This idea has just floated through the void between my ears, possibly because of the number of Soviet/Russian aircraft being built around the place, & it's probably been proposed in the past but;
"What If the USA was torn apart by a Bolshevik revolution in 1918/1919 & became a communist nation & the Russian Empire, possibly as a constitutional monarchy or non-socialist republic, survived as a capitalist nation/empire?"
Ideas, anyone? :unsure:
Border between the Union of American Socialist Republics and Imperial Canada is fortified leading to Lloyd George speechifying about "an Iron Curtain across North America.
All central and South American nations except Brazil and Argentina see the light and join the UASR. Constant border skirmishes in the Amazon Jungle.
Imperial Russia expands its borders West to include Poland, Austria and Switzerland.
UASR back workers revolt in Germany. Russia uses this as an excuse to send peacekeeping troops into Germany.
Trans European Alliance of Nations does the same.
War ensues.
Britain sits on the fence supplying weapons and banking services to both sides.
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 26, 2020, 07:09:28 PM
"What If the USA was torn apart by a Bolshevik revolution in 1918/1919 & became a communist nation & the Russian Empire, possibly as a constitutional monarchy or non-socialist republic, survived as a capitalist nation/empire?"
Ideas, anyone? :unsure:
Is this timeline based on there being no World War One, or is it post World War One as we know it ?
Reason I ask is that one of the many plans floated after the February Revolution in Russia was for a Federal State, another was for a Constitutional Monarchy. Neither would have had Nicholas as head of state as he was a die hard believer in the "Divine Right of Kings". Alternatively you could have a constitutional monarchy founded post the 1905 revolution which might just give you a scenario in which Russia comes through the First World War and emerges as one of the victors and thus has a seat around the table at Versailles. That's the only way I can see anything like a stable Russia emerging from WWI.
The one that's always bumping around in my brain is what if Franz Joseph dies at the age of 70 in 1900, rather than at the age of 86 in 1916. Franz Ferdinand becomes Emperor of Austria and King of Hungary and implements his federalisation plans thus preventing the final decline and fall of the Austro/Hungarian Empire.
Put the two together and you might not get WWI, or get it in a very different form. Possibly with the German Empire having to stand alone against a France determined to win back Alsace/Lorraine and its pride after 1870/71.
With no or at least a very different WWI the scenario you outline becomes more viable I feel. So what does Canada do whilst the American Revolution Mk II is going on ? Stand on the side lines and watch it unfurl or maybe it takes advantage of the situation and with help from G.B. takes control of a couple of the North Eastern States ? Maybe they are invited "in" by those states ? Perhaps you get a Second American Civil War between the left wing and right wing states ? Maybe 3 groupings of states ? Left, right and the West Coast. I'm not sure about an American Civil War Mk II as there wouldn't be the symbology of the Monarchy for the anti revolutionary forces to rally around as there was in Russia with the Whites, but I do feel you'd get a long period of upheaval at the least which outsiders would seek to take advantage of.
An Iron Curtain along the 49th Parallel steadily being reinforced whilst a Red USA steadily expands its territory and influence south through the already revolutionary lands of Central and S America certainly makes an interesting scenario. Or maybe, just maybe does a Red USA ally itself with a socialist France in its attempts to win back Alsace/Lorraine ?
Plenty of food for though there I feel.
My idea was post-WW1, with Russia, although, maybe, not "winning", becoming an anvil against which the Austro-Hungarian/German armies are broken time-&-again.
My personal preference included the Duma not being quite so ineffectual, forcing Tsar Nikolai II to abdicate (either in 1905 or in 1915) & instituting a constitutional monarchy with Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich (Nikolai's oldest surviving brother) being made Tsar.
Realistically speaking the necessary background for that to happen really isn't in place
at that time, especially in regards to the US. You'd have to go way back to be able to
set up conditions that might result in that sort of scenario, however in the US it's
highly doubtful that it would have happened with something analogous to the Russian
Revolution.
In all honesty, this was just the beginnings of a mind game without any RW impetus, just an idea to play around with where the world may have gone under this scenario.
You know, "What If ...?" :unsure:
I just wish someone would tell me who Major Powers was/is, and what did he/she achieve ?
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Major Powers served under General Duties and had Corporal Punishment as his batman.
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 27, 2020, 08:42:25 AM
My idea was post-WW1, with Russia, although, maybe, not "winning", becoming an anvil against which the Austro-Hungarian/German armies are broken time-&-again.
