Seeing as how the F1 had a landing speed of 125kts why did'nt they ever develope a navalised variant instead of buying the F8 Crusader?
While we're at it....
Would have been interesting to see it re-engined with a M53 or F404, I know South Africa flew one with a RD33.
But what about J79's (like the Kfir) or Avon (like the aborted attempt to sell that to Australia), or even a Spey since they are more of the periode of the planes heyday?
somewhere, recently (possibly here) i read that a proposed naval mirage f.1 WAS proposed...
now here it gets fuzzy because i don't remember exactly what i read, but i believe it was proposed as an alternative to the naval jaguar.
as for speys, i think that radish has that one covered with his efforts at the boulton paul works in wolverhampton, with his range of boulton paul spectres.
the f.1n would be a great model though... :cheers:
how about a twin engined stretched version for fleet defence, with a beefy radar and a french made long range active radar homing missile? sort of "une phoenixe", so to speak... :ph34r:
Yes, an M53 engined naval version was proposed by an Aeronavale report in 1972, probably more to bang another nail in the Jaguar M coffin than anything else.
M53 "Super Atar" was no more than a turbofan derivative of the old Atar series, not especially high tech. The max thrust was 8,500kg, compared to 7200kg for Atar 9K50.
The F1E prototype (competed against the F-16 in the "sale of the century") with M53 was 23mm longer, with slightly enlarged intakes to suit the increased mass flow (84kg/sec from 72kg/sec) and a slightly bulged rear fuselage.
F1E had an INS, modern HUD and a Cyrano IV-100 radar. The new engine gave 1200m higher ceiling, extra 60m/sec initial climb rate and extra 120m/sec climb rate at medium altitudes, extra 0.7g in sustained turning at Mach 0.95, 2.5 min off the time to 40,000ft and an extra 105km on hi-lo-hi range with 4 1,000lb bombs.
I first envisioned a naval F.1 as an F-8 replacement, entering service in the early 80s with a Mirage 2000 engine and radar :blink:
The M53 is the same engine as those used on Mirage2000's, just an earlier version of said. Like with all engines it has grown in thrust, reliability, servicability etc...
Dassault did have a twin engine design in the 70s, I think called the ATF ironically enough, very swept back wings twin M53 and two recessed in tandem Super R530's along the centerline (another two could be hung one on each wing). Such was the cost of actualy developing it that they dropped the project.
F1-N sounds a good idea IMO, shame it never happend....hmmm should have updated it with RSS making it a CCV but I guess the Mirage2000 idea dominated all. Irony that had they done a unstable F1 the benfits would have made it last longer as a fighter.
QuoteIts my understanding that the UK will be re-introducing a conventional aircraft carrier in the near future.
Ah, you mean HMS Improbable and HMS Unlikely as Radish likes to call them? :lol:
Hmmm...
first off its damn typical of the French to cut their own nose off to spite their face, making the F1 all french even when offered as a competitor to the F16....had they added a few other nations bits of kit the thing might have stood more chance.
Equaly its odd the French never made an offer of a navalised version to the UK, since first flight was what? 1967 that suggests they could have offered something before then as part of a deal.
Powered by say a Avon or a more modern engine or the time......
Strikes me that the thing is low enough in weight and slow enough at landing to operate off of even Hermes.
euqaly its damn odd they never flew a FBW version, especialy when you consider all through the 70's and early 80's Brough had some somewhat similar shaped aircraft comming off of the drawing boards.
Seems like a lot of wasted opportunities there.
The Mirage F.1 already looks carrier-ready with those big, rough-field capable landing gear. Just do some wing folds & it'd be a good what-if carrier fighter. Maybe naval Mirage F.1N's for Argentina, Brazil, Aeronavale, Japan, India & Australia...
:cheers: Bryan
japan!
a bit far fetched as the usa seems to have japan in its pocket, aircraft sales wise, but they would look great!
brazilian ones flying from the foch...great stuff!
Quotejapan!
a bit far fetched as the usa seems to have japan in its pocket, aircraft sales wise, but they would look great!
brazilian ones flying from the foch...great stuff!
Nope, Japan flies F-15JNs off their carrier, replacing their F-4JNs. I should know, because I'm building a model of their CVDN. ^_^
Brasil, however, is a great idea! B)
JoeP
Thread revival:
What about a FSW F1. - simply reverse the standard wings?
Regards,
Greg
Ok, this was January 2005 - Pollux joined following april, I joined one year later. ;D
Didn't see Overscan post of course- not very nice on M53! -
I had heard too of a naval F1, but I thought it was powered by the Atar.
Answer to the question "WTF didn't they navalised the F1 ?" is easy : its simply because the competition was on STRIKE aircrafts (A-4, A-7, Jaguar M, SE...) not multirole fighters.
Vought Crusader just had entered aeronavale service in 1965... but they were the last ever build by Vought! That's the problem.
The F-1 flew in 1967 but Bigand crash delayed IOC by three years.
If the aeronavale chose to wait for the F-1, then fleet defence lays on Etendard IV until 1972 at best.
FSW F-1 sounds cool!
Politics and national pride aside. Here is something for you to contemplate:
Mirage F.1 with avionics from the MiG-23 to include the signature radome of the Flogger. May as well toss in the engine too. Clients for this little gem could be any number of third world countries that have a need for speed with the simplicity of maintenance at a really friendly price.
The fuselage shape of the F1 is closer to the Mig-21's than the Mig-23's. I'm even not sure that such a radar could fit in a Mirage 2000!
