What if

Picture Post => Current and Finished Projects => Armour => Topic started by: buzzbomb on February 14, 2023, 02:18:55 AM

Title: Centurion AA (Rapier) - Done
Post by: buzzbomb on February 14, 2023, 02:18:55 AM
So, whilst procrastinating on putting decals on a new build (AFV Club Churchill NA75 Conversion) I somehow got to thinking about what to do next.
Going through the boxes of halfies (half finished/started/destroyed/lost) I spied this
The venerable Tamiya/Academy Centurion Mk 3 kit from mid last century. Very very average kit and rather delapitated
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4emqzsrl2xgnkh31n8fqh/CentRapier_1.JPG?rlkey=mgc25ronbdn06iofupbrkuc43&raw=1)

I think the guy I got this off was thinking of doing an Aussie Cent at some stage so hacked off the guards for some reason. These had to be put back first
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fxr9knkw7zwm31ngkduhj/CentRapier_2.JPG?rlkey=v893o2ed19iwtc08r30vyko9c&raw=1)

Then in a moment of lertness... a bit of inspiration, what about the first attempt to get the Rapier Anti aircraft Missile on a mobile mount. On an older chassis but still able to hack with the tanks. The dates of the Centurion and the Rapier development sort of align somewhat
Mock up of the turret is now underway to see if it will work. It turns out that a 1/72 Soviet AS11 Kilter Anti Ship Missile is near as dammit to a 1/35 Rapier in look and length, good enough for this stage anyway
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tofh83xm9d64ows2pc81p/CentRapier_3.JPG?rlkey=gjwwnxlabub8yol6fsrk9zl41&raw=1)

I am thinking Armoured boxes for the missiles, pretty much the same as the Real Tracked Rapier on the M548 TLC, with earlier ground mount type tracking gear or close proximity. Probably only go for 4 missiles in ready rack though.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: zenrat on February 14, 2023, 02:53:00 AM
 :thumbsup:

<popcorn>
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: rickshaw on February 14, 2023, 03:06:51 AM
Interesting   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: NARSES2 on February 14, 2023, 05:57:07 AM
I must admit my first thoughts for a Centurion AA would be a Centurion hull with a twin 40mm Bofors turret, so this to put it mildly intrigues me as I've no idea what it would look like . Really looking forward to it  :thumbsup:

And given UK MOD budget cuts I can actually see them using Tamiya tape (or a cheaper £1 shop option) to attach the missiles to their rails  :angel:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Old Wombat on February 14, 2023, 06:41:47 AM
I dunno, BT, the Cent looks fairly good for the era. Maybe a bit Sheesh! :-\ compared to modern kits but good for its day.

Just because I needed a reference to the system, I present ...

The M548 TLC Rapier;

(prototype)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/24/Rapier_mounted_on_the_M548.jpg)

(https://i2.cdn.turner.com/money/dam/assets/140616123945-tank-auction-tracked-rapier-1024x576.png)

(https://www.net-maquettes.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/RCM748-Tracked-Rapier-00001.jpg)

(https://weaponsparade.com/wp-content/uploads/spaam-gb-TRACKED-RAPIERRapier-missile-7.jpg)

(https://preview.redd.it/57rumg7ikd021.jpg?width=900&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=6c38d326ab986a0a36b2d86969ef12013e3bc7f7)


So, sort of a 1/2 to 3/4 box structure with 2 Rapiers per side.

The tracking radar doesn't look that difficult to scratch up.

The search radar (not represented here ;) ) could be mounted on a M113/M548/another Cent hull.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Weaver on February 14, 2023, 10:37:49 AM
There was actually a scheme to put four Tigercats (land-based Seacat: identical missile) on an armoured turret on a Centurion chassis, so this would be a natural evolution of that project.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Gondor on February 14, 2023, 10:41:33 AM
Rapier started as a towed item with four missiles, the tracked version came later.

Gondor
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: rickshaw on February 14, 2023, 07:52:16 PM
Quote from: Old Wombat on February 14, 2023, 06:41:47 AMSo, sort of a 1/2 to 3/4 box structure with 2 Rapiers per side.

The tracking radar doesn't look that difficult to scratch up.

The search radar (not represented here ;) ) could be mounted on a M113/M548/another Cent hull.