My personal preference included the Duma not being quite so ineffectual, forcing Tsar Nikolai II to abdicate (either in 1905 or in 1915) & instituting a constitutional monarchy with Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich (Nikolai's oldest surviving brother) being made Tsar.
Right. I didn't express myself properly I should of been clearer in saying that Russia found itself on the winning side and thus had a seat at Versailles. There are some interesting scenarios you can build around Tannenberg where initially there was some panic within the German High Command, but it's still difficult to see Russia winning.
If Nicholas either excepted the role of a constitutional monarch in 1905 (unlikely given both his, Alexander's and Rasputin's views) or abdicated and was replaced on the throne by another member of the family then you get the best chance of the "old" Russia surviving. Much latter then 1905 and it becomes very difficult to see.
Unrest in the US ? I really don't know anything like enough about US social or political history to comment much. Other than I know there were large labour movements in the US pre 1914 although they were closely linked to crime in a lot of cases.
Nonetheless it's a fascinating scenario and you now have me musing on those entrepreneurs and engineers/designers who would flee the US and set up shop in Canada or Europe ? :thumbsup: Or maybe never go there in the first place if unrest was rife ?
As I said here, Chris;
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 27, 2020, 07:17:43 PM
In all honesty, this was just the beginnings of a mind game without any RW impetus, just an idea to play around with where the world may have gone under this scenario.
You know, "What If ...?" :unsure:
The whole thing was just in the hopes of kicking off a fun though experiment
without delving into the how, just accepting that
it is & working from that.
If I sound a bit grumpy, by the way, it's because I am. I'm also confused as to when the Hell the world decided that everything had to make historical sense when trying to have a bit of fun!
There was once a time when you could say "This is the scenario, let's play with it!" & people would say "Sure!" & have fun playing in that odd little world.
All-of-a-sudden that's not how it is, everyone has to know how, when & why this scenario came into being - even here in a haven for "What-If ...?".
Chris, if you don't mind, could you delete the whole thread ... It's not fun any more. :banghead: Belay that request! ;)
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 28, 2020, 07:10:42 AM
There was once a time when you could say "This is the scenario, let's play with it!" & people would say "Sure!" & have fun playing in that odd little world.
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Thanks, Kit! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 28, 2020, 07:10:42 AM
There was once a time when you could say "This is the scenario, let's play with it!" & people would say "Sure!" & have fun playing in that odd little world.
All-of-a-sudden that's not how it is, everyone has to know how, when & why this scenario came into being - even here in a haven for "What-If ...?".
Quote from: PR19_Kit on September 28, 2020, 07:22:51 AM
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSsssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
I feel you. I just had a former member of our esteemed group go all JMN in comment on the dA post (https://www.deviantart.com/scooternjng/art/Londthyrian-Confederacy-Essex-class-1970s-856471291) about the Londthyrian Essex-class (https://www.whatifmodellers.com/index.php?topic=47176.msg898353#msg898353) about how CVs 50-53 were never assigned names or started, and how I could have taken other Essexes (including the
Franklin :o ) as "options". He's gonna have a big issue when I stick Hornets on my Essex and Audacious :wacko:
Its my 'verse, don't bring reality into it (which is also why I didn't comment on this thread initially). And as for your suggestion? Debs actually wins in 1920, becoming the first Socialist (and convicted "felon") President.
Thank you, too, scooter! :thumbsup:
Amazing what a little support can do for a mood! ;D
So, I'll try this again, only word it differently:
What If ...
Post-World War 1, the USA became a quasi-democratic Communist state (ie: only various factions of the Communist ideology being eligible to elected office), while Russia became a Westminster-based bicameral democratic constitutional monarchy, with Grand Duke Mikhail Alexandrovich Romanov replacing his brother, Nikolai II, as Tsar ...
Discuss?
First thing that strikes me, in relation to world civil & military aviation, is that Igor Ivanovich Sikorsky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igor_Sikorsky) & Alexandr Nikolaievich Prokofiev de Seversky (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_P._de_Seversky) probably wouldn't have emigrated to the US, meaning that their aviation expertise & inventiveness would have remained in Russia.
Any ideas on who would try to/probably flee the USA to, say Canada, the UK or ... Russia? :unsure:
Fairly sure Henry Ford would remain in the US, he was quite the supporter of the Leninist/Stalinist USSR in the RW.
Howard Hughes would certainly give it a try, & probably succeed.
Well I can't really speak on the wider scenario as it is a bit too broad for me. I'll leave that to more vivid imaginations. The aeronautical émigrés stay home idea you mention above though is an interesting one and is one I have mulled myself. I did a profile inspired by a Alexander Kartveli stays home scenario some time ago that is not entirely off-topic(?).
