For along time now I've had an idea for a whiff of a PRXI Spitfire with a second seat behind the cockpit like a Mk IX(T). This was because flying a PR aircraft required a totally different set of flying skills to flying a fighter, as my Dad never failed to tell me on more than one occasion. Thus a trainer PR aircraft to show the budding PR pilots 'how it's all done properly.
To this end I've had a KP Spitfire PRXI kit stashed in The Loft for some time, and a thing of beauty it is too, a really lovely kit. What I didn't have was the ancient M&E models Spitfire trainer conversion kit fuselage, until Modelsforsale had a 2nd hand one in stock last week. so now I've got both parts needed, or so I thought.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7223/ALy4Wv.jpg)
Opening the boxes/bags I set off to compare what needed to be chopped/sawn/cut etc. and found that the M&E conversion, being intended for the old M'box Spitfire IX, is NOTHING like the PRXI! It's maybe 6 mm too short, and the lengths of the fuselage fore and aft of the cockpit don't match either. I don't have an M'box Mk IX with me so can't compare its lengths so I've no idea which is right, but my money would be on the KP kit, it just LOOKS right.
But bizarrely it doesn't look as if I actually need the conversion anyway as comparing the positions of the 2nd cockpit with the KP fuselage shows that it's not only EXACTLY where the cameras would have gone in a 'normal' PRXI, but the only difference is the cutout for the 2nd cockpit!
So why not just cut the slot out of the rear of the PRXI kit and use the M&E canopy over it? I think that's what I'll do as well, after adding a bit of rear cockpit detail etc.
What to do with the M&E fuselage halves now though?
IIRC there were no fuselage plugs added to the Mk IXs converted to Tr9s, Kit.
That what I figured too, from what I've read. And the M&E fuselage is too SHORT by 5-6 mm or so!
It'll only be the odd shaped canopy that'll be worth using, with its almost vertical windscreen.
Or you could pick up the AZ Models 2-seater. https://www.scalemates.com/kits/azmodel-az-7603-supermarine-spitfire-tr9-raf--1182119 (https://www.scalemates.com/kits/azmodel-az-7603-supermarine-spitfire-tr9-raf--1182119)
Hmm, yes. I must admit I didn't know they did one!
Converting their Tr.9 into a PRXI would be child's play, specially as the KP PTXI kit comes with two of the extra deep nose oil tanks, no idea why.
Thanks for that tip, I'll see if I can find one. :thumbsup:
Hmmm again.
That'd be OK if anyone actually had one. Everywhere is 'out of stock' or they don't know what I'm talking about.
There is one for sale from a shop in Japan, but they want £97.00 for it! Dunno who they think they're kidding, but this a 1/72 scale kit!!!!
I got the M&E conversion, many years ago, and its a dog!!! :rolleyes:
The Tr.9 front cockpit is 13 & one half inches further forward of Mk.IX.
An email to AZ? The worst they can say is, no! <_<
I know 'The Wooksta!', may have a few AZ Tr.9;s, In his stash,
If you are able to contact him, coz' he alerted me to the AZ kits,
when the came out!
I bought SIX of them, at the time, for my Irish air corps builds.
But, that was when we were ALL Europeans, and weren't punishing
each other, with ridiculous postage rates, and duties! :o
Cheers... Ray
CMR also did a Tr.9, so that's another possibility. AZ also did a Tr.8, though that will be harder to find than the Tr.9.
Gondor
Quote from: major on April 27, 2025, 04:54:23 PMThe Tr.9 front cockpit is 13 & one half inches further forward of Mk.IX.
Really? I've not heard that before.
So are the 'new build' ones that they've been churning out at Duxford over the last few years the same, or are their cockpits in the normal place.
I know the 'Grace Spitfire', ML407, has a standard positioned front cockpit as the late Mrs. Grace told me so herself one memorable day at Duxford.
I've got Lee's email and I'll try him for sure, thanks for the tip. :thumbsup:
I've got my eyes on a Brigade Models conversion too, so may try that route as well.
Image nabbed from Britmodeller.Bubble Spit.png
Oopps! meant to be this. ;D
Also from BM.