Actually, the Rapier mounted a search radar on the mount.  It was the drum fixture between the missiles. The antenna in the middle was a transmitting dish for the control commands to the missile after launch.  The Blindfire system which was often co-sited with the launchers in a towed system, was the tracking radar for use in bad weather/night time engagements.  In typical British style they went about the design, arse about face and placed a search radar on the normal mounting but decided to make the system only visual engagements only. :banghead:

I have an amusing story about the Australian Army's adoption of the Rapier.  It was sent to Melbourne by ship and then loaded onboard a train and dispatched to Adelaide where the 16 Air Defence Regt. was stationed.  The Supply battalion was advised that the top-secret shipment was on it's way.  Anyway, it didn't arrive.  Oh, dear, anyway, a senior WO who I knew decided to go for a walk along the railway siding beside the depot where a train had been parked for a week, where anybody could access it.  Guess what he discovered?  All the Rapier fire units stacked neatly in containers.  Oh, dear, a huge kerfuffle resulted with MPs all over the place, police, everything.  Very red faced, pointed questions were asked of the railways why no one had been advised of the train's arrival and everything.  They quickly unloaded them and shuffled them into a warehouse until the Air Defence Regiment could send sufficient vehicles to pick them up. :banghead:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Wardukw on February 14, 2023, 09:44:13 PM
Must be something in the water at the moment..I just started a missile armed tracked vehicle using a Leo1 chassis.
I like the Rapier system ..it looks pretty menacing with those 8 missiles pointed at the skies and I have that old as hell Tamiya Centurion kit to which is another thing I like so this build is knocking on all the right doors  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Weaver on February 15, 2023, 04:08:11 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on February 14, 2023, 07:52:16 PM
Quote from: Old Wombat on February 14, 2023, 06:41:47 AMSo, sort of a 1/2 to 3/4 box structure with 2 Rapiers per side.

The tracking radar doesn't look that difficult to scratch up.

The search radar (not represented here ;) ) could be mounted on a M113/M548/another Cent hull.

Actually, the Rapier mounted a search radar on the mount.  It was the drum fixture between the missiles. The antenna in the middle was a transmitting dish for the control commands to the missile after launch.  The Blindfire system which was often co-sited with the launchers in a towed system, was the tracking radar for use in bad weather/night time engagements.  In typical British style they went about the design, arse about face and placed a search radar on the normal mounting but decided to make the system only visual engagements only. :banghead:


Just for context, the British Army originally wanted a much more sophisticated system called PT.428, but development costs inevitably rose and it was cancelled. They then selected the US Mauler system, but that ran into technical difficulties and was cancelled too. Rapier, the "cheap & quick" backup for PT.428, now came to the fore. At the time, the UK armed forces were very concerned with rapidly reinforcing overseas bases by air (Scorpion et al date from this time too), so part of the spec was that the whole system had to be mounted on ONE Landrover+trailer combo. That's why the radar is on the launcher (the trailer) and the target tracker is a light, man-portable optical unit that can be carried in the back of the Landy. The Blindfire all-weather tracking radar was a "nice-to-have" extra that could be sent on a subsequent flight if needed after the basic system had been sen t and set up as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: PR19_Kit on February 15, 2023, 05:00:34 AM
Could I have seen one of those tracked Rapier thingies at RAF Brugen in the middle-late 80s?

When I visited my No. 2 daughter there (Did you know she............Oh, you've heard it before, OK.........) we went on a tour of the airfield, and amongst a few camo'd and obviously derelict Phantoms hidden in the woods there were a couple of vehicles that looked very like those tracks, but she wouldn't let me anywhere near them.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Gondor on February 15, 2023, 05:11:07 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on February 15, 2023, 05:00:34 AMCould I have seen one of those tracked Rapier thingies at RAF Brugen in the middle-late 80s?

When I visited my No. 2 daughter there (Did you know she............Oh, you've heard it before, OK.........) we went on a tour of the airfield, and amongst a few camo'd and obviously derelict Phantoms hidden in the woods there were a couple of vehicles that looked very like those tracks, but she wouldn't let me anywhere near them.

Yes you could have as there were regular flights duering the summer to the Outer Hebrides duering the 80's when I was there. They were going to the live fireing range on South Uist. The RAF accommodation for single people was very close to the airport so getting sleep after a night shift when the Hercules flew in/out was a slight problem at times.

