What if

Hot Research Topics => Aircraft, Armor, Weapons and Ships by Topic => Topic started by: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 06:11:13 AM

Title: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 06:11:13 AM
Given the amount of whiff interest these things generate, I was surprised to see there wasn't a research/ideas thread for them, so now there is. :thumbsup:

BD-5 info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bede_BD-5
http://bd5.com/
https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation-communities-and-interests/homebuilt-aircraft-and-homebuilt-aircraft-kits/kits-and-plans/00---c/bede-bd-5


Original V-tailed prototype:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fyoko.tsuno.free.fr%2Fgraphics%2Fengins%2Flarge%2Fbd5a1.jpg&hash=a8f193f0d7ccef15aa12f8927d672e0e30a577a6)


BD-5 and -5J cutaways:
(https://www.the-blueprints.com/blueprints-depot/modernplanes/modern-ba-bn/and-finally-a-very-nice-cutaway-view-of-the-interior-of-a-bd-5b.png)
(https://robdebie.home.xs4all.nl/models/images/bd5-09.gif)


Yes, it really is that small!
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9c/41/06/9c410647a636d29fddec1660f7624ce9.jpg)


They DO have a military use! These SMART aircraft are/were BD-5Js used to simulate cruise missiles for training:
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faviadejavu.ru%2FImages6%2FAN%2FAN15-7%2F95-4.jpg&hash=cdd817c99c651ecda3697fd8959a9f0b2567e207)

Some oddball variations:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bd5.com%2Fbd5j.jpg&hash=0daa9ace4153890aa946584663e059b730a4874b)(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1000aircraftphotos.com%2FContributions%2FVanTilborg%2F9189.jpg&hash=93b116bc743f2c51af152be5eb86a42b9398dd73)
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Barlow_Acapella_100_N455CB.jpg)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.airport-data.com%2Fimages%2Faircraft%2Fsmall%2F000%2F040%2F040957.jpg&hash=f24080bfb05741dfab4e82627f1db4acb83854ca)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Falexnik1945.chat.ru%2Fw18.jpg&hash=d986f72887ed3e44dd1b8f8a4c9adad337b960f8)


Possibly the safest BD-5s ever!
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.autocycles.org%2Fimages%2Fbdtrike12.jpg&hash=dbcfa5720a5f4de1285ffb8dc2e5e34df102227e)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bd5.com%2Fbd5trainer.jpg&hash=7f6f8ad93368ccd05b3b840777d1bb2c49ab7e33)
(Yes, that was Bede's real 'simulator' setup... :o)


Why do I say that? Well reading the articles, they are quite 'crashy'... :o
(https://www.tc.gc.ca/media/images/ca-publications/tsb-a06o0141.jpg)(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fhallert.net%2Fimages%2Fbd5-crash.JPG&hash=311b87f3241002f237f12b21be12369b67d21e88)
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 06:14:58 AM
BD-10 info (not a happy story!):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bede_BD-10

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.coleskingdom.com%2Ffiles%2FBD10J-2.JPG&hash=e3c0c831a42d27726e988efdf851bfea00a36a94)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rccanada.ca%2Frccforum%2Fattachment.php%3Fattachmentid%3D89534%26amp%3Bd%3D1289141738&hash=8148a520ecbe03fbc74b5b7fcf7734731fc52743)

(https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/full_size_0151/1227249-large.jpg)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fdesign.ae.utexas.edu%2Fsubjet%2Fimages%2Fbd10-5.jpg&hash=c80d7975fe3167f729a944dc97ab7e3148f894e6)

(https://doc8643.com/static/img/aircrafts/3D/BD10.jpg)

Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 06:25:19 AM
Okay, so reading the articles, a few things strike me:

1. The aircraft is SO small that it's impractical: you need at least space for an overnight bag and a few tools!

2. The original V-tailed prototype suffered longitudinal stability issues, causing Bede to go over to a conventional tail. However, when you look at how much bigger that conventional tail was, you've got to wonder if the V-tail's problem wasn't it's V-ness, just the fact that it was too small.