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50397028231_f816af8fd2_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jMpWFR)Kartveli Ka-7SM 'Fumble E' VVS Blue 19 (https://flic.kr/p/2jMpWFR)
Cool! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 28, 2020, 07:10:42 AM
If I sound a bit grumpy, by the way, it's because I am. I'm also confused as to when the Hell the world decided that everything had to make historical sense when trying to have a bit of fun!
Apologies but I've just finished reading a series of books about The First World War on the Eastern Front and I'm afraid my brain just slipped into thinking about your scenario combined with the actual history.
If you want I'll delete my response ?
Nah, it's OK, Chris, it wasn't just you. Had similar responses on BtS. I'm fine, now! :angel: ;)
So, carrying the idea a little further:
I see the United Socialist States of America (USSA) becoming even more isolationist from Europe but, in keeping with the Ongoing Revolutionary Process underpinning International Communism, pushing south into Central America. Canada, being part of the British Empire, & associated with its various allies, being a bit too risky to take on directly, so becoming a nest of intrigue, full of agents provocateurs & counter-agents provocateurs, fifth columnists & counter-fifth columnists, spies & counter-spies.
The various post-WW1 naval treaties fail, as the European democracies see them as the USSA's attempt to quell their ability to project their influence globally, but, especially, in South America, & limit the strength of the Royal Navy, in particular.
Meanwhile, the British find reasons not to immediately begin paying back the USSA for war loans negotiated with the USA, thus giving them more money in the 1920's-30's to grow their economy.
Simultaneously, the Russians grow stronger & more industrialised on the back of greater social freedoms, brought about by the reduction of the power & influence of the nobility, allowing more entrepreneurship & the effective exploitation of resources.
There's more but I'm too tired, right now, to go on but if anyone else wants to express where they see this going: Go for it! :thumbsup:
I can definitely see Central America falling under the influence (if not control) of a USSA even more so than the real world one did/has ?
Does it then role on into S America or do they simply support the whole range of left wing groups who form down there ? Could you get Britain/France/Netherlands involved in some anti guerrilla activities in the Guiana ?
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 28, 2020, 08:59:49 AM
Any ideas on who would try to/probably flee the USA to, say Canada, the UK or ... Russia? :unsure:
J. Edgar Hoover? Joe Kennedy Senior and family?
Quote from: NARSES2 on September 30, 2020, 06:08:25 AM
I can definitely see Central America falling under the influence (if not control) of a USSA even more so than the real world one did/has ?
Does it then role on into S America or do they simply support the whole range of left wing groups who form down there ? Could you get Britain/France/Netherlands involved in some anti guerrilla activities in the Guiana ?
I see Central America becoming a bunch of closely controlled client states, like Central Europe was for the USSR in OTL.
South America would be a major USSA focus of support for Left Wing factions, as would, to a lesser but not insignificant degree, Africa & SE Asia.
Quote from: Mossie on September 30, 2020, 08:12:50 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 28, 2020, 08:59:49 AM
Any ideas on who would try to/probably flee the USA to, say Canada, the UK or ... Russia? :unsure:
J. Edgar Hoover? Joe Kennedy Senior and family?
Good call! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Mossie on September 30, 2020, 08:12:50 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 28, 2020, 08:59:49 AM
Any ideas on who would try to/probably flee the USA to, say Canada, the UK or ... Russia? :unsure:
J. Edgar Hoover? Joe Kennedy Senior and family?
McCarthy would have an interesting life in this timeline!
Quote from: sideshowbob9 on October 01, 2020, 01:34:23 AM
Quote from: Mossie on September 30, 2020, 08:12:50 AM
Quote from: Old Wombat on September 28, 2020, 08:59:49 AM
Any ideas on who would try to/probably flee the USA to, say Canada, the UK or ... Russia? :unsure:
J. Edgar Hoover? Joe Kennedy Senior and family?
McCarthy would have an interesting life in this timeline!
McCarthy believed himself to be a super-patriot. He was only 10 years old at the end of WW1. He may well have joined the "Young Socialists of America" and become a demagogue at the opposite end of the political spectrum to real world.
"Have you, at any time, ceased to be a member of the Communist Party of this great country?"
Quote from: Rheged on October 01, 2020, 02:06:18 AM
McCarthy believed himself to be a super-patriot. He was only 10 years old at the end of WW1. He may well have joined the "Young Socialists of America" and become a demagogue at the opposite end of the political spectrum to real world.