But the idea of a Mirage with Russian avionics always sounds good to me! I just like the idea of a full load of those beautiful and terrific Russian missiles under a F1!
Quote from: Archibald on January 27, 2008, 03:18:56 AM
Ok, this was January 2005 - Pollux joined following april, I joined one year later. ;D
Didn't see Overscan post of course- not very nice on M53! -
I had heard too of a naval F1, but I thought it was powered by the Atar.
Answer to the question "WTF didn't they navalised the F1 ?" is easy : its simply because the competition was on STRIKE aircrafts (A-4, A-7, Jaguar M, SE...) not multirole fighters.
Vought Crusader just had entered aeronavale service in 1965... but they were the last ever build by Vought! That's the problem.
The F-1 flew in 1967 but Bigand crash delayed IOC by three years.
If the aeronavale chose to wait for the F-1, then fleet defence lays on Etendard IV until 1972 at best.
FSW F-1 sounds cool!
Anything would be better than the Etendard IV / Super Etendard
This would have to be one of the most limited capability aircraft made in the West, during the Cold War (A some what equivalent of the Su-7 'Fitter', in its limited weapons load or fuel equation – except the Su-7 was more rugged and hard hitting and gave good combat service!!).
Man did the French Navy pilots get ripped off or what!
M.A.D
Quote from: Geoff on March 19, 2008, 03:14:35 AM
Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on March 17, 2008, 09:59:23 PM
Politics and national pride aside. Here is something for you to contemplate:
Mirage F.1 with avionics from the MiG-23 to include the signature radome of the Flogger. May as well toss in the engine too. Clients for this little gem could be any number of third world countries that have a need for speed with the simplicity of maintenance at a really friendly price.
I did do an F-1 with the intakes and exhaust off a Mig-23 as a PLAAF licenced built a/c based on one of Deinos pictures. They do fit ok, but the radome mmmm may have to be shortened IIRC due to the diameter of the fuselage.
Now that would look good as a profile!
A PLAAF Mirage F1
With the PLAAF picking the Dassault design over other Western design, as a replacement for its MiG-15 and MiG-19's, at a time when PRC and the Soviet Union was at odds with one another, and boarder clashes.
The PRC was said to have preferred the Dassault F1 design over its competitors, due to its – cost-to-performance ratio, rough-field performance and the wiliness to allow for license manufacturing, and the French Governments wiliness not to attach human rights issues to the deal!
M.A.D
Quote from: MAD on March 20, 2008, 12:58:59 AM
Quote from: Archibald on January 27, 2008, 03:18:56 AM
Ok, this was January 2005 - Pollux joined following april, I joined one year later. ;D
Didn't see Overscan post of course- not very nice on M53! -
I had heard too of a naval F1, but I thought it was powered by the Atar.
Answer to the question "WTF didn't they navalised the F1 ?" is easy : its simply because the competition was on STRIKE aircrafts (A-4, A-7, Jaguar M, SE...) not multirole fighters.
Vought Crusader just had entered aeronavale service in 1965... but they were the last ever build by Vought! That's the problem.
The F-1 flew in 1967 but Bigand crash delayed IOC by three years.
If the aeronavale chose to wait for the F-1, then fleet defence lays on Etendard IV until 1972 at best.
FSW F-1 sounds cool!
Anything would be better than the Etendard IV / Super Etendard
This would have to be one of the most limited capability aircraft made in the West, during the Cold War (A some what equivalent of the Su-7 ‘Fitter’, in its limited weapons load or fuel equation – except the Su-7 was more rugged and hard hitting and gave good combat service!!).
Man did the French Navy pilots get ripped off or what!
M.A.D
Well, we could develop a fighter version of the Etendard! Not saying it would be a good dogfighter, but it could fit into the same niche as the F-4 (heavy, sluggish fighter-bomber).
Hum... The Super Etendard is not such a bad plane. It's just a kind of of A-4 Skyhawk that never get the last updates (F404-like engine, multipurpose radar etc...)
For me, its main problem was its centerline undercarriage: the position of the landing gears doesn't allowed heavy bomb carriage ala Skyhawk. The best I saw on centerline was 2 bombs on a twin bomb rack under an Argentinian plane.
I always thought that the Super Etendard was a mistake. It was sold with the "Etendard IV communality" argument while reality later show that it was a was too difefrent to have the same maintain, and too similar to be economically and technologically attractive!
If the A-4 was probably a worse choice for the Marine (because it cannot carry the Exocet), the A-7 sounds good to me, and Archie's Mirage F1M even better!!
The Super Etendard right now is far away from what it was. For such a light aircraft, it could carry a huge variety of weapons and payload (refueling pods, GBU-12/22, EGBU-12, rockets, bombs, Magic II air-air missiles, Damocles laser designator, Exocet anti-ship heavy missiles, but also recce pod and ASMP nuclear missile).
Actually, its really "raison d'être" are the last four items I quoted. If it is still so important for the French Navy, it's because the Rafale are not here in suffisant numbers, and they are not all fitted with laser designator, Exocet, recce pod and ASMP.
But very soon, the Rafale M will receive Damocles in a full integration mode, Reco-NG pod, ASMP-A, and Exocet in a new block. They already received their air-to-ground 30mm gun and refueling pod (something that wasn't planned before 2015 initially, in order to keep "something" in favour of the Super Etendard). At this moment, the Super Etendard won't be able to justify its own existence, except the fact that all the Rafale and Rafale pilots won't be fully operationnal until several years.