3. Pilots of early versions reported longitudinal trim issues, and the solution developed by support companies was simply to lengthen the airframe a little.

4. The high thrust line is a contributory factor in crashes due to the pitch-up moment induced by an engine failure, leading to an avoidable stall. The prop version obviously needs that high thrust line to avoid a prop/ground interface, but the jet version really doesn't...


So, put all this together, and I can see a product-improved BD-5J with a longer fuselage (two or three feet), a baggage compartment behind the seat, the jet engine lowered so that it's thrust line goes through the centre of mass parallel to the fuselage datum, and a reversion to the V-tails, but with much more surface area. If you can find (or make) a suitable small turbofan (for better fuel efficiency), then the V-tail arrangement also makes room for enlarged conventional air intakes to feed the greater mass flow. :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 31, 2018, 09:27:29 AM
Quote from: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 06:25:19 AM

So, put all this together, and I can see a product-improved BD-5J with a longer fuselage (two or three feet), a baggage compartment behind the seat, the jet engine lowered so that it's thrust line goes through the centre of mass parallel to the fuselage datum, and a reversion to the V-tails, but with much more surface area. If you can find (or make) a suitable small turbofan (for better fuel efficiency), then the V-tail arrangement also makes room for enlarged conventional air intakes to feed the greater mass flow. :thumbsup:


....and longer wings.  ;D ;)
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: MiB on March 31, 2018, 10:51:57 AM
The James Bond's jet!!!
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 11:02:11 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on March 31, 2018, 09:27:29 AM
Quote from: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 06:25:19 AM

So, put all this together, and I can see a product-improved BD-5J with a longer fuselage (two or three feet), a baggage compartment behind the seat, the jet engine lowered so that it's thrust line goes through the centre of mass parallel to the fuselage datum, and a reversion to the V-tails, but with much more surface area. If you can find (or make) a suitable small turbofan (for better fuel efficiency), then the V-tail arrangement also makes room for enlarged conventional air intakes to feed the greater mass flow. :thumbsup:


....and longer wings.  ;D ;)

Maybe so actually: the prop-job's wings are longer, so if you've pushed the weight up enough, they could be justified.
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 11:26:18 AM
Hah! The BD-5 page has this photoshopped concept of a stretched one: great minds (and me) think alike!

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bd5.com%2Fbdmicro.jpg&hash=6097ae04db41bb0b06284ff405b409af3ee1ce20)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bd5.com%2FBdstrech.jpg&hash=e9496ba0f22b78bff3e6a735e4c7be0fb774b5aa)

From here: http://www.bd5.com/bd01001.htm I disagree with the website author: this definitely SHOULD be attempted!
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: JayBee on March 31, 2018, 11:46:20 AM
Quote from: PR19_Kit on March 31, 2018, 09:27:29 AM
Quote from: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 06:25:19 AM

So, put all this together, and I can see a product-improved BD-5J with a longer fuselage (two or three feet), a baggage compartment behind the seat, the jet engine lowered so that it's thrust line goes through the centre of mass parallel to the fuselage datum, and a reversion to the V-tails, but with much more surface area. If you can find (or make) a suitable small turbofan (for better fuel efficiency), then the V-tail arrangement also makes room for enlarged conventional air intakes to feed the greater mass flow. :thumbsup:


....and longer wings.  ;D ;)

The BD-5B had longer wings for cross country use,
and the BD-5S had even longer wings of 27'10" (8.48M) span.
Only one of this sailplane version of the BD-5 was built and it had considerable control problems, so it was not progressed with.
The longer fuselage might well have worked.

As far as the BD-5 goes, the Nov/Dec 2013 issue of Jets magazine has an artcle on the FLS Microjet which is a 40years down the line re-vamp of the BD-5.
It looks the same from the outside but has a lot of changes internally including a full electronic cockpit display.

