Anybody got any ideas for whiffing an Oliver Hazard Perry class frigate? I've got a 1/350 scale Academy kit at home, but I don't know whether I am going to keep it and whif it into something else.........or just sell it/give it away.
I mean, I like doing bigger ship projects like battleships for example. The Perry class just seems so small with not much whiffing potential to add other weapon systems and such.
One interesting question is what would you do if you were a smaller nation and the US gifted you a Perry?
The next questions are when, and in what condition? If it's the mid-'90s, you might get one with it's Mk.13 launcher intact, but if it's much later then they were all deactivated/removed, so what do you do then?
Assuming I'd got a de-acc, and I was Western-oriented in my buying choices, then what occurs to me is:
1. Move the 76mm from it's awful position amidships to a new, one-deck high deckhouse in front of the bridge.
2. Fit 16 x Israeli Barak VL SAMs in the position vacated by the 76mm, with two Barak radars replacing both the Mk.92 "egg" and the STIR. I think I'm right in saying that the Barak radar can do gun-control too.
3. Either keep the Phalanx if it's supplied, or fit an alternative CIWS if it isn't. Alternatively, the aft Barak radar could replace the Phalanx, and extra SSMs could be fitted in place of the STIR mast.
Other things to think about:
Australia and Turkey found room for an 8-cell Mk.41 VLS forward of the Mk.13, which they used to carry 32 x ESSM.
Taiwanese ships have two 40mm Bofors guns fitted on the midships platforms and eight Taiwanese SSMs fitted in container launchers between the masts. According to some sources though, the Taiwanese ships are two feet wider in the beam.
Nine USN ships were fitted with a 25mm RWS on a platform in place of the Mk.13. The USN also did a study into fitting a RAM launcher in this position, but didn't proceed with it.
Here's some pics of a gorgeous 1/72nd cutaway model of a post-upgrade Aussie Perry. They had to find quite a bit of space for that VLS!
Note that the cut line is NOT down the centre of the ship, it's about 1/3rd of the way across the beam.
Model by Cutting Edge Models, link here: https://www.ce-models.com.au/pages/maritime/thales_title.html
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51778457684_608dff3c64_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mTu8x3)thales_ffg_2 (https://flic.kr/p/2mTu8x3) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51777815111_1aa4fc759e_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mTqQwc)thales_ffg_3 (https://flic.kr/p/2mTqQwc) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51776996572_aafb5dcae1_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mTmDcs)thales_ffg_5 (https://flic.kr/p/2mTmDcs) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51778702290_97d3460cca_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mTvofo)thales_ffg_6 (https://flic.kr/p/2mTvofo) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51778059998_3b36734d6d_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mTs6jo)thales_ffg_8 (https://flic.kr/p/2mTs6jo) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51777815151_9dd8438fbe_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mTqQwT)thales_ffg_1 (https://flic.kr/p/2mTqQwT) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51777815146_2dc9346363_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mTqQwN)thales_ffg_9 (https://flic.kr/p/2mTqQwN) by Harold Smith (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156465715@N04/), on Flickr
It always comes down to the proposed role; ASubW, AAirW, Coastal Patrol/Coast Guard, etc.
Do you need 2 x SH/MH-60's or could you do the job with something smaller, or fewer, or both, or with none at all? Reducing the volume & mass of the helicopters gives you more to play with for other roles, beyond ASubW.
Then, again, they're old ships & hard-worked. So, they'd need a complete rebuild to be a viable combat ship. Therefore, how about something like your Arleigh-Burke mod's on the Iowa-class miniaturised for the OHP?
Or (here's me going a bit off the rails) armed to the teeth with (from fore to aft);
ASubW VLS;
new gun system (Otobreda 127/54 Compact, 100 mm modèle 68, 4.5-inch Mk 8 or 5"/54 caliber Mark 45 gun?);
RIM-116;
Nulka;
Mk 38 Mod 2 Naval Gun Systems;
Goalkeeper CIWS (?); &
ASur/AirW VLS
Well, if you do not want to change much, it could become a Norwegian coastal patrol ship with an interesting splinter scheme, made populat by the Skjold Class corvettes:
(https://www.seaforces.org/marint/Norwegian-Navy/Corvette/P-960_DAT/P960-Skjold-12.jpg)
Just an idea, though.