I think that the Super Etendard will finish its life like the old French Mirage F1, or some A-4 from other countries, as a cheap second line fighter, for African conflicts for example.
Quote from: MAD on March 20, 2008, 01:10:52 AM
Quote from: Geoff on March 19, 2008, 03:14:35 AM
Quote from: Jeffry Fontaine on March 17, 2008, 09:59:23 PM
Politics and national pride aside. Here is something for you to contemplate:
Mirage F.1 with avionics from the MiG-23 to include the signature radome of the Flogger. May as well toss in the engine too. Clients for this little gem could be any number of third world countries that have a need for speed with the simplicity of maintenance at a really friendly price.
I did do an F-1 with the intakes and exhaust off a Mig-23 as a PLAAF licenced built a/c based on one of Deinos pictures. They do fit ok, but the radome mmmm may have to be shortened IIRC due to the diameter of the fuselage.
Now that would look good as a profile!
A PLAAF Mirage F1
With the PLAAF picking the Dassault design over other Western design, as a replacement for its MiG-15 and MiG-19's, at a time when PRC and the Soviet Union was at odds with one another, and boarder clashes.
The PRC was said to have preferred the Dassault F1 design over its competitors, due to its – cost-to-performance ratio, rough-field performance and the wiliness to allow for license manufacturing, and the French Governments wiliness not to attach human rights issues to the deal!
M.A.D
Not too far off the mark, there was a Shenyang design that was broadly based on the Mirage F1 and powered by a Spey engine: http://airlinebuzz.com/forums/blog.php?b=37
Quote from: B777LR on March 20, 2008, 01:30:29 AM
Quote from: MAD on March 20, 2008, 12:58:59 AM
Quote from: Archibald on January 27, 2008, 03:18:56 AM
Ok, this was January 2005 - Pollux joined following april, I joined one year later. ;D
Didn't see Overscan post of course- not very nice on M53! -
I had heard too of a naval F1, but I thought it was powered by the Atar.
Answer to the question "WTF didn't they navalised the F1 ?" is easy : its simply because the competition was on STRIKE aircrafts (A-4, A-7, Jaguar M, SE...) not multirole fighters.
Vought Crusader just had entered aeronavale service in 1965... but they were the last ever build by Vought! That's the problem.
The F-1 flew in 1967 but Bigand crash delayed IOC by three years.
If the aeronavale chose to wait for the F-1, then fleet defence lays on Etendard IV until 1972 at best.
FSW F-1 sounds cool!
Anything would be better than the Etendard IV / Super Etendard
This would have to be one of the most limited capability aircraft made in the West, during the Cold War (A some what equivalent of the Su-7 'Fitter', in its limited weapons load or fuel equation – except the Su-7 was more rugged and hard hitting and gave good combat service!!).
Man did the French Navy pilots get ripped off or what!
M.A.D
Well, we could develop a fighter version of the Etendard! Not saying it would be a good dogfighter, but it could fit into the same niche as the F-4 (heavy, sluggish fighter-bomber).
Somewhere on this forum I've drawn a Mirage-Etendard hybrid.
The Etendard II/ IV/VI and the Mirage I/II/III-01 all appeared in 1955-1956
( Dassault was rather busy at the time, there was also the Super-Mystere B 1 / 2 /4!)
And they were all Mystere IV derivatives.
Etendard and Mirage bodies are basically Mystere IV fuselage with side-mounted intakes.
So both had a common "core" (and a similar engine, a non-afterburning Atar-101 giving 4500 kgp of thrust )
but
the Mirage had delta wing while the Etendard kept Mystere' swept wings (a bit scaled up maybe).
Next difference : Mirage III-01 received shock cones in its air intakes and afterburner. Speed rose from mach 1.3 to mach 2.2
The Etendard IV never receive these goodies so its speed stayed mach 1.2
But Mirage intakes and rear fuselage would fit nicely onto an Etendard !
Give Etendard IV Mirage III intakes and afterburner.
Give Super Etendard Mirage F1 intakes and afterburner.
Well, the Mirage F1 is not my favourite plane (REALLY NOT), but I know that it was a very unlucky aircraft, born in a moment when its great contender, the F16, was being marketed. I think that, in the case the Falcon had faced any problem (just as the actual situation on the JSF), the F1 could have enjoyed a greater success. Imagine the F1 winning the Century Contract, thus operating with all the european air forces that bought the F16: denmark, belgium, holland, and norway, even portugal.
Other operators that come to my mind are Turkey, Israel, Iran, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea, Argentina, India, Taiwan, Brazil, Mexico, and even the US...
With the years, the basic type could be improved with AMRAAMS and mavericks (these would look nice in a RNZAF bird), CFTs, new radars and so...
I always thought the F1 would look good in US colors, either as a front-line bird or as an aggressor.
Mirage F1.M53 upgraded with Kopyo radar as well as R-73 and R-77...... um...... :cheers:
Thats funny I'm actually working on an israeli F.1,I will be marking it as what the IAF might have done to suppliment and replace their A-4's anf Kifir's if the F-16 was not available
"Panzer"
Ahhh Mirage F1's one of my FAVOURITE subjects.
I have two of the Italeri re-releases in the stash. One will be real world, one not :wacko: - Not going to elaborate on that just now, but ones that were VERY close to being built - and still may be sometime -
USAFE Aggressor: (complimenting the F-5's at Alconbury in the 1980's),
JASDF: in the RF-4 style tactical camo
Dutch AF: Wraparound 'standard' pattern but in two greys and (much) reduced size roundels
Danish AF: Patchy overall OD
RNZAF: either Euro 1 type wraparound or the later overall Olive Green
Luv that aircraft.