108b8a82-1218-414e-a285-f3d87803801c.png
Converting a Mk.IX to a Tr.9.
Quote from: PR19_Kit on April 27, 2025, 11:02:00 AMHmmm again.
That'd be OK if anyone actually had one. Everywhere is 'out of stock' or they don't know what I'm talking about.
There is one for sale from a shop in Japan, but they want £97.00 for it! Dunno who they think they're kidding, but this a 1/72 scale kit!!!!
Bloody 'ell! There's one cheaper and closer:
KingKit (https://www.kingkit.co.uk/product/az-model-aircraft-1-72-7478-supermarine-spitfire-tr8)
Quote from: The Rat on April 28, 2025, 12:29:45 PMBloody 'ell! There's one cheaper and closer: KingKit (https://www.kingkit.co.uk/product/az-model-aircraft-1-72-7478-supermarine-spitfire-tr8)
That one's a Tr.8 which is why it didn't show up on my search. It's still expensive, over twice as much as the price when it was new.
Quote from: PR19_Kit on April 28, 2025, 04:09:55 AMI've got my eyes on a Brigade Models conversion too, so may try that route as well.
I have the Brigade one somewhere, although a step up from the M&E one (which looks like the fuselage was based on the Frog Mk.VIII, not the Matchbox one it is supposed to fit?), it isn't very good. It is designed for the Italeri Mk.IX which isn't a great starting point. The best part is the shape of the rear canopy.
I have three of the M&E ones, goodness knows why!
Colin
Ah! And I've just put an order in with you Colin! :o
Could I add the Brigade conversion to my order and you invoice me for it please?
Quote from: PR19_Kit on April 29, 2025, 02:14:51 PMAh! And I've just put an order in with you Colin! :o
Could I add the Brigade conversion to my order and you invoice me for it please?
Certainly. I found it deep in the shed (which was the hardest part), and will add to the box. No charge for the Brigade set, I know it's going to a good home.
I've also included a white metal contra prop for the MB.5.
Thanks,
Colin
Colin, you're one GREAT guy, thanks very much. :thumbsup: :bow: :drink: :cheers: :party:
Why don't ppl make contra props in 48th ????
Would make my wiffy ideas a damn site easier to come to life I can tell ya .
Thanks to the wonderful Mr. Freightdog I now have a Brigade Models Tr.9 conversion kit. :thumbsup:
It's not perfect but it's a whole order better than the M&E one, lovely panel lines, and accurate shape too.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/2203/KpX2VK.jpg)
The fuselage halves needed a bit of fettling, but what low production kits don't? It came out looking pretty good once I'd done with the filing and sanding, and here it is compared to the KP PRXI fuselage.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/9431/h4aQXc.jpg)
You can see in this case they pretty well are the same, correct length, and the panel lines align with each other nicely, so it was out with the razor saw!
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/1417/U8irFk.jpg)
I didn't want to lose the superb wing/fuselage alignment of the KP kit, so sawed just the upper part of the fuselage out in both cases, and they fit pretty well. Nothing that a tad PSR won't sort out anyway. The big difference is the thickness of the mouldings, the Brigade one being almost THREE times as thick as the KP one! :o
I'll probably have to chop chunks off the KP cockpit interior to get it to fit, but it's a small canopy anyway, so no-one will notice that I'm sure. The Brigade conversion comes with a complete rear cockpit assembly, floor, panel and seat, but moulded in clear, along with the rear canopy, that's a bit different.
All in all, I'm quite pleased with the progress on this project so far, mostly thanks to Colin Freightdog! :bow: :bow: :drink: :cheers: :party:
Coincidence that Airfix Model World's June issue has a cover story about an Irish TR.9 build from their new kit?
Yeah, and it's 1/48 of course. :(
I've very little hope they'll do it in 1/72 as well, they just don't think like that any more.
