What if

Hot Research Topics => Aircraft, Armor, Weapons and Ships by Topic => Topic started by: PolluxDeltaSeven on May 10, 2006, 07:41:59 am

Title: Royal Navy and FAA Squadron Identification
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on May 10, 2006, 07:41:59 am
Hello everybody!!

I came here to ask you some information about the British naval squadrons: I planed to draw some profiles of RN Hornet and I want to do them as realistic as possible... and as I don't know a thing about Royal Navy squadrons, I ask you some help...

What I need is maybe a web site with informations about the different RN squadron, but well, if you have information about at least a single squadron, that could be enough...
I need to know the name of the squadron (is it really "squadron" ? In france we have different words for naval and air squadrons), it's land base and it's markings (I mean the tail drawing, something like that...)

And well, if someone's got a favourite squadron and some information about it, or scheme colors ideas, a "Britishised" name for the Hornet etc..., it will be a pleasure for me to drawn my Hornet following your ideas, guys!!


Thank you all ;)


PS: to describe the UK Hornet, it will be the British version of the F-18FL I posted in the "Alternative History" part of the forum: for its CVF, Royal Navy chose the F-18FL (renamed F-18KL??) after a short competition between the F/A-18E, the F-18FL and the F-35...
Entering the service around 2010 and becoming the single fighter of the RN...

Voilą!!
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: Geoff_B on May 10, 2006, 08:51:43 am
For some reason the Fleet Air Squadrons are not covered as well on-line as the RAF versions. With the Fleet Air they are all numbered and the number sequence has some impact upon its role.

The Squadrons numbered 701-799 are all either training or 2nd line duty squadrons where their aircraft would not be inviolved in front line service. 700 squadron is the new aircraft operatioanl evaluation and development squadron, its last use being for bringing the EH101 Merlin HAS1 into service.

The 800-899 range represents the the front line squadrons and is split into ranges:-

800-809 was for the strike/fighters so traditionally the smaller fighters and the attack aircraft.

810-839 is now the ASWAsuW squadrons

845-848 is the Comando helicopter range for supporting the Royal Marines

849 is ASW Sqdns

890-899 was again for the fighter squadrons and larger 2 seat interceptors (Sea Vixen, Phantom etc)

The range betwwen 850-889 was assigned to other Naval air wings. The Dutch used FAA sqdn allocations as did the Canadians, the Austrailians actually took some of the British numbers when they took over their carriers soe 805 Sqdn is now an RAN rather than RN squadron.

The Sea Harriers were 800,801 (809 for a sort period around the Falklands war) and 899 was the shore based training Squadron. (Originally 802 was going to be the third sqdn).

The Lynx Helicopters were 815 & 829 , Seakings vary from 810 - 825, Sea King Commando's (Junglies) are 845-848.

Previously the Scimitars were 803, 804, 807 & 809, Buccaneers were 801, 803, 804 & 809, Phantom was 767 & 892, Sea Vixen was 764, 890, 891, 892, 893 & 899.

Most squadron symbols developed post war have been derived from the original squadron badge, but these have varied over the years depending on the era and what sort of style was suitable and simple enough, eg 899 went from the Red Gauntlet (symbol of a Northern Ireland originated squadron to the winged fist familiar on the Sea harriers.

Cheers

Geoff
 
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on May 10, 2006, 12:18:02 pm
Thanks for all your explanations Thorvic!! Thanks a lot!

Okay, now I'm sure of one thing: I don't have to do a mistake ;)


Well, i'll probably chose one of the Harrier squadron: 800, 801 or maybe even 802... It will depend on which will have the most beautiful tail symbol...

If someone has got more info or pictures, ;)
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: Geoff_B on May 10, 2006, 02:09:03 pm
Quote
Thanks for all your explanations Thorvic!! Thanks a lot!

Okay, now I'm sure of one thing: I don't have to do a mistake ;)


Well, i'll probably chose one of the Harrier squadron: 800, 801 or maybe even 802... It will depend on which will have the most beautiful tail symbol...

If someone has got more info or pictures, ;)
Actually you should seriously consider 803 Sqdn, if you PM me your email i will send you the details expaining why ;). It would be the most suitable squadron to use.

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: XV107 on May 10, 2006, 02:40:31 pm
I agree with Thorvic - 803 would be a very good choice indeed (as a clue, if you're any good at Latin, the squadron motto is 'Cave Punctum') ... It also has heritage in the roles that the Hornet would used for.