Ian
One of the options I was thinking of was an advanced F1, similar to the development done with the Desert Falcon for the UAEF. Put M53 engine, CFTs, IRST, canards, wingtip AMRAAMs and underwing Paveways III or IV, even SDBs...then add digital camo or something alike. Who could pay for that? any arab country, Japan, even Switzerland... :rolleyes:
I'd bet my left toe if Israel & France hadn't had their falling out, F1s would have replaced the earlier MIII/5s the IDAF had in service.
Shas 8)
Quote from: gunfighter on September 30, 2008, 05:26:36 AM
Well, the Mirage F1 is not my favourite plane (REALLY NOT), but I know that it was a very unlucky aircraft, born in a moment when its great contender, the F16, was being marketed. I think that, in the case the Falcon had faced any problem (just as the actual situation on the JSF), the F1 could have enjoyed a greater success. Imagine the F1 winning the Century Contract, thus operating with all the european air forces that bought the F16: denmark, belgium, holland, and norway, even portugal.
Other operators that come to my mind are Turkey, Israel, Iran, Australia, Canada, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea, Argentina, India, Taiwan, Brazil, Mexico, and even the US...
With the years, the basic type could be improved with AMRAAMS and mavericks (these would look nice in a RNZAF bird), CFTs, new radars and so...
Well Australia for one did come under strong consideration in the early'70s - Dassault even offered a full production license which included the rights to produce components for every F1 sold worldwide even if the RAAF didn't select it!
Regards,
Greg
Do you think there could be any of these at topgunski? maybe ex-iraqi aircraft exchanged for mig-29s?
Quote from: gunfighter on October 03, 2008, 02:44:54 PM
Do you think there could be any of these at topgunski? maybe ex-iraqi aircraft exchanged for mig-29s?
Alternatively, maybe a few from South Africa after the program to re-engine one with a RD-33.
Regards,
Greg
There was a program to fit the Mirage with an RD-33? Interesting, might have to do a model of that...
Not only a program, but they also built a flying prototype. Haven't read anything on the performance, though.
Quote from: Sauragnmon on October 04, 2008, 11:46:29 AM
There was a program to fit the Mirage with an RD-33? Interesting, might have to do a model of that...
Here you go - some pics:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzak.cz%2Fmotory%2Frd-33%2Fsmr-95_f1az_1.jpg&hash=f0b08316f73e6e49149508f75d8e762a2540ba5a)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mzak.cz%2Fmotory%2Frd-33%2Fsmr-95_f1az_2.jpg&hash=0138a411dc0559edc8bc8499b98543f5df2b4af9)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airsceneuk.org.uk%2Fairshow01%2Fzhukovsky%2FSuper-Mirage-F1.jpg&hash=b7dfd574fda2582b3e434a169c33f17058bb7e4f)
See here (http://www.airsceneuk.org.uk/airshow01/zhukovsky/maks.htm) for some more info on the Super Mirage F.1 program.
Regards,
Greg
How about a kit bash involving the old Fujimi 1/48th (actually 1/50th) scale Mirage IIIR and the Mirage F.1? Cut the nose off the Fujimi kit and make it fit on the Mirage F.1 to create the rarely if ever seen Mirage F.1R :^) I am certain it would fool a few folks if placed on the display table.
What about a STOL F.1 with lift jets behind the pilot to allow super short take-offs (though not VTOL):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2FMirageF1V.jpg&hash=11c0cd71f44427d0085853907345da1f412d99c8)
regards,
Greg
Based on the twin stick?
Shas 8)
Quote from: GTX on December 12, 2008, 09:55:39 PM
What about a STOL F.1 with lift jets behind the pilot to allow super shot take-offs (though not VTOL):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2FMirageF1V.jpg&hash=11c0cd71f44427d0085853907345da1f412d99c8)
regards,
Greg
Turbomeca would provide the lift-jets (licence-built RB-189?) I like your concept!
The Texas military had a similar idea to the South Africans...
Quote from: Bryan H. on June 27, 2008, 01:16:02 PM
The Texas Army Air Corps has been a long-term user of Dassault products and (as is it's national defense policy) has built the Mirage F.1 under license. In Texan service, the Mirage F.1, built by General Dynamics, (Texas designation F-9 Mirage 2) was used as a multi-role light fighter. With its rough and primitive airfields capability, ease of maintenance, good performance (payload, speed, range, multi-role capability and diversity of missions); the Mirage F.1 had been found particularly useful in "colonial" and other "primitive" settings. In the early '90's, the TX Dept of War had decided that the best replacement for an old Mirage F.1 was a new manufacture, updated Mirage F.1. The latest incarnation of the Mirage F.1, the Texas Army Air Corps F/A-9E Mirage 2 Plus, incorporates a number of improvements. The late production Mirages most notably have new high-performance PW1120 engines (13,550 lb st dry) vs. the old Atar 9K (11,023 lb st dry), a lightweight modified version of the APG-73 radar, a strike camera – giving (limited) photo-reconnaissance capability, improved ECM & IRCM, a FLIR/laser ranging turret, a wider range of armament options and a number of other improvements.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv708%2FBryanHevron%2Fmiragef1pic5.jpg&hash=cccb45149acd0c626661e3f2f5a29db583995a33)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv708%2FBryanHevron%2Fmiragef1pic4.jpg&hash=c2596f8ad2da6f0ad9e833e4eb5975cafd7541a1)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv708%2FBryanHevron%2Fmiragef1pic6.jpg&hash=c4db8b68adcad614fccf1ebbf6124c29a026c231)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv708%2FBryanHevron%2FMirageF19oclock.jpg&hash=4cd215e494de32cce66faee66002a1e10183a701)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv708%2FBryanHevron%2FMirageF1portside.jpg&hash=9b432c292129fc28b552aa66278a86929fea2bdc)
:cheers:, Happy Modeling & Merry Christmas, Bryan
Damn, that is a sexy beast, Bryan. Very cool. Enhanced nose, new engine, looks very cool indeed.