The OHP Perry were small ships designed to be built quickly and cheaply. When I visited one in Darwin harbour in 2001 I was struck by how small the ship was, very narrow. If your nation is given one as a gift there isn't all that much room for improvements. Not much room at all.
Quote from: rickshaw on December 27, 2021, 02:32:11 AM
The OHP Perry were small ships designed to be built quickly and cheaply. When I visited one in Darwin harbour in 2001 I was struck by how small the ship was, very narrow. If your nation is given one as a gift there isn't all that much room for improvements. Not much room at all.
No weight margin for additions either (sub-40 tons). You CAN improve/change them (it's been done) but you have to take something off for everything you add.
The other reason that it's hard to
improve (as opposed to just change out of neccessity) is that it's actually a really well-balanced design, given the goals of cheapness and mass production. How many other affordable, 1970s, sub-4000 ton frigates have both a credible ASW capability AND and a credible (if minimal) area-air-defence capability? That's why it sold so well. The price you pay is lack of NGS capability, no ASROCs, poor 76mm arcs and single-shaft propulsion, but if those things either don't matter to you and/or you can't afford them to matter, then it was a damned good choice. If Standard SM-1MR was still produced and supported it would continue to be a good choice until the hulls literally fell apart.
As an alternative to all the high-tech, high-cost rebuilds, how about a cheap-as-chips one? You get gifted a Perry hull with ZERO weapons and sensors, you've got a low budget and a limited requirement, so you stick three light gun mounts (sub-40mm) on it, one on a platform on the bow and two on the aft corners of the hangar, get two commercial-grade helos (Dauphins? AB-212s? Don't think a Puma will fit height-wise(?) ), paint it white and write COASTGUARD down the side in big letters.
If you've got no domestic shipbuilding capability, you might as well have the work done in the US, sicne the ship is there anyway and so is the engine, hull and systems rebuild experience. That would imply three 25mm Bushmasters (either hand-aimed or RWS) as the guns.
Taiwanese example. Note the 40mm Bofors amidships (flanking the 76mm) and the missile boxes between the masts:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F2.bp.blogspot.com%2F-e-Hnk6vzHfk%2FUkmiJCQGPNI%2FAAAAAAAABHk%2Fq6nJ2TaNgao%2Fs1600%2F1106%281%29.jpg&hash=3a029fc345cdc3cc2cd1e8e4988d9108732a128c)
Late-service USN example. Note the 25mm RWS on a platform over the former Mk.13 mount, and the removed STIR aerial behind the main mast:
(https://s3.amazonaws.com/the-drive-staging/message-editor%2F1540093737512-ddd1.jpg)
Spanish-built Santa Maria class. Note Meroka CIWS (12 x 20mm!) instead of Phalanx and Italian RAN-12S low-level air-search radar on main mast:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48927970463_2c1978ac7c_o.jpg)
Luxury super yacht. Scratchbuild a swoopy new superstructure featuring a pool, bar, stables etc.
If you must have weapons then make it a Bond villain luxury super yacht with pop-up armament and a secret underwater submarine dock.
Quote from: zenrat on December 27, 2021, 03:19:17 AM
Luxury super yacht. Scratchbuild a swoopy new superstructure featuring a pool, bar, stables etc.
If you must have weapons then make it a Bond villain luxury super yacht with pop-up armament and a secret underwater submarine dock.
Brilliant idea!
Yeah, a new, sexier superstructure would really do magic to the originally rather hideously looking frigate. My suggestions, for inspiration only, from the bow:
- continuous main deck, i.e a narrower superstructure.
- stepped armament platforms up front.