"Have you, at any time, ceased to be a member of the Communist Party of this great country?"
I think this is a very relevant observation.
Having glanced at J Edgar's early life I can believe he'd have gotten out & been an enforcer of some form for the "White Americans" (White in the same sense as "White Russians", no racial basis).
Depending on how the Communists came to power would have a lot to say in how the Kennedy's fared;
- If through sudden violent revolution, then they may have ended up lying in pools of blood in a Boston basement. However, although they were a political family, Joe Kennedy Sr didn't begin amassing his fortune until after 1920, so may not have been such a major target.
- If through the electoral process, the manager of a Boston steel works with a more liberal political stance may have been useful to the USSA & have been wooed into the Party, rather than executed ... Maybe JFK would still end up as President, just of the USSA.
The young McCarthy is highly likely to have become a Commissar of the People, presiding over show trials & executions, he has that fanatical trait that more militant Communists would have loved (to a point, then he'd be "purged").
Meanwhile:
15 year-old Howard Hughes Jr has escaped to England with his parents but finds the weather & the British not to his liking. So, after his parents' deaths & still not yet 20, moves on to France, where he begins to produce moving pictures.
Australia, seeing the threat across the Pacific, requests assistance from the UK in becoming more industrialised, which, although England likes maintaining its manufacturing hold over its (former) colonies, it agrees to. This is as a result of the UK also seeing the threat across an ocean & understanding that two industrial bases on opposite sides of the world increases the strength of the Empire. Australia commences a recruiting drive from industrial centres across Europe to bring in skilled & unskilled (but industry-familiar) workers - this puts it in a mild conflict with Russia, which is also looking to increase its skilled labour force to train its own workers.
Now, I just need to think about how to start bringing all these ideas into a format that WE can use to grow this idea! :o :o
By the late 1920's young black americans, having been educated by a state which believed all men were created equal irrespective of skin colour, would make their way to africa to bring about the glorious day and free their ancestral homelands from the various Imperial powers controlling them.
There is also the question of Japan. Russia would have had a score to settle there.
Quote from: zenrat on October 01, 2020, 03:58:53 AM
By the late 1920's young black americans, having been educated by a state which believed all men were created equal irrespective of skin colour, would make their way to africa to bring about the glorious day and free their ancestral homelands from the various Imperial powers controlling them.
Good idea! :thumbsup:
Quote from: zenrat on October 01, 2020, 03:58:53 AM
There is also the question of Japan. Russia would have had a score to settle there.
Maybe. Maybe not. The
old monarchy is gone, the nobility has lost much of its power & the new parliament has no real axe to grind.
Quote from: Old Wombat on October 01, 2020, 06:24:03 AM
Quote from: zenrat on October 01, 2020, 03:58:53 AM
There is also the question of Japan. Russia would have had a score to settle there.
Maybe. Maybe not. The old monarchy is gone, the nobility has lost much of its power & the new parliament has no real axe to grind.
But the navy will remember...
Quote from: zenrat on October 01, 2020, 03:58:53 AM
By the late 1920's young black americans, having been educated by a state which believed all men were created equal irrespective of skin colour, would make their way to africa to bring about the glorious day and free their ancestral homelands from the various Imperial powers controlling them.
Why?
A. Black Americans aren't 'Africans' and aren't greeted as long-lost brethren in Africa.
B. The majority of the transported slaves came from West and West-Central Africa and
as such would be treated with an even greater skepticism by the rest of the continent.
The statements earlier in the thread that "I don't know much about US history" are
painfully proven in this topic and seem to be mostly informed by stereotype, bias,
misconception and misinformation.
^ Ouch! A tad harsh since this is ALL speculative. Not to mention that generalizations are required if (like me) you want to convey the general concept but don't want to go into 30-page thesis mode.
Maybe we should play in the Russian bit of the sandbox for a while.
Russia would still need a warm-water port (or 2). Any speculation on potential alliances to achieve this? A great deal of Russia's naval freedom of navigation and thus colonial(?) and trade aspirations would rely upon Britain's and Turkey's co-operation it would seem to me.
I'm not going to argue with you Jon, but as recently as July 4th 2020 The Washington Post website had a headline reading "Ghana to black Americans: Come home. We'll help you build a life here."
You can read it here (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/africa/ghana-to-black-americans-come-home-well-help-you-build-a-life-here/2020/07/03/1b11a914-b4e3-11ea-9a1d-d3db1cbe07ce_story.html).