great, great, GREAT!!!! :bow:
Given the Mirage F.1 was a direct competitor to the F-16, what if the Mirage F1M-53 (Mirage F.1 with SNECMA M-53 engine) had beat the F-16 in the "deal of the century" and been selected by Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, and Norway and then gone on to be selected by other F-16 users. We could then see F.1s in the colours of:
- Belgium,
- Denmark,
- The Netherlands,
- Norway, and
- Any other F-16 users
Also, I wonder if the F.1 would have continued to be developed further in lieu of the Mirage 2000?
BTW, this was the Mirage F1-53:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aviastar.org%2Fpictures%2Ffrance%2Fdassault_mirage_f-1_m53.jpg&hash=1f0fb7d3cdbf1250abe7855d5b2da0336cf7d05d)
Will look to produce a line drawing shortly.
Regards,
Greg
Since we didn't have a credible fighter to sell at the time, the British response was to propose the Mirage F1M-53 for the fighter requirement, and the Jaguar for the strike requirement. That is to say, we were pushing a deal with less technical risk than the French one (because the Jag was already in sevice while the F1M-53 was developmental), with a better strike component, and one where the French got 75% of the work!
Needless to say (given M.Dassault's attitude to most things collaborative) the French rejected this and pushed for an all-F1 buy, which then failed........ :banghead:
That could have seen Jags in those four nation's colours as well as the F.1s. You could also envisage Norway and Denmark going for the maritime strike Jag with Penguin and Harpoon/Sea Eagle respectively.....:wub:
Would anybody like to guess what I've got planned for the VERY near future :rolleyes:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv470%2F280163%2FAll%2520Mirages%2Frefs1.jpg&hash=7c99583fda899d1c9c700e3ffc49bdc6f80b690e)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv470%2F280163%2FAll%2520Mirages%2Frefs2.jpg&hash=be77b6f8b6750acd4ec10c1ea5e8d94c854a33d7)
Ian
Quote from: Ian the Hunter-Gatherer on December 20, 2008, 06:39:40 AM
Would anybody like to guess what I've got planned for the VERY near future :rolleyes:
Tidy your desk??? :cheers:
Quote from: Dork the kit slayer on December 20, 2008, 07:03:03 AM
Tidy your desk??? :cheers:
Ooooohhh saucer of milk, table four :wub:
You got home yet ?
Ian
Quote from: GTX on December 19, 2008, 10:13:04 AM
Given the Mirage F.1 was a direct competitor to the F-16, what if the Mirage F1M-53 (Mirage F.1 with SNECMA M-53 engine) had beat the F-16 in the "deal of the century" and been selected by Belgium, Denmark, the Netherlands, and Norway and then gone on to be selected by other F-16 users. We could then see F.1s in the colours of:
- Belgium,
- Denmark,
- The Netherlands,
- Norway, and
- Any other F-16 users
Also, I wonder if the F.1 would have continued to be developed further in lieu of the Mirage 2000?
BTW, this was the Mirage F1-53:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aviastar.org%2Fpictures%2Ffrance%2Fdassault_mirage_f-1_m53.jpg&hash=1f0fb7d3cdbf1250abe7855d5b2da0336cf7d05d)
Will look to produce a line drawing shortly.
Regards,
Greg
http://www.whatifmodelers.com/index.php/topic,8955.0/highlight,f1em.html
My entry to this sympathetic board, three years ago!
The F1 M53 stand no chance against the F-16.
Better to give the thing to the french navy, to replace the Crusaders. Kill the Super Etendard in the same motion.
Then give the F1 M53 to the French air force, instead of the Mirage 2000.
Sold the Crusaders, Jaguars, Atar - Mirage F1 and the french 400*Mirage III to foreign customers.
Thanks to massive savings (the F1 M53 is cheap) you can have the Mirage 4000 in the late 70's...
Without the french navy to force the EFA into a lighter naval fighter, France stay in the talks in 1985. Maybe the 4000 is the basis of a join (Typhoon + Rafale) european fighter...
Quote from: Ian the Hunter-Gatherer on December 20, 2008, 06:39:40 AM
Would anybody like to guess what I've got planned for the VERY near future :rolleyes:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv470%2F280163%2FAll%2520Mirages%2Frefs1.jpg&hash=7c99583fda899d1c9c700e3ffc49bdc6f80b690e)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv470%2F280163%2FAll%2520Mirages%2Frefs2.jpg&hash=be77b6f8b6750acd4ec10c1ea5e8d94c854a33d7)
Ian
An F-16...Hat, coat, gone!
Quote from: Ian the Hunter-Gatherer on December 20, 2008, 06:39:40 AM
Would anybody like to guess what I've got planned for the VERY near future :rolleyes:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv470%2F280163%2FAll%2520Mirages%2Frefs1.jpg&hash=7c99583fda899d1c9c700e3ffc49bdc6f80b690e)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fv470%2F280163%2FAll%2520Mirages%2Frefs2.jpg&hash=be77b6f8b6750acd4ec10c1ea5e8d94c854a33d7)
Ian
A new bookshelf and a bigger desk?