- 76 mm OTO Melara in A position and a six or eight cell VLS in B position.
- GCS/MCS on/abaft bridge roof.
- modern rotary 3D AESA radar on solid main mast.
- higher and slimmer rear mast featuring ESM/ECM and comms.
- second GCS/MCS on plinth
- narrower, one-helo hangar flanked by 40mm secondary guns. CIWS on top, preferably RAM.
- keep helo deck as is.
Viable? Never from a financial point of view. A new hull would be both better and cheaper, but with these big changes, you could always sell the idea by calling it an evolved FFG build on experiences from the OHP. ;)
Quote from: zenrat on December 27, 2021, 03:19:17 AM
Luxury super yacht. Scratchbuild a swoopy new superstructure featuring a pool, bar, stables etc.
If you must have weapons then make it a Bond villain luxury super yacht with pop-up armament and a secret underwater submarine dock.
Tangent, but if I was in the super-yacht market I would ABSOLUTELY show my disdain for gin palaces by keeping
every square inch of that gloriously functional flat-panel superstructure :wacko:.
My mods would be:
Nav radar and SATCOM domes all on one mast (but keep it a functional lattice mast), with all other masts/platforms removed.
Jacuzzi and sun-deck amidships in the former 76mm/STIR area.
Diving room and stern platform in the former towed-array bay.
Extra luxury (not but flashy) accomodation in one of the two hangar bays (don't need two helos) and the former CIC and command spaces.
Raised observation lounge (something like a giant space station cupola) over the former Mk.13 position.
Fancier boats.
...and painted in a REALLY flash colour scheme too! None of that 'oh so last year' black and chrome!
It was proposed recently to reactivate several of the class. I've no idea of what the proposals were regarding equipment, but I guess you could use your own ideas and the advice above to bring it up to date. Maybe add some stealth features to the superstructure.
I believe one of the stipulations for the Constellation class was to use an existing Hull, so you could start from scratch and design your own modern superstructure and equipment.
Quote from: Weaver on December 27, 2021, 08:02:22 AM
Quote from: zenrat on December 27, 2021, 03:19:17 AM
Luxury super yacht. Scratchbuild a swoopy new superstructure featuring a pool, bar, stables etc.
If you must have weapons then make it a Bond villain luxury super yacht with pop-up armament and a secret underwater submarine dock.
Tangent, but if I was in the super-yacht market I would ABSOLUTELY show my disdain for gin palaces by keeping every square inch of that gloriously functional flat-panel superstructure :wacko:.
My mods would be:
Nav radar and SATCOM domes all on one mast (but keep it a functional lattice mast), with all other masts/platforms removed.
Jacuzzi and sun-deck amidships in the former 76mm/STIR area.
Diving room and stern platform in the former towed-array bay.
Extra luxury (not but flashy) accomodation in one of the two hangar bays (don't need two helos) and the former CIC and command spaces.
Raised observation lounge (something like a giant space station cupola) over the former Mk.13 position.
Fancier boats.
Couple more ideas:
Since we're saving a ton of topweight by losing most of the masts, we can probably afford to make the funnel taller to keep the exhaust above people on the upper deck.
It would be cool to replace the sonar dome with a clear observation dome. :mellow:
Quote from: Mossie on December 27, 2021, 03:38:16 PM
It was proposed recently to reactivate several of the class. I've no idea of what the proposals were regarding equipment, but I guess you could use your own ideas and the advice above to bring it up to date. Maybe add some stealth features to the superstructure.
I believe one of the stipulations for the Constellation class was to use an existing Hull, so you could start from scratch and design your own modern superstructure and equipment.
I think the idea was to use them as simple 'patrol and presence' assets in order to free up bigger warships for more important duties. In that case, they probably wouldn't get much in the way of new equipment, just a reactivation of their old kit. They'd only get new stuff if the old stuff was either completely unsupportable, or literally gone. For instance, the USCG 'harvested' a lot of 76mm gun system parts from the mothballed Perry fleet to keep their cutters going on the cheap.