If you want an RN tiger squadron for a different  profile, then 804 (Sabre Tooth Tiger head badge) is the one to go for, while the 809 phoenix (similar but not identical to the badge of 56 Sqn RAF) is another good one.

899's 'Winged Fist'/ 'Flying Gauntlet' (I've seen both descriptions used) looks good on most things.

A shark mouth would require the use of 894 NAS, which wore them on its Sea Venoms, although the squadron badge is in fact a rather odd looking sea horse - not the seahorse, but a sort of 'merhorse' with a fish tail and a horse's upper body. (See the Matchbox 1/32 Sea Venom)

807's badge used a circle of seven swords, which they rendered as a single scimitar when they were flying the... Scimitar.

806 is the unit that employed the large ace of hearts device on the front of Sea Hawks in the 1950s (as seen on the RN Historic Flight Sea Hawk), and as a high-scoring fighter unit from WW2 would be in with a shout of reformation, I suppose.




 
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: Geoff_B on May 10, 2006, 02:54:26 pm
Quote
I agree with Thorvic - 803 would be a very good choice indeed (as a clue, if you're any good at Latin, the squadron motto is 'Cave Punctum') ... It also has heritage in the roles that the Hornet would used for.

If you want an RN tiger squadron for a different  profile, then 804 (Sabre Tooth Tiger head badge) is the one to go for, while the 809 phoenix (similar but not identical to the badge of 56 Sqn RAF) is another good one.

899's 'Winged Fist'/ 'Flying Gauntlet' (I've seen both descriptions used) looks good on most things.

A shark mouth would require the use of 894 NAS, which wore them on its Sea Venoms, although the squadron badge is in fact a rather odd looking sea horse - not the seahorse, but a sort of 'merhorse' with a fish tail and a horse's upper body. (See the Matchbox 1/32 Sea Venom)

807's badge used a circle of seven swords, which they rendered as a single scimitar when they were flying the... Scimitar.

806 is the unit that employed the large ace of hearts device on the front of Sea Hawks in the 1950s (as seen on the RN Historic Flight Sea Hawk), and as a high-scoring fighter unit from WW2 would be in with a shout of reformation, I suppose.
Actually one of the ideas i've had floating around for some time as Wooksta & MartinH will know is for a What-if decal set of FAA Sqaudron Badges should they have continued as a main stream Naval Air Arm. Many of the key squadrons disappeared with the carriers just as the tail art concept was really coming into its own.

That whay one of my pet hates is seeing what-if aircraft sporting the 892 sqdn Phantom Markings as this was a special scheme that dispensed with the squadrom image and replaced it with the greek Omega charachter to represent the last fixed wing front line Fleet Air Squadron as Omega was the last grrek letter. In fact the 801 Sqdn Sea Harrier FA2 carried a white omega super impossed on their traditional winged trident symbol in black to represent the last proper squadron during the last 12 months  :(

Cheers

Geoff B B)  
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on May 10, 2006, 03:43:32 pm
Wow!! So much knowledges!!
 ;)


OK Thor, I PM you my mail adress (that's my MSN too) and I probably go for the 804...
But after all, don't know forthe moment, but with something like 92 Hornet bought, I think I could have more than a single squadron... and more than a single profile ;)

For the moment, I think about a Fractal light/dark grey camo, a classic grey, a sand-pink Gulf War IV scheme and... well that's all for the moment...
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: P1127 on May 10, 2006, 04:26:22 pm
Quote
For some reason the Fleet Air Squadrons are not covered as well on-line as the RAF versions.
Depends on whether or not you know where to look!!

http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Squadron...adronIndex.html (http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Squadrons/700-1800_SquadronIndex.html)

Not perfect, but a start!
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: elmayerle on May 10, 2006, 06:36:47 pm
Quote
I agree with Thorvic - 803 would be a very good choice indeed (as a clue, if you're any good at Latin, the squadron motto is 'Cave Punctum') ... It also has heritage in the roles that the Hornet would used for.

If you want an RN tiger squadron for a different  profile, then 804 (Sabre Tooth Tiger head badge) is the one to go for, while the 809 phoenix (similar but not identical to the badge of 56 Sqn RAF) is another good one.