Hmmm, it sort of works, or it will do once I've fettled the various bits of the Brigade conversion that don't match each other........... :(
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/6280/Rlu06O.jpg)
Overall the Brigade parts are too wide for the KP fuselage, but it was designed to fit the Italeri Mk. IX so I guess I can't complain too much. I've filed down the inboard edges of the Brigade parts and it's almost there now, but the various connection parts of the two cockpits don't match each other fore and aft, so they'll need a little trimming. The all important fit of the aft canopy is OK though, a big relief.
Trying to build the cockpit is trying, even SEEING the clear parts is difficult, but so far I have the KP seat and rudder bars matched with the Brigade floor OK. The clear rear panel will need painting before I can get it in place, now I just look right through it!
It's getting there, slowly.............
Assembling the cockpit of this one is really difficult, not helped by the thickness of the Brigade Models conversion's fuselage. I've mixed-and-matched the KP and Brigade cockpit parts as well as I can, with the KP parts severely narrowed, and the Brigade floor cracked and bent up to position the rear seat somewhere sensible. Built their way he'd not be able to see over the cockpit coaming, let alone instruct the pupil in the front seat! :o
I've got half a backstory written, explaining why they built a 2 seater AGES before Supermarine put them into production post-WWII, but I've been stymied in trying to find a suitable serial number for the PRXI(T). There are loads of lists available, but most of them totally ignore which Mark of Spitfire applies to which serial, showing just 'Spitfire' alongside the number. Totally useless. :thumbsup:
I've got Bruce Robertson's book on the subject at home, but that's 120 miles away just now. The book is wonderful, full of all sorts of handy blank sections in the serial lists, just the thing for whiffing. ;)
Quote from: PR19_Kit on May 02, 2025, 03:26:10 PMAssembling the cockpit of this one is really difficult, not helped by the thickness of the Brigade Models conversion's fuselage. I've mixed-and-matched the KP and Brigade cockpit parts as well as I can, with the KP parts severely narrowed, and the Brigade floor cracked and bent up to position the rear seat somewhere sensible. Built their way he'd not be able to see over the cockpit coaming, let alone instruct the pupil in the front seat! :o
I've got half a backstory written, explaining why they built a 2 seater AGES before Supermarine put them into production post-WWII, but I've been stymied in trying to find a suitable serial number for the PRXI(T). There are loads of lists available, but most of them totally ignore which Mark of Spitfire applies to which serial, showing just 'Spitfire' alongside the number. Totally useless. :thumbsup:
I've got Bruce Robertson's book on the subject at home, but that's 120 miles away just now. The book is wonderful, full of all sorts of handy blank sections in the serial lists, just the thing for whiffing. ;)
I have the Morgan & Shacklady book. What type of serial are you looking for? A Mk. IX converted to a XI, A straight build, or some other type of conversion?
Gondor
Quote from: Gondor on May 03, 2025, 01:56:53 AMI have the Morgan & Shacklady book. What type of serial are you looking for? A Mk. IX converted to a XI, A straight build, or some other type of conversion?
I've got 'The Book' too Alastair, but it's at home and I won't be there until the 10th.
I'm thinking of an early PRXI that had an accident and the 'wreckage' was converted to the PRXI(T) as an experiment. It ought to be in the EN series I reckon, but I'm not sure which of those were converted Mk XVIII airframes or built from scratch. IIRC the Mk IX conversions were early/middle period PRXIs, weren't they?
The Mk.XI was intended to be the PR version of the Mk.VIII but emerged as a version of the Mk.IX instead. The initial Mk.XI production was bolstered by converting former Mk.IX's with Merlin 61, 63 and 63A engines. The first converted aircraft was BS497, with EN343 and EN419 following.
From what I understand of the data given, the first pure build Mk.XI's were from a contract in 1940, they had serials from BS497-499 and 501-502. A couple of orders later, there were more Mk.XI's, serials EN149-151, 153-154, 260, 263, 330-332, 337-338, 341-343, 346-348, 385, 391, 395-396, 407-430, 503-504, 507-508 and 652-685.
Hope that helps you until you get to your references.
Gondor
Hmm, that's quit1e a bit different from what I've read on the Net, but I'd be inclined to believe 'The Book', it's the fount of all Spitfire knowledge really.
