:58:00 am
I do wish BAe would get their act together and swap names on the series 200 and 100.

Who in their mind gives a TWO seater a 100 series title, and a SINGLE seater a 200 series title?  :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

You could argue the same point over the Typhoon, the T1 is a two-seater, the F2 is a single seater    :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: pyro-manic on June 04, 2014, 01:22:43 pm
Yes, but there the letter's the important bit, not the mark number. And given we're now on to T.3 and FGR.4, a four-seater isn't terribly plausible... :D The Hawk 128 is designated T.2 in service.

What about the Fujimi Hawk T.1 kit? I haven't built one, but I have one in the stash and it looks pretty nice in terms of detail.
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Gondor on June 05, 2014, 11:58:54 am
Scalecast did the original Hawk 200 conversion set, but neomega now do forward fuselage for the Italeri Hawk 100 kit and a full replacement fuselage for the Airfix Hawk 100 kit.

http://www.neomega-resin.com/172nd-bae-hawk-200-conversion-for-airfix-hawk-100-kit-120-p.asp (http://www.neomega-resin.com/172nd-bae-hawk-200-conversion-for-airfix-hawk-100-kit-120-p.asp)

You have a habit of making people part with money, good job for me that your not in retail  :blink:

Gondor
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Weaver on June 05, 2014, 12:41:12 pm
We don't call him the Evil Kit-Finder General for nothing.... :wacko:
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: McColm on June 05, 2014, 06:38:22 pm
No, he excepts money.
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Mossie on January 12, 2016, 06:58:13 am
PDF On the development of the Hawk, good reading:
http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/Publications/The%20Journal%20of%20Aeronautical%20History/2013-01_HawkStory-Fraser-Mitchell.pdf
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Nick on January 29, 2016, 02:59:28 pm
PDF On the development of the Hawk, good reading:
http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/Publications/The%20Journal%20of%20Aeronautical%20History/2013-01_HawkStory-Fraser-Mitchell.pdf


That is a very good read, well done for finding it. I'd totally forgotten about starting this thread way back in 2003  ;D
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 21, 2017, 03:49:41 pm
RNZAF SkyHawk-200

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/SkyHawk-200.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/SkyHawk-200.jpg.html)
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: McColm on November 22, 2017, 03:35:33 am
That's very good :thumbsup:
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Dizzyfugu on November 22, 2017, 05:10:38 am
But unlikely - you'd probably have to mate an 1:72 Hawk with an 1:100 A-4 tail?
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: ysi_maniac on November 23, 2017, 07:25:51 am
Hawk-200 + Strikemaster

(http://i1080.photobucket.com/albums/j340/ysi_maniac/Drawing/hawk200_strikemaster_3v.jpg) (http://s1080.photobucket.com/user/ysi_maniac/media/Drawing/hawk200_strikemaster_3v.jpg.html)
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Weaver on December 26, 2018, 05:40:06 am
PDF On the development of the Hawk, good reading:
http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/Publications/The%20Journal%20of%20Aeronautical%20History/2013-01_HawkStory-Fraser-Mitchell.pdf

LMAO - just found this independently and came here all excited to post the link..... ;D :thumbsup:
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Mossie on December 27, 2018, 11:57:36 am
PDF On the development of the Hawk, good reading:
http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/Publications/The%20Journal%20of%20Aeronautical%20History/2013-01_HawkStory-Fraser-Mitchell.pdf

LMAO - just found this independently and came here all excited to post the link..... ;D :thumbsup:

I'm glad you mentioned it, I forgot all about it!  I often pick up my various Hawk kits wondering what I can do with them.  I probably found the link on one of those occasions.
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Zero-Sen on December 30, 2018, 04:30:44 am
Quote from: Mossie
...  I often pick up my various Hawk kits wondering what I can do with them...

One of your ideas...
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7902/45801995074_9da413983d_o.jpg)
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Mossie on December 31, 2018, 10:02:49 am
I thank you!  I had thought about turning that into plastic, trouble is I lost the canopy from my Matchbox Hawk 200.
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Rick Lowe on December 31, 2018, 11:49:51 pm
Mossie, how about using the 2-seater canopy? Fill the rear part and file it down a bit, and there you go.
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: kitnut617 on January 01, 2019, 07:03:12 am
Simon, the way you have worked that single canopy, it looks like a Harrier one, or a Jaguar at a pinch --
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: JayBee on January 01, 2019, 07:35:14 am
While the Hawk can be thought of as a state of the art Hunter. That single seater looks even more like it.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: kitnut617 on January 01, 2019, 08:56:58 am
You reference to the Hunter Jim, got me thinking of another aircraft the canopy looks a bit like, the SAAB Gripen's canopy
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: Mossie on January 01, 2019, 09:25:28 am
I've got a Harrier Ii canopy in the spares box, I'm sure that won't fit but an earlier one might.  I haven't got a Jag to check.

I've got a feeling that the Hawk 200 canopy is in another box, either that or it's in another project, that of turning my garage into a 1/1 landfill site. :o
Title: Re: BAE Hawk and T-45 Goshawk
Post by: JayBee on January 01, 2019, 11:53:27 am
Simon, PM sent.