Gondor
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Steel Penguin on February 15, 2023, 10:19:18 AM
if you can get any shots from the BAc Filton open days in the late 70s/ early 80s  they used to have one of the vehicles parked between the Babazon hanger and the BAWA club, and on the hour they used to set of a wire riding dummy,  to the oohs and ahhs oh all the kids in attendance, 
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Weaver on February 16, 2023, 01:38:10 PM
Quote from: Steel Penguin on February 15, 2023, 10:19:18 AMif you can get any shots from the BAc Filton open days in the late 70s/ early 80s  they used to have one of the vehicles parked between the Babazon hanger and the BAWA club, and on the hour they used to set of a wire riding dummy,  to the oohs and ahhs oh all the kids in attendance, 

I remember standing at the BAC Dynamics outdoor display at one Farnborough air show where they had an operational Rapier unit with dummy missiles, a good operator and a big TV hooked up to the sighting unit. It was notable that the operator was keeping the crosswires on the aircraft doing aerobatics displays for, I'd estimate, over 80% of the time.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: PR19_Kit on February 16, 2023, 03:54:35 PM
My ex-brother-in-law (work that out....) was on a Rapier unit in the Falklands and reckoned that they could have nailed quite few more AAF aircraft if they hadn't been sited in silly positions. The AAF strikes came in round the hills below the peaks and by the time they were in sight it was very difficult to track and lock on to them.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: rickshaw on February 16, 2023, 08:24:24 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on February 16, 2023, 03:54:35 PMMy ex-brother-in-law (work that out....) was on a Rapier unit in the Falklands and reckoned that they could have nailed quite few more AAF aircraft if they hadn't been sited in silly positions. The AAF strikes came in round the hills below the peaks and by the time they were in sight it was very difficult to track and lock on to them.

I always understood the reason why Rapier wasn't deployed to the Falklands was because their gyros tumbled on the journey south...
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: zenrat on February 16, 2023, 09:54:50 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on February 16, 2023, 03:54:35 PMMy ex-brother-in-law (work that out....)...

Mrs z's eldest brother is on wife No.4 so I have three ex-sisters-in-law... :unsure:

<edit - corrected my incorrect pluralisation of sister-in-law.>
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Devilfish on February 16, 2023, 10:23:28 PM
Quote from: zenrat on February 16, 2023, 09:54:50 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on February 16, 2023, 03:54:35 PMMy ex-brother-in-law (work that out....)...

Mrs z's eldest brother is on wife No.4 so I have three ex-sister-in-laws... :unsure:

My ex- sister in law (my sisters ex husband's sister) is an old school friend of mine (and we had a "thing"), so that was a complicated one to explain to my wife... :rolleyes:  :unsure:

Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: PR19_Kit on February 17, 2023, 01:51:31 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on February 16, 2023, 08:24:24 PMI always understood the reason why Rapier wasn't deployed to the Falklands was because their gyros tumbled on the journey south...


 ;D

Apparently there were no spares or support equipment available as they'd been shipped aboard the Atlantic Conveyer.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Weaver on February 17, 2023, 10:28:42 PM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on February 17, 2023, 01:51:31 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on February 16, 2023, 08:24:24 PMI always understood the reason why Rapier wasn't deployed to the Falklands was because their gyros tumbled on the journey south...


 ;D

Apparently there were no spares or support equipment available as they'd been shipped aboard the Atlantic Conveyer.

Also, the launchers were shipped south as deck cargo, despite the fact that the electronics were already well know to be a bit on the fragile side.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: buzzbomb on February 18, 2023, 03:04:59 AM
Good discussion on the actual use of the Rapier in the Falklands. Tallies with what I have read about the less than ideal siting and the further impact of the loss of the Atlantic Conveyor


Thanks for the interest in this build though.