Lots of gaps in the EN ranges, which would suit my purpose nicely. ;D
Thanks for looking Alastair. :thumbsup:
Quote from: PR19_Kit on May 03, 2025, 05:35:55 AMHmm, that's quit1e a bit different from what I've read on the Net, but I'd be inclined to believe 'The Book', it's the fount of all Spitfire knowledge really.
Lots of gaps in the EN ranges, which would suit my purpose nicely. ;D
Thanks for looking Alastair. :thumbsup:
I would take care when picking a number that appears blank from the above list. It is possible that another aircraft type or types were allocated the numbers in my previous post.
Gondor
I'll check with Brian Robertson's book as well, just to make sure.
Here's the cockpit stuff all crammed into the fuselage side at last. It took a LOTS of filing to get the various seats, bulkheads etc. to get the port fuselage side to fit. There's NO way the rear seat for the Brigade conversion would fit inside their own fuselage halves, it's much too wide. But not any more. ;)
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/8974/Iocif8.jpg)
Quite how I'm going to paint that lot I'm not sure, and I KNOW the back seater has no joystick, but there's nowhere to put it anyway, and he'll have to have his feet amputated as well as the rear panel goes right down to the floor! But no-one will be able to see it, so I don't care.
The PRXI(T) has got to a critical point in its build now, both canopies have been attached. ;D
I did some painting of the cockpits, not that anyone will be able to see much of them, but I did it anyway, and glued the two fuselage halves together. Then had to spend a while on some PSR of course before test fitting the canopies. Needless to say, they didn't..........
So I had to do a fair amount of packing up edges, filing canopy seats and generally fiddling about until they did fit. As it was the Brigade rear canopy would NOT have fitted their fuselage, there would have been serious gaps under its outer edges, but not any more.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/7983/5KWu2J.jpg)
I gave the cockpit surround a basic coat of PRU Blue as even though I'll be doing some more PSR work the canopies overflow some parts of the fuselage. I'll be masking them up, doing the PSR and priming it all over before the final colour coat of course.
And now it looks like aeroplane. ;D
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img923/3320/oI0F5R.jpg)
Wings and tailplanes glued on now, with just a miniscule amount of PSR needed on the joints as all the bits are by KP at this stage.
Soon it'll be blue, but not with my fave Hataka paint as their PRU Blue is way too BLUE. It needs some grey in it and mixing that for a whole airframe may not work too well. I know I did it for the Dalgety, but the mix was pretty simple and there wasn't a RW blue to compare it to.
I'll try Humbrol acrylic as I know their PRU Blue is pretty well dead on.
Great progress, Kit. I'm glad you have managed to make use of the Brigade parts. I look forward to seeing it in the flesh!
Colin
Thanks Colin, goodness knows how anyone would have built the Brigade conversion for real, the styrene is SO thick! Almost no room for the cockpit stuff in there. But it's coming on quite nicely, all primed up now and ready for some colour.
To use one of my fave sayings yet again, 'Also available in blue'. ;D
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/876/sBkTpq.jpg)
PRU Blue that is, this time Humbrol 230 acrylic, and very nice it is too. Smack on for the colour, in my opinion, and covers very well with two coats. First time I've used Humbrol acrylics 'in anger' for a main colour and I'm well impressed.
I'm FED UP TO THE BACK TEETH with teeny weeny detail parts that are so damn small you haven't a HOPE of holding them in your fingers and have to use tweezers! Not only that, most of them don't` have proper location points, they're too small, and rely on butt joints with almost zero glue area. How the devil are they supposed to stay in place?
I've got to detailing the PRXI(T), and luckily it seems the 2 seaters don't have rear view mirrors on top of the canopy, nor do they have the aerial stick just behind the cockpit, the rear cockpit is in the way. In both cases for this KP kit the parts are ridiculously small, the mirror is just about 1.0 mm in diameter! I didn't fit those two parts, nor the under wing pitot as it pinged off into the distance, and it's on the underside of the wing anyway.
But worse, one of the tailwheel doors (3 mm x 1.5 mm and curved!) has also pinged off too and there's no way I'll EVER find it. How the hell I'm going to make another one of them I've no idea. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
In future I'm just not going to fit these ridiculously small parts, they'll just go straight in the bin!