;D
Ed
See what happens when those silly people at Dassault get things back-the-front(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc04.deviantart.com%2Ffs8%2Fi%2F2005%2F324%2Ff%2F6%2FShakes_Head_by_Kai_tak.gif&hash=e59315cebceebdec0d65dceb2964da48b74f4249):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2F1230fb41.jpg%3Ft%3D1241318143&hash=856c1d53681e764f96ec0a8ac9a9027b8306612a)
regards,
Greg
Quote from: GTX on May 02, 2009, 07:38:28 PM
See what happens when those silly people at Dassault get things back-the-front...
More silly things from people at Dassault! :thumbsup:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi703.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww37%2Fjmsfbip%2FMirageF1-tandem-wings.jpg&hash=d57ee6a1bc77c2a66a28aebc4647e900f55741f8)
Greg, I bet your mutant wings-at-the-tail version, with a big powerful engine, would be rather scarily optimized for higher speeds, she's got area ruling in spades.
Quote from: Sauragnmon on May 03, 2009, 07:05:54 AM
Greg, I bet your mutant wings-at-the-tail version, with a big powerful engine, would be rather scarily optimized for higher speeds, she's got area ruling in spades.
Well, you know some people are always worried about having a nice 'hourglass' figure on their lasses...
Regards,
Greg
A 3D preview of Greg's Mirage F.1 and another silly variant inspired by the XFV-12!
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi703.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww37%2Fjmsfbip%2FGTX-Mirage-F1-xvf12-MirageF1.jpg&hash=de14861127da9107819bd7964f8e6c13f752c16b)
That canard-F1 has just got to be put into plastic! :wub:
Quote from: GTX on May 02, 2009, 07:38:28 PM
See what happens when those silly people at Dassault get things back-the-front(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffc04.deviantart.com%2Ffs8%2Fi%2F2005%2F324%2Ff%2F6%2FShakes_Head_by_Kai_tak.gif&hash=e59315cebceebdec0d65dceb2964da48b74f4249):
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi37.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe68%2FGTwiner%2FMore%2520Creations%2F1230fb41.jpg%3Ft%3D1241318143&hash=856c1d53681e764f96ec0a8ac9a9027b8306612a)
regards,
Greg
I'm in the middle of doing something similar with the F-16 LOL
"Panzer"
Bumped 'cos I have a question about the Mirage F1.
What's the bulge just forward of the nose gear bay on some F1s? It's not there on Spanish ones and is also missing on some French ones too. The part in the Heller kit, it's an optional fit, looks like a strike camera fairing but it doesn't have a title that I can see anywhere.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg541.imageshack.us%2Fimg541%2F6370%2Fhdt1.jpg&hash=a4ed0d4e48231067f29b7cb9205b7f580cd059e2)
IIRC, it's a doppler radar aerial: some F1s have a nav/attack system and some don't.
EDIT: some F1s have a laser rangefinder in a similar position, but I still think the fairing in the pic is doppler.
IIRC it is a doppler altimeter, Weaver. I believe only Mirage F1CT carry it.
Looks like a CR machine of the BR11 recce squadron. Must be a small camera.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg193.imageshack.us%2Fimg193%2F1856%2Fimage01gp.jpg&hash=0c4b6554cd3b3b1da612d1ad732fd690bcf7c0e3)
Thanks for that gentlemen, the part in the Heller kit is in normal styrene, not transparent, but it has a 'window frame' moulded into the forward edge of it. That helps me some in a project I have in my head at the moment. ;)
Quote from: Weaver on July 24, 2013, 04:37:41 PM
IIRC, it's a doppler radar aerial: some F1s have a nav/attack system and some don't.
EDIT: some F1s have a laser rangefinder in a similar position, but I still think the fairing in the pic is doppler.
The LRF is in a simlar position, but has a different shape - more a kind of box-like wedge. This is the Doppler radar fairing, very similar to the Mirage IIIE.
The Mirage III E/R indeed has a Doppler telemetry system. As far as I known the Mirage F1CR/CT radar has ground/contour mapping capabilities and uses two type of cameras. The bigger/usual one is a panoramic camera (large windows) the smaller one is a vertical camera.
How did they manage to get so much aerodynamic performance out of such a small wing?
Ask Lockheed about the Starfighter...? :rolleyes:
Quote from: KJ_Lesnick on July 30, 2013, 07:20:24 PM
How did they manage to get so much aerodynamic performance out of such a small wing?
They're French.
That's all that need be said. ;D
Quote from: KJ_Lesnick on July 30, 2013, 07:20:24 PM
How did they manage to get so much aerodynamic performance out of such a small wing?
Well it's got every high-lift device known to Man for starters....
Quote from: PR19_Kit on July 25, 2013, 12:35:54 AM
Thanks for that gentlemen, the part in the Heller kit is in normal styrene, not transparent, but it has a 'window frame' moulded into the forward edge of it. That helps me some in a project I have in my head at the moment. ;)
Then it's the laser rangefinder of the Mirage F1CT (fighter bomber converted from retired Mirage F1C-200, kept their old serials in the 2xx range), not the camera housing of the Mirage F1CR (recco variant, serials in the 6xx range). Both variants are missing one of the 2 cannons of the F1C, but not on the same side. :wacko:
The pic you posted on the previous page is showing a F1CR.
profiles of F1CR (top 2) and F1CT (bottom 2) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/58/MirageF1family.jpg)
Mirage F1CT walkaround (http://www.master194.com/photo_avion/mirage-f1ct/index.htm)
Mirage F1CR walkaround (http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/luc_colin3/mirage_f-1cr/)
From wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_F1#Mirage_F1CR):
QuoteThe Mirage F1CR carries reconnaissance equipment, internally and externally:
A SAT SCM2400 Super Cyclone infrared linescan unit is installed in the space previously occupied by the port cannon.