Been a bit hot and putrid for much shop work, nonetheless a bit has been achieved.

tinkering around with the Turret shape
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/gtn1ea7p0gm9mbdxmxzim/CentRapier_4.JPG?rlkey=6xgjje49urz6t3l2rw0qfonxy&raw=1)

So turret pretty much sorted out at a basic level, then the Missile mounts.
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4b3i13bb71gab9bg933w5/CentRapier_5.JPG?rlkey=q515ebwrbyg514qnpn2kobqoa&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ko985jkazr8b4n0xsnkrx/CentRapier_6.JPG?rlkey=p24of7ohzz57we88lxlqprjb7&raw=1)

My practical whiffer vehicle voice in the head says, the missile boxes should be fully enclosed at the sides to offer protection for the missiles in the field.
However, the other voice is saying, then you cannot see they are Rapier missiles and loses a bit of kazing! factor.
Mr Middle ground is offering up sides off and use guard rails. Of course Mr Middle ground always presents the most challenging way forward.

let see who wins ;)
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: NARSES2 on February 18, 2023, 03:23:35 AM
Some really nice work going on here  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Old Wombat on February 18, 2023, 03:43:02 AM
Big turret for a relatively small missile. ???

You could always have one coming out of the launcher. ;)
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: zenrat on February 18, 2023, 03:47:58 AM
Or, enclosed sides but with inspection/loading hatches which you pose open on one side?
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Wardukw on February 18, 2023, 10:14:54 AM
Quote from: zenrat on February 18, 2023, 03:47:58 AMOr, enclosed sides but with inspection/loading hatches which you pose open on one side?

Exactly what I was thinking too..then ya get the best of both worlds..covered so its looks right and uncovered so you can see the missiles  :thumbsup:
Love the work so far mate and turret size could be explained with all the electronics needed like a built in targeting system and fire control systems.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Weaver on February 18, 2023, 11:14:55 AM
Honestly, I wouldn't worry too much about exposed missiles. The armoured boxes on Tracked Rapier were the exception, not the rule. If you look at Crotale, Roland, Chapparal, SA-8 etc, they all either have their missiles in unarmoured fibreglass tubes or on open rails.

Quote from: Old Wombat on February 18, 2023, 03:43:02 AMBig turret for a relatively small missile. ???

The proposed Tigercat turret was pretty hefty (see below). Tank-based SPAAG/M turrets are generally pretty big because the designers usually want to put all the computers in the turret with the radars, rather than trying to connect them via slip rings.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52695977387_9fe7dde5f3_c.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: buzzbomb on February 18, 2023, 01:47:38 PM
Quote from: Weaver on February 18, 2023, 11:14:55 AMThe proposed Tigercat turret was pretty hefty (see below). Tank-based SPAAG/M turrets are generally pretty big because the designers usually want to put all the computers in the turret with the radars, rather than trying to connect them via slip rings.

Funny you said that. Co-incidentally, Tigercats were in my original thought bubble, along with a land based version of the Redtop to stay homegrown British. With the kit of the 1/35 Seadart available, it too was briefly considered but written out as too big (and expensive for a build like this) plus timelines were a bit out. Great drawing you dug out.

As you say, my thoughts are that the turret would contain all the fire control and launch gubbins, plus crew. I might be a tad tall though depending where the missile launch racks go, it might get a trim down. That would be relatively easy.

thanks for the feedback.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Weaver on February 18, 2023, 02:34:30 PM
Quote from: buzzbomb on February 18, 2023, 01:47:38 PM
Quote from: Weaver on February 18, 2023, 11:14:55 AMThe proposed Tigercat turret was pretty hefty (see below). Tank-based SPAAG/M turrets are generally pretty big because the designers usually want to put all the computers in the turret with the radars, rather than trying to connect them via slip rings.

Funny you said that. Co-incidentally, Tigercats were in my original thought bubble, along with a land based version of the Redtop to stay homegrown British. With the kit of the 1/35 Seadart available, it too was briefly considered but written out as too big (and expensive for a build like this) plus timelines were a bit out. Great drawing you dug out.

As you say, my thoughts are that the turret would contain all the fire control and launch gubbins, plus crew. I might be a tad tall though depending where the missile launch racks go, it might get a trim down. That would be relatively easy.

thanks for the feedback.

I think the height of the turret is fine: compare the different between a Leo 1 and a Gepard to see what I mean. If I had to critique your turret, I'd say the piece that you're using for the radar dome is a bit on the small side: it should be pretty much the whole width of your roof.