The LS, and later Otaki re-pop, give the BD-5J and the BD-5B, with appropriate wings. It is easy enogh to cut down the wing for the original BD-5 span.

Jim
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 11:54:20 AM
Other interesting Bedery:

Bede XBD-2. That rear fuselage keel and high prop line look familiar, don't they? Only one built.
Laminar flow design with suction from 1600 holes generated by a compressor in the (twin) engine compartment.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aerofiles.com%2Fbede-xbd2.jpg&hash=11980471ec676c8950029023d1b862e1a228b830)
(https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/e5AAAOSwa39UsNVx/s-l300.jpg)


Bede BD-7. BD-5ish four-seater. Prototype never flew.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/4/3451/3968971550_7e8bf71987_b.jpg)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bd5.com%2FBd7-1.jpg&hash=c835f861ced0a963566c89075c8ae7f20424fdaf)
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Faviadejavu.ru%2FImages6%2FJS%2FJanes76%2F1%2F249-2.jpg&hash=417ab048154329405e77666ce5c378a9d8eb3714)


Bede BD-8. That rear fuselage keel etc, etc....  Only one built.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2F1000aircraftphotos.com%2FContributions%2FVisschedijk%2FAdditions%2F11609L-4.jpg&hash=7993302a4308004a684172823091120bdaebeda5)


Bede BD-12. Two-seat side-by-side BD-5, basically. Only one built.
(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bd5.com%2FBd12.jpg&hash=be8c843ae7dcd81eee55e1746440c5e1c9f1aadc)
(https://doc8643.com/static/img/aircrafts/large/BD12.jpg)



Bede BD-14. Stretched four-seat BD-12. Only one allegedly built, but there seem to be no pics of it... :unsure:
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/7/7c/Bede_BD-14_artist%27s_concept.jpg/300px-Bede_BD-14_artist%27s_concept.jpg)
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 02:31:20 PM
Aaaand thanks to them being mentioned on a totally unrelated thread, I'm please to point out that Draw Decal do decal sheets for the BD-5J in Bud Light and Coors Light schemes:

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.volusion.com%2Fapxvr.hyvea%2Fv%2Fvspfiles%2Fphotos%2F72-BD5-1-2.jpg%3F1421645548&hash=f734ada958d3b5790ef0c2e682b35d0abe5a5998)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fcdn3.volusion.com%2Fapxvr.hyvea%2Fv%2Fvspfiles%2Fphotos%2F72-BD5-2-2.jpg%3F1421645548&hash=05e6579c77446349eb83b2d125f9dd7ed66ed19b)

http://www.shopdrawdecal.com/searchresults.asp?cat=2207
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: PR19_Kit on March 31, 2018, 03:07:56 PM
Quote from: JayBee on March 31, 2018, 11:46:20 AM

It is easy enough to cut down the wing for the original BD-5 span.


Heresy, HERESY I say!  :banghead:
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 05:55:53 PM
Actually, there were FOUR different wing sizes on various BD-5 versions:

BD-5A : This had the original small wing for highest performance and agility, with a span of 14'3". It was supposed to have been dropped during development because it only showed an advantage near Vmax and had a very high stall speed (for a light aircraft) but due to the chaotic state of manufacture and delivery, some of the earliest kits were only shipped with an A-wing. ALL four aircraft completed with this wing crashed on their first flight, three on take-off and one on landing, with three fatalities. :o :angry:

BD-5B : This has the original 'touring' wing, with a span of 21'6". It's the standard wing for prop-driven BD-5s.

BD-5J : This has an 'intermediate' wing with a span of 17'.

BD-5G : This is a third party kit by Alturair Inc. which has a modern piston engine and the 17' wing.

BD-5S : This is the unsuccessful sailplane version of which only one was made. I've seen a figure of 38' for the wingspan, but I'm not sure that it's right.

Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: rickshaw on March 31, 2018, 08:00:21 PM
I think the high thrust line of the propeller powered BD-5 could be fixed with longer landing gear legs.  That would allow the prop-shaft to be lowered and there wouldn't be any risk of a ground strike.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 08:15:32 PM
Quote from: rickshaw on March 31, 2018, 08:00:21 PM
I think the high thrust line of the propeller powered BD-5 could be fixed with longer landing gear legs.  That would allow the prop-shaft to be lowered and there wouldn't be any risk of a ground strike.   :thumbsup:

Shouldn't be a problem with the main gear, but making the nosewheel leg longer could be problematic: it pivots about six inches behind the nose and the tire's already at risk of getting pregnant by the pilot... :o

Another solution that occurs to me is to move the prop shaft down, then replace the prop with a multi-blade ducted fan of about the same diameter as the height of the fuselage. As a bonus, the increased side area might let you reduce the size of the fin a bit.
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: rickshaw on March 31, 2018, 09:15:43 PM
Quote from: Weaver on March 31, 2018, 08:15:32 PM
Quote from: rickshaw on March 31, 2018, 08:00:21 PM
I think the high thrust line of the propeller powered BD-5 could be fixed with longer landing gear legs.  That would allow the prop-shaft to be lowered and there wouldn't be any risk of a ground strike.   :thumbsup:

Shouldn't be a problem with the main gear, but making the nosewheel leg longer could be problematic: it pivots about six inches behind the nose and the tire's already at risk of getting pregnant by the pilot... :o

Just increase the length of the nose.  Might need a taller fin as well.   :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2018, 03:53:31 AM
Here's another mad possibility: a rocket-powered 'BD-5R'.

Fit two hybrid rocket motors: one in place of the normal jet nozzle and one at the bottom of the tail, both fed from the same liquid oxygen tank to make sure they cut out at the same time, thus avoiding power-off pitch-up. Hybrid rockets are throttleable, restartable, and are one of the safest rocket technologies around. They're also relatively simple and reliable, and have even been proposed for a civilian rocket-racing league. Virgin Galactic's Spaceship One used a hybrid rocket.

All you have to do them is paint it up in Me 163 colours....  :wacko: :wacko: :wacko:

If you're going to model this, don't forget the white condensation on the fuselage where the cryogenic LOX tank lives...

Alternatively, if you want an even more authentic Komet experience, you could use HTP as the oxidiser, using it as a monopropellant to run it's own turbopump. If you don't fancy getting popsicled by a LOX leak or melted by an HTP one, you can also use Nitrous Oxide, which makes leaks both much less lethal and much funnier...  ;)

Hybrid rocket motors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid-propellant_rocket
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: JayBee on April 01, 2018, 07:10:52 AM
OK concerning the wings, Weaver is correct in that there are four different wings.
Janes World Sailplanes and Motor Gliders (1978) gives the span of the BD-5S as 27'10" (8.48m).


(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/2769/TiVZjd.jpg)


The quoted span looks like it fits with the photo.


Here are a couple of photos of my BD-5S that has been under build for longer than I can remember.
The new wing is a single piece of plasticard worked down to the correct (close enough) profile. One shot showing the u/c arrangement.


(https://imageshack.com/a/img922/4336/NqN1HH.jpg)


(https://imageshack.com/a/img924/867/dC85mu.jpg)



Finally a shot showing the different wings of the BD-5, BD-5B and BD-5S.


(https://imageshack.com/a/img923/5469/fngaNS.jpg)



Yes they have all been under build for a long time.
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Air21 on April 01, 2018, 10:26:31 AM
https://easttexas.craigslist.org/for/d/single-seat-airplane-kit/6498250755.html

There's a kit in East Texas if anyone is interested  :mellow:
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2018, 11:44:37 AM
Quote from: JayBee on April 01, 2018, 07:10:52 AM
OK concerning the wings, Weaver is correct in that there are four different wings.
Janes World Sailplanes and Motor Gliders (1978) gives the span of the BD-5S as 27'10" (8.48m).