A space under the nose can be used for a Thomson-TRT 40 panoramic camera or a Thomson-TRT 33 vertical camera.
The Cyrano IVM-R radar has extra ground- and contour-mapping modules.
A variety of sensors can be carried in external pods carried under the fuselage centreline. These include the Raphaël TH Side-Looking Airborne Radar (SLAR), the ASTAC ELINT pod and the RP35P optical reconnaissance pod.
A total of 64 Mirage F1CRs were ordered by the French Air Force. The first air force unit equipped with the CR was Escadron de Reconnaissance 2/33 which became operational in September 1983.
The Mirage F1CT is a ground attack version of the Mirage F1C-200. Following their replacement in the air defence role by the Mirage 2000, the French Air Force had a number of surplus Mirage F1C-200s, and in 1988 it launched a conversion programme to turn these aircraft into interim ground attack aircraft to replace elderly Mirage IIIEs and Mirage 5s. The Mirage F1CT program brought the avionics of the F1C up to the standard of the F1CR, with the radar upgraded with the additional air-to-ground modes of the Cyrano IVM-R, an improved navigation/attack system fitted, with a laser rangefinder fitted under the nose. It was fitted with new Mk 10 ejection seats, while improved radar detection and warning devices, chaff/flare dispensers, and secure radios were also added. It gained the ability to carry a variety of air-to-ground weapons, including rockets, cluster bombs and laser-guided bombs, while retaining the F1Cs air-to-air armament.
Two prototypes were converted by Dassault, the first flying on 3 May 1991, with a further 55 converted by the workshops of the French Air Force at Clermont Ferrand by 1995.
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on July 31, 2013, 12:23:02 AMAsk Lockheed about the Starfighter...? :rolleyes:
Well I suppose both have heavy wing-loadings, the F-1 had a better aspect ratio. Still the F-104 had a freaky power to weight ratio -- the figures listed at least for the F-1 don't seem as impressive and the F-1 was supposed to be a match for the F-16.
Who's saying the F-1 was a match for the F-16? I can't see that myself, nor do I recall seeing it claimed anywhere.
The early Mirage 2000 is a fair match for an early F-16. It's more of an interceptor than an air-superiority type, it's advantages over the F-16 being BVR missiles and better instantaneous turn rate, while the F-16 has more range and better sustained turn rate. Of course when you're looking at later versions of both aircraft with Micas and AMRAAMs the equation changes again.
Quote from: Weaver on July 31, 2013, 05:27:17 PMWho's saying the F-1 was a match for the F-16? I can't see that myself, nor do I recall seeing it claimed anywhere.
I'd almost swear I heard it mentioned somewhere. Truthfully I'm not sure how accurate the claim is judging by your reaction.
Agave radar equipped F.1 and Exocet, Canada.
Quote from: KJ_Lesnick on July 31, 2013, 06:20:19 PM
Quote from: Weaver on July 31, 2013, 05:27:17 PMWho's saying the F-1 was a match for the F-16? I can't see that myself, nor do I recall seeing it claimed anywhere.
I'd almost swear I heard it mentioned somewhere.
That would be the Sale of the Century deal when the Mirage competed against the F-16 and the Viggen for the NATO wide contract in the late 1970s. Roy Braybrook used to mention in an airshow in 1975 or 76 the Dassault executives watched the F-16 perform and they took their F-1 away for a quick overnight painting. Impossible to match in the air, Braybrook would write but the French were not the people to give up contesting in looks.
WeaverQuoteWell it's got every high-lift device known to Man for starters....
I'm not sure I understand what you mean? I looked at pictures and I saw an outboard and inboard slat; a two piece double-slotted flap, spoilers for roll-control
Mixing Rafale and Mirage F1. (top view fits with first side view)
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Mirage_Rafale.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/af4c7e3a-5c3e-4e15-93f8-9d450245a38d)
Crossing between Mirage F1 and 2000. Subtle but beautiful. IMO :thumbsup:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Mirage-F1-2000_x.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/9d1638c2-099f-4200-a086-109ba83bc2c8)
EuroFighter + Mirage F1.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/ef2000_swept(3).jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/4b833062-b287-450a-8d52-7619b44538ae)
Quote from: ysi_maniac on December 31, 2021, 01:03:20 PM
Crossing between Mirage F1 and 2000. Subtle but beautiful. IMO :thumbsup:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Mirage-F1-2000_x.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/9d1638c2-099f-4200-a086-109ba83bc2c8)
I like the notion of an F.1 scaled up by 10-15% and fitted with an M-53 (scale up to avoid the real F.1-M-53's bulged rear fuselage) and fitted with a Mirage 2000-style cockpit and nose, thus allowing for a decent sized radar.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Mirage-F104.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/90ce4280-e0e1-442e-8e7f-862ddc283470)
What if Kfir were done over Mirage F1?