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-FPUcPieuHTQ%2FUkNqSnBbg1I%2FAAAAAAAAB-4%2FlMq8-lCMfs4%2Fs1600%2FGepard%2Bdraw.jpg&hash=2faa11c074679746bad9a44ab8c98c3f8b3466d4)(https://media.alldrawings.ru/media_autogenerated/original/old/blue/Tanks/Leopard_1.png)


If you want to see a REALLY tall boi, check out the Marconi Marksman turret on a Chieftain chassis:

(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51241415832_9bbe58530b_b.jpg)(https://s1.1zoom.me/big0/970/Tanks_Chieftain_Tankfest_436835.jpg)
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Gondor on February 19, 2023, 04:17:43 AM
There are a couple of options for Rapiers in 1/35. David J Parkins does a towed Rapier set in their Firing Line range, £85 and change though. Hobby Fan have done a Tracked Rapier kit back in 2017 so you might be able to find that but probably at a price. Another option would be to fit Hawk Missiles instead as they should be available as AFV Club did them as well.

Gondor
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: NARSES2 on February 19, 2023, 05:31:51 AM
That Marksman Chieftain looks very sci-fi, almost a robot thingy. Paint an eye on the radar dish and voila, almost sentient.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Wardukw on February 19, 2023, 10:35:45 AM
That's why I brought that Tamiya Gepard Chris cause I'm going to build my own version of the Marksman turret and you can't do that without the guns  ;D
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Captain Canada on February 19, 2023, 02:21:02 PM
Very cool. The Centurion is probably my favourite tank !
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: buzzbomb on February 24, 2023, 02:36:17 AM
Progress.
More turret work and running gear. First up, there are a few bits missing, like one road wheel and the idler axles. Should be able to sort that out.
The original tracks are long gone and it appears that AFV Club rubber jobbies are a bit long, again, sort outable.

This is about it for the Turret and missile mounts, sans the scrub guards around the missiles. Procrastinating on that.
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/fo6ohnzczkdoz8lssg88y/CentRapier_7.JPG?rlkey=cmnw57dyutljdnh1oet6y44p2&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/x7i7ev4yzenvc9rnrs0dy/CentRapier_8.JPG?rlkey=rdpd61clpomb44ngrgagbzw5y&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/3xqe24nveb9q4k2pqb5ag/CentRapier_9.JPG?rlkey=3lv8eywrzkksi6adn4vhocgth&raw=1%5DMissile%20mounts%20do%20rotate.%20Front%20Radar,%20not%20so%20much%5Bimghttps://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/bvzxt654sn0lp7dte6qit/CentRapier_10.JPG?rlkey=kshdzs4g1grmwjy099cet9d2p&raw=1)
Turret top details.
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/togjxeusdbmt7hjuiqudy/CentRapier_11.JPG?rlkey=lcsyv57kzcrculelrbr41dbzi&raw=1)

Couple more sessions and should be paint shop time.
Thanks for your interest
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: NARSES2 on February 24, 2023, 03:22:34 AM
This is going to be some build  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: PR19_Kit on February 24, 2023, 03:52:20 AM
That's pretty darned impressive.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Old Wombat on February 24, 2023, 03:52:48 AM
Moving along nicely, BT! :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Gondor on February 24, 2023, 04:53:45 AM
It would be ironic if you fitted a machine gun for self defence in an AA mount  :rolleyes:

Looks great though. The missile rails are nice and high up the turret so that the lowest missiles will not get in the way if they have to rotate almost vertically  :thumbsup:

Gondor
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Weaver on February 24, 2023, 05:57:06 AM
Quote from: Gondor on February 24, 2023, 04:53:45 AMIt would be ironic if you fitted a machine gun for self defence in an AA mount  :rolleyes:

Looks great though. The missile rails are nice and high up the turret so that the lowest missiles will not get in the way if they have to rotate almost vertically  :thumbsup:

Gondor

Russian SA-8 Gecko SAM systems were fitted with retrofitted with MGs over the commander's hatch IIRC.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Wardukw on February 24, 2023, 11:32:00 AM
Coming along superbly Buzz man ...looks freakin cool and I'm thinking it's gonna look even better with paint  ;D
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: kerick on February 24, 2023, 03:00:16 PM
Awesome job! Yes, a brush guard around the missiles would look good. Don't want a multi million dollar missile taken out by a tree branch. You could replace one missile with an anti tank missile like a Hellfire or even a Maverick. Just my $0.02.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: rickshaw on February 25, 2023, 02:48:01 AM
Quote from: kerick on February 24, 2023, 03:00:16 PMAwesome job! Yes, a brush guard around the missiles would look good. Don't want a multi million dollar missile taken out by a tree branch. You could replace one missile with an anti tank missile like a Hellfire or even a Maverick. Just my $0.02.