I've had some armor parts as small as that. Looked like a rivet that could easily been molded on. Tossed that aside!
It's done, almost anyway.....................
Here's the singular Spitfire PRXI(T) PL839, a 2 seater modified to train PR pilots in the somewhat esoteric systems of PR flying, quite different from the usual sort of flying that Spitfire pilots did.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5711/oidarC.jpg)
PL839, one of the large batch of PRXIs built at Aldermaston in 1944, was assigned to 543 Sqdn. and ended up in their Western Flight operating out of RAF St. Eval in Cornwall, perched high on the cliffs just north of Newquay. St. Eval was known for its bizarre runway arrangement, all three runways crossing each other at the same central point, and for its appalling weather, it being very close to the western edge of England and getting both strong winds, and when it wasn't windy, it was extremely prone to fog.
PL839 was returning from a mission over France just prior to D Day and was running very short on fuel due to adverse winds, but these abated approaching St. Eval, and were replaced by the dreaded fog. Flt. Lt. Carter, PL839's pilot, decided to orbit until he could actually see a runway. but eventually just had to put down as his fuel gauge was bouncing off the bottom stop. Accordingly he got the aircraft down, but the fuel finally ran out just as he reached the centre point, and he came to a halt, and called the Tower for a tow back to 543's hangar. After a short while the crash crew loomed out of the mist along one of the cross runways and rammed the aircraft between the wing and tailplane! Carter was OK, but somewhat upset as some of 'take', the photos shot during the mission, were destroyed by the accident and he was sure it would all go down on his record too! PL839 was reckoned to be beyond repair and was stored up in the hangar while the rest of the country got on with invading Nazi occupied France.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2156/jhglCt.jpg)
As the Allies progressed through France, Belgium and the Netherlands en route to Germany, one of the PRDU staff discovered PL839's wreckage and that triggered an idea they'd been discussing at the PRDU's HQ at RAF Benson. There seemed to be a need to train new PR pilots in the extremely precise flying that good PR missions required and converting PL839 to a 'PR Trainer' seemed to be worth the effort. Accordingly the wreckage was moved to Benson, and with some assistance from Supermarine's design office not so far to the south, a second cockpit was installed aft of the normal one, which was moved forward some 18" by fitting a smaller forward fuel tank. The trainer wouldn't be needing the large fuel loads required by the long range pukka PR Spitfires of course.
As the second cockpit took the place of the longer lensed cameras, the PRXI(T), as it became known, was only fitted with the shorter 24" lens wing camera pods, but all other equipment was as fitted to the standard PRXI. Classed as a prototype, PL839 had a large yellow ringed 'P' aft of its roundels, and the spinner was painted yellow, denoting its trainer role in life.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img924/5596/M3Tfze.jpg)
Although never fulfilling the original intention planned for it, PL839 did prove to be a workable idea, but no further PRXI(T)s were built, but the work carried out at Benson, and by the Design Office, later proved very useful as Supermarine built a number of trainer Spitfires post war, and similar conversions are still being carried out to this day.
====================================
I've yet to add the various stencils and the serial as the KP decals just fell apart, but luckily I'd scanned them already and have printed out a copy sheet that I'll apply later on.
:thumbsup:
Simple but looks so good! :thumbsup:
Looks good Kit :thumbsup:
Looks good and reads well.
Yup, looks good, Kit! :thumbsup:
Great finish, pretty quick too!
Colin
It fought me all the way, SO many tiny parts, some still not there, and won't be either, but it looks as I imagined it to start with.
I wish my Dad could have seen it. He'd have said something like 'Good idea boy'. ;D
Very nice Kit :mellow:
Like the story - and the model looks really good, well worth the frustration! :thumbsup:
The story has a certain factual background in history. ;D
The accident and weather conditions did happen at St. Eval, but I don't think it was PL839, they just happened to be the serials that were available. Until they fell apart anyway. :banghead:
Quite what they did with the RW wreckage I don't know though.
She's a beauty! :wub: :thumbsup:
Great work mate 👍 👏