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Kfir-F1.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/81f48529-a397-4d57-bb6b-67c8acd754ec)
Nice idea Carlos! :thumbsup:
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51869347204_c4886c8e41_o.jpg)
In this case, whiffery affects only to weapons: RW Mirage F1 never carried those missiles.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/MirageF-1C-200.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/0859c15d-2744-46bc-949c-ef0e86d1593a)
Quote from: ysi_maniac on February 23, 2022, 06:22:04 AM
In this case, whiffery affects only to weapons: RW Mirage F1 never carried those missiles.
it did, in Area 88 :mellow:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFgPvN9jPUI
Quote from: ysi_maniac on February 23, 2022, 06:22:04 AM
In this case, whiffery affects only to weapons: RW Mirage F1 never carried those missiles.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/MirageF-1C-200.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/0859c15d-2744-46bc-949c-ef0e86d1593a)
After looking at cross-section drawings of the F1, it does appear that if one were building new airframes, the provisions could be made for two conformal/recessed AIM-7 mounting points a'la F-4 Phantom. Cannon pack kind of gets in the way and maaaybe the alternators on the 9K50.
I like the idea of the Kfir-ized F.1 - but doing this stunt in hardware form would require tremendous body work, esp. for the tail section. The idea is charming, though.
Quote from: Dizzyfugu on May 23, 2022, 05:33:42 AM
I like the idea of the Kfir-ized F.1 - but doing this stunt in hardware form would require tremendous body work, esp. for the tail section. The idea is charming, though.
Well, Kfir-ized in hypothetical IRL function, or in appearance?
For function, the closest would be a Special-Hobby 1:72 Mirage-F1AZ and a F104 exhaust nozzle kit (early if lazy, late if not). The Mirage F1AZ's nose was certainly looks the Kfir part and made it a very effective strike platform. There was plenty of room in the fuselage and the intakes are bigger than the Kfir, so a hypothetical new-build Mirage F1 with a J79 under the hood isn't a farfetched idea.
-Doing this idea in 1:48 is more involved, but the Kinetic Kfir gives you 2x of both nose styles and the Kfir nose, with a little bit of spacing apart at the base fits the F1's decently enough to be able to blend.
For appearance, I'm comparing the Italscary 1:48 F1 and the Kinetic Kfir dry-fitted fuselages on my model bench and it appears the kfir's rudder will graft onto the F1's fuselage without much drama.
As a follow-on to my prior post, I'm sharing these pics more just to show what these shapes look like in plastic. My modeling is at this point more...mocking-up visual aids for my own daydreams of an alternate reality. So thats why these are here instead of the progress section, since these may never see paint and decals lol.
This is the Italscary (ESCI) 1/48 Mirage F-1 wearing the Kinetic Kfir nose. The nose was glued together with a bit of styrene spacer, filled in with UV putty, and then I sawed out a space for a scratchbuilt well for the F1AZ retracting IFR probe the ESCI kit came with. On the underside, some universal PE chaff/flare buckets were added in.
(https://i.imgur.com/rgWnm56.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/Tid0PZ7.jpg)
(https://i.imgur.com/zIvYvaB.jpg)
This is an adaptation of a part I made to go on the Kinetic Mirage-IIIE. The reconnaissance nose was cut and used as a base to glue the front cone of a Kinetic F-16 370gal wing tank onto. Perspective makes it look more bulbous than it really is, but this gives an idea of how the Mirage-F1 would look if say...modified to have something like the ELTA-2032 mounted.
(https://i.imgur.com/AvLOPTz.jpg)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52140016945_47549d8977_o.jpg)
Before Eurofighter project, the Spanish government was not happy with the "captive client" policy practiced by Marcel Dassault; they was also not happy with the prior authorization by the US government to be able to use weapons of US origin. So... what if they brazenly decided to reverse engineer the Mirage F1, F-18 and the J79 engine to produce an indigenous fighter?
Here you see the Casa-AFX. :thumbsup:
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Casa-AXF.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (http://"https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/Casa-AXF.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds")
Dassault Frankenstein Fighter
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/DassaultFrankenstein.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/DassaultFrankenstein.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds)
A very impressive & finely made masterpiece of a amphibious flying boat
Belated congratulations to ysi_maniac, Zero-Sen, GTX!
What-if the 2 Mirages below were the missing links between Mirage 5 and Mirage F1? :unsure: <_<
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kristofmeunier.fr%2FMirage8_eq.jpg&hash=fb1dfe05102ee39ac918f7b8ab0feca709577308)
=link http://www.kristofmeunier.fr/Mirage8_eq.jpg
Dassault/Mitsubishi-F1
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/MitsubishiDassault-F-1.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (http://"https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/MitsubishiDassault-F-1.png?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds")
As suggested by zenrat.
Quote from: glorious.tachikoma on May 22, 2022, 11:52:31 PMQuote from: ysi_maniac on February 23, 2022, 06:22:04 AMIn this case, whiffery affects only to weapons: RW Mirage F1 never carried those missiles.
(https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/j340/ysi_maniac/MirageF-1C-200.jpg?width=1920&height=1080&fit=bounds) (https://app.photobucket.com/u/ysi_maniac/a/caec78e4-057f-4fe9-82f4-083a43455765/p/0859c15d-2744-46bc-949c-ef0e86d1593a)
After looking at cross-section drawings of the F1, it does appear that if one were building new airframes, the provisions could be made for two conformal/recessed AIM-7 mounting points a'la F-4 Phantom. Cannon pack kind of gets in the way and maaaybe the alternators on the 9K50.
Oh, would love to see a profile of this "conformal/recessed Aim-7 mount"
ysi_maniac :wub:
MAD