Wouldn't work.  The two missiles use completely different guidance methods.  Now, a Swingfire would work well with a Rapier system 'cause they both use a Semi-automatic command to line of sight (SACLOS) system (if he is using a Tracked Rapier as a basis).  The SACLOS was adapted from the Swingfire system.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Weaver on February 25, 2023, 03:38:14 AM
Quote from: rickshaw on February 25, 2023, 02:48:01 AM
Quote from: kerick on February 24, 2023, 03:00:16 PMAwesome job! Yes, a brush guard around the missiles would look good. Don't want a multi million dollar missile taken out by a tree branch. You could replace one missile with an anti tank missile like a Hellfire or even a Maverick. Just my $0.02.

Wouldn't work.  The two missiles use completely different guidance methods.  Now, a Swingfire would work well with a Rapier system 'cause they both use a Semi-automatic command to line of sight (SACLOS) system (if he is using a Tracked Rapier as a basis).  The SACLOS was adapted from the Swingfire system.

Alternatively, the proposed but never-built Sabre missile was an air-to-ground weapon based on a Rapier airframe with a bulged nose for a bigger warhead. Sabre had semi-active laser guidance, but I don't see why you couldn't make a SACLOS version to give Rapier launchers an emergency anti-tank capability. Might make more sense as one round on a eight-round launcher than one in four though.

The only Sabre missile models I know of are in 1/72nd, offered by Freightdog as part of a Hawk conversion, but it wouldn't be hard to make one: it's just a fatter tube and nosecone on the front end of a Rapier body.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Old Wombat on February 25, 2023, 04:59:36 AM
If your AAA is mixing it with enemy armour, something has gone terribly wrong & their best bet is to bug out, fast!
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Steel Penguin on February 25, 2023, 05:18:24 AM
Rapier had AT as a secondary aspect, the BAc house paper from Filton had pics where it was undergoing trials as part of the ADAT competition in the US ( if i remember correctly this was late 80s early 90s i think)   wile it was (only) a trial Saracen APC that it was targeted at, it certainly caused a fair amount of damage.
The proposal was the standard Tracked rapier carrier with one or two .50 MGs for ant infantry work,  with the carrier vehicle being based from the M113 load carrier the US already had the spares in house.  Never went any where as far as i remember.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Weaver on February 25, 2023, 09:10:12 PM
Quote from: Old Wombat on February 25, 2023, 04:59:36 AMIf your AAA is mixing it with enemy armour, something has gone terribly wrong & their best bet is to bug out, fast!

SPSAMs and SPAAGs are armoured because they're expected to operate near the front line, which means that the chance of things going terribly wrong is in their top six possible outcomes per day they spend there. Also bugging out is not always an option: sometimes the big-picture priority is to hold out with whatever you've got to hand at any cost.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Old Wombat on February 25, 2023, 10:02:49 PM
Yes, but they're not armoured enough to go mixing it with IFV's, let alone tanks.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: buzzbomb on March 03, 2023, 02:35:51 AM
The end is nigh !

Side plates and Brush guards pretty much done. Maybe. If it annoys me enough a couple more horizontal bars might be added.
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/7i4f999ifn9lw16dlcymk/CentRapier_12.JPG?rlkey=y9r7tmmazi4m9zmmv8cijd7i6&raw=1)
Added in the smoke launchers and a few other bits and gubbins
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/tc1e0samg85cqxihe4rge/CentRapier_13.JPG?rlkey=evio40u9ck84frz3pmtk3xp82&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/e35qsj1v9nex6j7uart0j/CentRapier_14.JPG?rlkey=rvtr0ikh81fogp52aqtgvbult&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5foccandyhrp8noqykedp/CentRapier_15.JPG?rlkey=g0iuzyp47bejijmzqn3herp03&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/vsyam4z272awg3dxplfbb/CentRapier_16.JPG?rlkey=1alwoapmr3rqkkb2n7zehxqls&raw=1)