899's 'Winged Fist'/ 'Flying Gauntlet' (I've seen both descriptions used) looks good on most things.

A shark mouth would require the use of 894 NAS, which wore them on its Sea Venoms, although the squadron badge is in fact a rather odd looking sea horse - not the seahorse, but a sort of 'merhorse' with a fish tail and a horse's upper body. (See the Matchbox 1/32 Sea Venom)

807's badge used a circle of seven swords, which they rendered as a single scimitar when they were flying the... Scimitar.

806 is the unit that employed the large ace of hearts device on the front of Sea Hawks in the 1950s (as seen on the RN Historic Flight Sea Hawk), and as a high-scoring fighter unit from WW2 would be in with a shout of reformation, I suppose.
Projects in the "collecting all necessary supplies" stage are 804NAS Harrier FG.11s in 1/48 and 1/72.  1/48 to be as a display aircraft and 1/72 to be as an operational aircraft armed with 2 ea. ASRAAMs, AMRAAMs, tanks, and Meteors plus the cannon.
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: Leigh on May 10, 2006, 07:03:12 pm
Quote

Actually you should seriously consider 803 Sqdn, if you PM me your email i will send you the details expaining why ;). It would be the most suitable squadron to use.

Cheers

Geoff
Wot the rest of us aren't worthy? God I hate being left out.
Pray tell us all, you never know who might find it useful for an F.A.A wif.
Would it work for a Crusader or a Skyhawk?
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: Sentinel Chicken on May 10, 2006, 07:43:46 pm
So was it just the red chevron/arrowhead marking that should have been the tail markings in any what-if of 801 NAS instead of using the Omega character?
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: Geoff_B on May 10, 2006, 11:17:00 pm
Quote
So was it just the red chevron/arrowhead marking that should have been the tail markings in any what-if of 801 NAS instead of using the Omega character?
801 Sqdn is just the winged Trident with a Black & White checked rudder or tail fin  as per the Sea Harriers. They added a white Omega over the existing Trident markings as a gesture to indicate the last sqdn.
892 Sqdn was originally a Foxes head over a cresent moon to represent the night fighter aspects of the squadron ands its motto "Strike Unseen". So if 892sqdn hadn't been the last toom sqdn chances are it would have had a form of fox head & moon slither rather than the Omega symbol.

G
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: Nigel Bunker on May 11, 2006, 12:34:53 am
A good source I use for FAA squadron emblems is the Modeldecal range. Sheet 57 is useful for Seahawk squadrons whilst other sheets have decals for Seahawks and Attackers. I believe the Modelart range also has some available.

So far, I have used these to make an 897 Sqn Phantom FR.4 and an 810 Sqn Jaguar S.3, both of which I be taking to Coventry in a few weeks.

I am in total agreement with Geoff about 892 Sqn markings. Anybody who wants an idea of what they would probably have been based on should look at the Frog/Novo/Revell/et al Sea Vixen which has markings for 892 and 899 Sqns.

PS - does anybody have a set of the old Airfix Seahawk transfers? I am after the tiger's head decals for an as yet un-named FAA project.

 
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: P1127 on May 11, 2006, 05:52:46 am
Quote
Quote

Actually you should seriously consider 803 Sqdn, if you PM me your email i will send you the details expaining why ;). It would be the most suitable squadron to use.

Cheers

Geoff
Wot the rest of us aren't worthy? God I hate being left out.
Pray tell us all, you never know who might find it useful for an F.A.A wif.
Would it work for a Crusader or a Skyhawk?
not in the same way - this is 803's Badge. You can see why it would be ideal for an F-18

(http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Squadrons/803crest.jpg)

For a Crusader, 890 might be a good choice, with a Knight in their Squadron badge (albeit that their last Squadron markingh was a witch!) and for a Skyhwak, 767 or 895 both have Hawks in their Squadron badges
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: Geoff_B on May 11, 2006, 08:58:14 am
Quote
Quote

Actually you should seriously consider 803 Sqdn, if you PM me your email i will send you the details expaining why ;). It would be the most suitable squadron to use.

Cheers

Geoff
Wot the rest of us aren't worthy? God I hate being left out.
Pray tell us all, you never know who might find it useful for an F.A.A wif.
Would it work for a Crusader or a Skyhawk?
Actually Leigh it was more a case to give PDS a chance to get the data and start the project before somebody claims first dibs on the idea. Sharing knowledge is fine but using a open forum can mean ideas and concepts can be poached before the originator has had a fair crack at them.