Weld two together side-by-each, as they say here, with another hull's worth of space between 'em, and fabricate a half-depth hull to fill the gap. Now you've got a very stable, if a bit slower, hull with a lot of space for whatever you want - swimming pool for the yacht, crew quarters for the Naval versions, etc.
Lots of WHIF potential, with twin hangars, deck space etc.
- Riverine mother ship, Brown water Navy
- Defense against swarm attacks. Mini guns, Sea Cobras on the deck.
- Anti-piracy.
- Special ops platform. Small boats, Little birds.
- Platform for VTOL jet, or tail sitter.
Iranian with Russian or Chinese systems replacing US ones?
Forgot about this thread but funnily enough, I've been working on a profile of a modded Perry for a story I'm doing. Should be ready soon. :thumbsup:
Here's an interesting light on the issues for a poor 2nd hand user. The Phillipines have been offered Perrys repeatedly by the US since the late 1990s. However, they've always declined them on the grounds that since the ships lack diesel cruise engines, they'd be prohibitively expensive for them to run. They're not averse to gas turbines per se since they operate three ex-USCG Hamilton class cutters, it's the fact that the Perrys have to run their LM2500s at uneconomical revs to do, say, 12 knots that's the problem.
Quote from: Weaver on February 23, 2022, 04:50:02 PM
Forgot about this thread but funnily enough, I've been working on a profile of a modded Perry for a story I'm doing. Should be ready soon. :thumbsup:
Here's an interesting light on the issues for a poor 2nd hand user. The Phillipines have been offered Perrys repeatedly by the US since the late 1990s. However, they've always declined them on the grounds that since the ships lack diesel cruise engines, they'd be prohibitively expensive for them to run. They're not averse to gas turbines per se since they operate three ex-USCG Hamilton class cutters, it's the fact that the Perrys have to run their LM2500s at uneconomical revs to do, say, 12 knots that's the problem.
Fuel burn is a huge issue. The US Coast Guard looked hard at the US Navy LCS ships, which have been a ship without a mission, but fuel burn was atrocious for typical US Coast Guard missions. Gas turbines are great for speed and maneuvering, not so much for endurance and cost. The ex-Hamilton class were a good compromise, with the turbines only used for dashes.
Quote from: sandiego89 on February 24, 2022, 02:56:43 PM
Quote from: Weaver on February 23, 2022, 04:50:02 PM
Forgot about this thread but funnily enough, I've been working on a profile of a modded Perry for a story I'm doing. Should be ready soon. :thumbsup:
Here's an interesting light on the issues for a poor 2nd hand user. The Phillipines have been offered Perrys repeatedly by the US since the late 1990s. However, they've always declined them on the grounds that since the ships lack diesel cruise engines, they'd be prohibitively expensive for them to run. They're not averse to gas turbines per se since they operate three ex-USCG Hamilton class cutters, it's the fact that the Perrys have to run their LM2500s at uneconomical revs to do, say, 12 knots that's the problem.
Fuel burn is a huge issue. The US Coast Guard looked hard at the US Navy LCS ships, which have been a ship without a mission, but fuel burn was atrocious for typical US Coast Guard missions. Gas turbines are great for speed and maneuvering, not so much for endurance and cost. The ex-Hamilton class were a good compromise, with the turbines only used for dashes.
Well GTs can give decent fuel economy IF they're matched to the required speed, so they're in their natural powerband at the required prop revs. The RN adopted small Tynes for cruise and large Olympus for boost in a CODOG arrangement and was very happy with them. They then went first to Spey+Tyne in CODAG, then diesel-electric+Spey in CODLAG, although the latter was more about quietness for towed-array towing than fuel economy. The USN adopted a one-size-fits-all approach with the LM2500, which was fine when you had four of them in a Spruance and could run on one or two for cruise, but didn't give you many options in a 2xLM2500 Perry, where the choice was 0%, 50%, 100% or run off optimum revs.