Wheel solution, a couple of AFV Club spare wheels and some grandt line bolts. Mostly hidden by the side plates, so the clear differences will not be that apparent.
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/p2urt3mgguowbbv7ia4qd/CentRapier_17.JPG?rlkey=zxvqktqcofaq4605lrflxjzxu&raw=1)

Can only find two Kilters, so a couple of "Rapiers" short. Although I am sure I have a Fencer with more in my still packed up models in storage, so may need a raid there in the near future.
Be away from the bench for a week, so paint shop after next week.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Old Wombat on March 03, 2023, 03:03:06 AM
 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: zenrat on March 03, 2023, 03:03:56 AM
Nice.  A little bit more subtle than DUKWys Leo SPAAM.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Old Wombat on March 03, 2023, 03:05:49 AM
Yeah, but Phill's missiles will reach out Beyond Visual Range & into Low Earth Orbit! ;D  ;D  ;D  ;)
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 03, 2023, 04:59:22 AM
That looks MOST impressive.  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Wardukw on March 03, 2023, 05:35:40 PM
Hahahaha I'm am so glad you guys have joined my thoughts on this bloody thing .  ;D  ;D

Buzzy man that's looking great ..very cool  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Rick Lowe on March 03, 2023, 06:02:51 PM
Looking good!  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Gondor on March 04, 2023, 06:02:43 AM
You might want to move your smoke launchers and the fence below them so that the Rapiers can be launched at a shallow angle which would be possible if they are on a hill side and aircraft are flying through a valley below them. Otherwise, it's looking great  :thumbsup:

Gondor
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: buzzbomb on March 13, 2023, 01:33:00 AM
Quote from: Gondor on March 04, 2023, 06:02:43 AMYou might want to move your smoke launchers and the fence below them so that the Rapiers can be launched at a shallow angle which would be possible if they are on a hill side and aircraft are flying through a valley below them. Otherwise, it's looking great  :thumbsup:
Gondor
There was a thought on that line of thinking, but it did not happen. Perhaps the Mk II version rectified that Operational design flaw :lol:

But nonetheless we are back. Nice week away in hot and humid Cairns, but also 5 hours at the Australian Armour and Artillery museum  :D :D

So today a full session back at the desk on the Centurion

First up a very quick primer coat to look for and indeed find issues
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/4qx9e22k05zw62zuu435z/CentRapier_18.JPG?rlkey=gnklse98ouxpan30nhxh63bbw&dl=0)

So then to Colour scheme. Started with a primer version of Bronze Green. With the early 70's time frame, it did not really fit that well.
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/vmv0b9z7493s8k2tvh2xl/CentRapier_19.JPG?rlkey=ey6pd2if6su5ztberwnxfui1d&raw=1)

So to NATO Green and Black. Missile fitted to check colour contrast. I think it needs to be bit greener. Fixed in the next release
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/oysgmlfo47jc451ebyw88/CentRapier_20.JPG?rlkey=5qccl9j25rvrs6ec2y991lb2c&raw=1)

A couple more images before we get some decals, detail painting and weathering underway
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yq679dc04fpuioboss3ud/CentRapier_21.JPG?rlkey=8iezrwhdrmqhinyhwkk5ac74a&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/yq679dc04fpuioboss3ud/CentRapier_22.JPG?rlkey=8iezrwhdrmqhinyhwkk5ac74a&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/15u31h7k2zj9hb9kd5ab1/CentRapier_23.JPG?rlkey=9l92dt08rl02maaavqiz7xh7j&raw=1)

Certainly on the downhill slide now
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Wardukw on March 13, 2023, 01:56:04 AM
Excellent..excellent..this is great mate...the finished machine gonna look good man  ;D
Extremely jealous of ya to right now dude . ...I watch that museums channel on YouTube and I enjoy every second of it ..a place I would love to visit I can tell ya matey  ;D
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: NARSES2 on March 13, 2023, 03:40:00 AM
Looking very nice  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Old Wombat on March 13, 2023, 07:04:33 AM
Nice effect with the heat rust on the exhaust cover & the camo works nicely.