Hardly fair for PDS to do the research source decals only to find somebody posting up images based on the same data a week beforehand on this site or another.

As to the FAA sqdn website it only covers the WW2 era and not post war where the interesting markings started to appear, best reference i have is the Air Britain book on FAA sqadrons post war coupled with the Aircraft book by the same auther.

Nigel the Model Art Decals are also a very good source on fleet air aircraft covering most of the 50's & 60's jet types and squadrons. Their Sehawk sheet had both types of 804 tiger heads on.

Cheers

Geoff
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: PolluxDeltaSeven on May 11, 2006, 09:07:34 am
Hello everybody!

I just received your email Thor, thank you a lot...

Well, I'm still in the profile drawings and a lot of idea cames to me... French, British, but also African and maybe Asian planes!! :wub:
The project of a modernised F/A-18C (in my project it will be a Boeing-Thales-Safran codevelopped refit with M88-4 engines, RBE-2 radar, SPECTRA ECM etc etc...) looks more and more interesting for me, and I probably will draw at least a dozen or two profiles ą la Gekko or ą la Sentinel Chiken ;)

And of course, as I'm not Bill Gates, I can't build them all and, after this moment, I will be able to send the marking drawings for who want to print them on decal sheet, of course...

A little wait  ;)
I just finished my exams in two weeks  :P  
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: Leigh on May 11, 2006, 05:03:10 pm
Quote

Actually Leigh it was more a case to give PDS a chance to get the data and start the project before somebody claims first dibs on the idea. Sharing knowledge is fine but using a open forum can mean ideas and concepts can be poached before the originator has had a fair crack at them.

 
Fair dinkum, I thought it might be something juicy cos when I translated "cave punctum" I got this....
"Hollow place To penetrate"


oooer sounds a bit rude
Title: Need help about Royal Navy squadrons...
Post by: Nick on May 12, 2006, 03:41:59 pm
803's squadron motto is Cave Punctum, meaning 'Beware the Sting'. Pretty appropriate for a Hornet squadron IMHO!

Nick B)  
Title: FAA IDs
Post by: GTX on May 31, 2006, 02:00:05 pm
Geoff,

You may try here (http://www.thunder-and-lightnings.co.uk/contents.html) or  here (http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/) - whether they have the info you're after I'm not sure.

Regards,

Greg

 
Title: FAA IDs
Post by: XV107 on May 31, 2006, 02:31:56 pm
Geoff,

In Ray Sturtivant's 'Squadrons of the Fleet Air Arm', there is a section on aircraft code markings. This says:

"...at a meeting towards the end of 1923 aboard the battleship HMS Queen Elizabeth, it was decided that aircraft...would adopt standardised markings ...markings would consist of single or double digit numbers painted in a coloured band along the fuselage sides. The colour of each band would indicate the parent carrier of the flight concerned. Thus, of the carriers then in service or shortly to commission, HMS Argus' aircraft would carry green fuselage bands, those in HMS Furious red,  HMS Hermes white and HMS Eagle black. When HMS Courageous came into service it adopted blue and this was followed by yellow for HMS Glorious. Finally, just before the outbreak of war, HMS Ark Royal adopted a three coloured band consisting of two blue strips, separated by a read one, all of equal size..."


Moving up to point where the FAA became part of the RN, we get...

" the new FAA code markings [we're talking numbers rather than bands here] were first painted on the aircraft in May 1939...the new codes were initialy painted as before on the coloured fuselage carrier bands..."

Which suggests that the band colours didn't change; this is supported by a photo (in black & white) in WA Harrison's book on the Swordfish and Albacore (Crowood series) on page 50, which  is captioned: "Testing the engine before flying.... 825 Squadron when embarked upon HMS Glorious during 1939. The squadron band and fin were in yellow with the squadron badge on the fin".

In the absence of a confimatory colour photo of the time, this seems to be reasonable evidence to support yellow.

Hope that helps.
Title: FAA IDs
Post by: GTX on May 31, 2006, 02:49:26 pm
Supported by this picture of a restored Hawker Nimrod  of 802 squadron HMS Glorious:

(http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/ships/Nimrod_S1581_preserved_HAC_duxford_UK.jpg)

Regards,

Greg