That figure seems a lot more believable. :thumbsup:

Nice models!
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: kitnut617 on April 01, 2018, 01:55:36 PM
Seems a bit ironic that we've got a BD5 thread going and some chat about C-5 Galaxys' on another thread or two, so here's a couple of pics of them together, both 1/72 scale

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvillage.photos%2Fimages%2Fuser%2F8f3973c9-3f0e-4b54-80e2-017121c0bf9f%2F04b258fe-ffc9-4d9e-98ca-97893ae9c6b5.jpg&hash=7b8a352c7824a624dea43efc52ea9fa26421cfa2)

(https://www.whatifmodellers.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fvillage.photos%2Fimages%2Fuser%2F8f3973c9-3f0e-4b54-80e2-017121c0bf9f%2Fef8ffbb4-5b7e-4caf-b020-b465d3b38012.jpg&hash=1427547ed63cb8fd0c1e6c9d127c6349ba06de78)
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2018, 01:58:00 PM
LMAO - reminds me of the old airshow tannoy announcement:

"Ladies and Gentlemen, please note that if the weather takes a turn for the worse, the flying display will continue inside the C-5..."
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: zenrat on April 01, 2018, 06:09:37 PM
I have a 1/72 resin copy of one of these some nice person here sent me in with some parts.  I want to say it was Kiwizac and apologise most profusely if I have mis-remembered.
I was thinking of making it into an air launched cruise missile.
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Rick Lowe on April 01, 2018, 06:18:43 PM
Quote from: zenrat on April 01, 2018, 06:09:37 PM
I have a 1/72 resin copy of one of these some nice person here sent me in with some parts.  I want to say it was Kiwizac and apologise most profusely if I have mis-remembered.
I was thinking of making it into an air launched cruise missile.

Ooh - how about a modern version of the Ohka Piloted Rocket Bomb?   ;D :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Weaver on April 01, 2018, 07:43:56 PM
Quote from: zenrat on April 01, 2018, 06:09:37 PM
I have a 1/72 resin copy of one of these some nice person here sent me in with some parts.  I want to say it was Kiwizac and apologise most profusely if I have mis-remembered.
I was thinking of making it into an air launched cruise missile.

Well given that the SMART BD-5Js are actually used to simulate cruise missiles, that seems like an excellent idea.

Air-launching a manned one seems like good sport too... :wacko:
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Rick Lowe on April 01, 2018, 08:55:28 PM
Quote from: Weaver on April 01, 2018, 07:43:56 PM
Quote from: zenrat on April 01, 2018, 06:09:37 PM
I have a 1/72 resin copy of one of these some nice person here sent me in with some parts.  I want to say it was Kiwizac and apologise most profusely if I have mis-remembered.
I was thinking of making it into an air launched cruise missile.

Well given that the SMART BD-5Js are actually used to simulate cruise missiles, that seems like an excellent idea.

Air-launching a manned one seems like good sport too... :wacko:

*PULL!*
Title: Re: Bede BD-5, BD-5J, BD-10 etc..
Post by: Burncycle on July 22, 2018, 08:51:35 AM
The LH-10 Ellipse is a perfect spiritual followon to the BD-5, we just need a jet powered version!  ;D

(https://i.imgur.com/UvDJX5j.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/8fBLJbe.jpg)

There's even a proposed armed version!

(https://i.imgur.com/UBh0mZW.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/ztyvNcn.jpg)

Now imagine one with laser-guided 120mm Mortar Rounds as baby laser guided bombs

There was also a Hellfire II IIR Proposal (The IIR hellfire could be self-designated like the Maverick missile).  Except then the armament would cost more than the airplane!

Add some stingers, and mount it on a ZELL Launcher, and you have a manned SAM with no runway needed

(https://i.imgur.com/JIy2FOE.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/9i9ZrUD.jpg)