Rapiers do seem to have come in a range of greens over the years;

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Rapier_Missile.JPG)

(https://c8.alamy.com/comp/KJ842M/rapier-missile-launcher-duxford-uk-the-rapier-was-an-anti-aircraft-KJ842M.jpg)

(https://www.army.mod.uk/media/5138/45146944.jpg?anchor=center&mode=crop&width=600&height=500&rnd=132467365740000000)

Australian ones, too:

(https://artilleryhistory.org/artillery_register/nsw/photos_nsw/gun_manly_rapier_surface_to_air_missile_system.jpg)

(https://adbr.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/JPAU22JUL04DH048.png)

Nick Moran (a.k.a. The Chieftain) posted an Unofficial High-Speed Tour of the Australian Armour and Artillery Museum about a month ago - made me want to go & check it out.

Now all I need is the time & the money! :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: rickshaw on March 13, 2023, 10:32:31 PM
I was wondering why there wasn't room for reloads in the turret bustle?  A standard Green was how the missiles were usually painted.  The launcher would be camouflaged in what ever colours the service using them was in.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: buzzbomb on March 17, 2023, 03:54:55 AM
Almost there..Paint and decals done and started the weathering,  but the photos have shown up some howlers, like tide marks. These will have to be fixed.
Perhaps it does not look so bad on the model, but the camera lens does not have rose coloured glasses on ;)

So a few images anyway with where we are at... bloopers and all
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ezg37a4wmia82aganno84/CentRapier_24.JPG?rlkey=1ab9t6lildhoez1qk9xbr1u8a&raw=1)

As a nod to the Crusader AA tank, I used the Skyraker decal
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/vv7xabanpymhg5wxy2jmy/CentRapier_25.JPG?rlkey=k1vugnqtn0bo3opx7tx6nd6n8&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/qgo50wd1117gpo5414rfi/CentRapier_26.JPG?rlkey=ijlz1419i5vyjxl8s404n0aan&raw=1)
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Old Wombat on March 17, 2023, 04:04:28 AM
I wouldn't call them "bloopers", more "minor glitches". ;)

Looks very good, BT. Very good indeed! :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: NARSES2 on March 17, 2023, 06:54:55 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on March 17, 2023, 04:04:28 AMLooks very good, BT. Very good indeed! :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

It does indeed  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Rheged on March 17, 2023, 08:38:13 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on March 17, 2023, 04:04:28 AMI wouldn't call them "bloopers", more "minor glitches". ;)

Looks very good, BT. Very good indeed! :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:

I agree with my antipodean colleague............very good indeed.
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: Wardukw on March 17, 2023, 11:55:39 AM
This is bloody good Buzzy ...great stuff mate and bloopers ??
All I see is wear and tear  ;D  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier)
Post by: buzzbomb on March 18, 2023, 02:34:57 AM
Ok happier now :D

Quick resquirt of paint over some problematic bits,  whip out the weathering oils and now calling this done

(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/udjio6dw8yx13v21ccg89/CentRapier_28.JPG?rlkey=c6m21o68l4swl00rr51ugcl3h&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/asitm8c3q8u8upadmeydr/CentRapier_29.JPG?rlkey=8bt4r0pgvm39dh23q94ru80tq&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/0mx2p04g5uze8fn4o5ko5/CentRapier_30.JPG?rlkey=8866itipb3px6mnn0qnxy0p4y&raw=1)
(https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/d3l1qd1td0galnkvualbq/CentRapier_31.JPG?rlkey=98dbpk1rvcdglajb9bq1urz7o&raw=1)
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier) - Done
Post by: Steel Penguin on March 18, 2023, 02:39:09 AM
fine looking machine there buzzbomb  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier) - Done
Post by: zenrat on March 18, 2023, 03:40:14 AM
Good job Buzzo

 :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier) - Done
Post by: Old Wombat on March 18, 2023, 05:13:24 AM
OK, I can see where you've cleaned some stuff up but I still don't think it looked that bad. ;)

What I said earlier still holds true. :mellow:  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier) - Done
Post by: NARSES2 on March 18, 2023, 06:39:35 AM
A terrific piece of work  :thumbsup:  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier) - Done
Post by: Wardukw on March 18, 2023, 11:35:11 AM
Yup same as I said above..great build Buzzy mate  ;D  :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Centurion AA (Rapier) - Done
Post by: Rick Lowe on March 19, 2023, 09:52:36 PM
 :thumbsup:  :thumbsup: